Coal mines are exceptionally dangerous places. They require constant ventilation against methane accumulation and pumping out water that seeps in all the time. The soil is friable and there is a careful trade-off between personel safety and resources invested into consolidation and securing the galleries against collapse.
A mine is not some kind of free underground cave, it's an industrial installation requiring constant engineering. They have 24/7 command centers that monitor and correct safety parameters before anyone is allowed to go in. When mines close, they are flooded, refilled or sealed, to prevent underground explosions and collapse that could kill people above. The closure of mines is itself a dangerous and expensive operation.
Bottom line, if it ain't worth going down there and picking unlimited quantities of coal worth $70/ton, it most certainly isn't worth it to invest and labour for months in a high risk environment, only to get limited quantities of agricultural produce worth $200-$300/ton.
In addition to the dangerous environment, it's also likely to be contaminated with a lot of toxic stuff. In the closed German coal mines the pumps have to run 24/7 to prevent both the rising water from flooding the region* and the flame retardants and other poisons from reaching the surface waters.
* some areas like the city of Essen have dropped by 16m, others up to 40m due to mining. Running the pumps to prevent flooding is considered part of the Ewigkeitskosten (eternal costs, see: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ewigkeitskosten ).
FTA - You're looking at about £30,000 to set up one shaft and the running costs are very low - less than the energy consumed by three houses each year. With natural sunlight, the costs are even less
Looks like they thought this through far more than you give them credit.
If startup-ey media is anything to go by, agg-tech has some weird ideas about what the problems are with aggriculture.
The water and land required for vegetables farming isn't a problem. We don't need to move lettuce production into buildings, mines or submarine farms.
Most of the water & land is used for cereal farming.
Whatever you can grow in a mine or a skyscraper can be grown on a "small" farm near a city. Whatever water saving, pesticide minimizing, or other benefits you get have little to do with location.
There are plenty of led/hydroponic farms in normal farming places.
>We don't need to move lettuce production into buildings, mines or submarine farms.
Food crops in general absolutely, some like lettuce could actually benefit from being done indoors though as you could limit exposure to things like E. coli compared to traditionally grown lettuce.
Growing in a largely enclosed system also allows you to prevent runoff, use the least amount of water possible, control all environmental variables etc BUT unless we suddenly develop fusion today and magically start bringing hundreds of fusion plants online a year, using the sun is always going to be more efficient than grow lights.
The water is forward looking at least given aquifer depletion issues. Land itself is just silly to try to minimize for agriculture however - while you want more yield the strategy is cheap land for farming. Transportation costs (cheap in bulk but still a sizable component given how farmers' markets are cheaper), and freshness premiums might make it viable to centralize agriculture but certainly not land cost.
10% of the entire UK's area available in mines? That seems a tad on the high side at first glance.
No mention of flooding, collapse and the many seams that were well under 6' high. I remember claims that many mines would be inaccessible thanks to flooding and collapse within days of closure during all the mine closures of the 80s. No idea how much of that was hype to try and avoid closures of course.
So what percentage is worth opening up again for possible agriculture? Based on the photo of two chaps using an old shelter the size of a poly tunnel, very very inefficiently, barely any.
Seriously, having seen commercial poly tunnels, I'd expect to have the staging shown but wide enough that a human can only just squeeze down the centre path, and another level, and the entire floor area allocated to growing as well.
[NB I found out about this when researching buying a house outside of Edinburgh - we ended up getting a house near an old limestone mine in Fife although where our house is it's volcanic rock with no mine workings under us].
Edit2: In case anyone is wondering here is a geology map viewer for the UK:
Interesting trade-off - much higher energy costs, but on the other hand, mine shafts are probably largely pest-free. No birds, certainly, and probably a much smaller rate of insect/fungus/mite infection as there's less opportunity for them to be blown in on the wind. The energy costs probably wouldn't be offset by the pest-prevention costs - but it might reduce the damage to the environment, and the increasing fungicide resistance, caused by widespread spraying.
How is this at all better ecologically, considering energy costs? The electrical demands to operate a mine are huge, most of which are used in pumping water out of the mine and air conditioning to make the atmosphere breathable. Air conditioning would arguably go up, since it is possible for plants to suffocate themselves with O2 in an enclosed environment.
To me, this looks like a far worse ecological disaster than conventional farming unless we develop some form of truly free energy like practical fusion power.
In cold climate it might not be so much more energy because greenhouses need to be heated in winters and it takes a lot of energy too. For instance 2kW heater is not much, compared to a 2kW light fixture which is like 5 strong led consoles that can grow a lot of lettuce (and also provide enough heating at the same time). If you use rotating stands you can optimize it even more. I think much bigger problem will be controlling the humidity and preventing molds from attacking the plants.
It is very noticeable on cold days that there is a plume of warm moist air coming out of the old workings. Indeed, when I first saw it I thought there must be a fire (although I soon realised what it actually was).
Also, presumably, a big space advantage. Using an existing tunnel network should be easier than having to build a giant building or dig out new tunnels.
Just about the only ex mines which are useful afterwards are salt mines, some of which are used for climate controlled storage facilities or data centers. Not coal mines.
And the occasional hard rock nickel mine, one of which was repurposed into the Sudbury neutrino observatory.
The Sanford Underground Research Facility is in the former Homestake gold mine in South Dakota. https://www.sanfordlab.org/
Work recently began to prepare the facility for the massive DUNE neutrino detectors, which will be to neutrino physics what the LHC is for high-energy physics. http://www.dunescience.org/
When I see all these high tech plans to grow food in developed countries, I always wonder how developing countries who sell food to developed countries will get reliable markets.
But then again no one owes poor countries a decent livelihood.
> I always wonder how developing countries who sell food to developed countries will get reliable markets.
They'll stop growing specialty stuff for export and start growing a more diverse range of crops and sell them domestically which will lower food prices and should benefit their economies in the long run.
The US exports 40% of the corn it grows, uses another 20% for ethanol production but we import 40% of our fruits and 20-something percent of our vegetables. We also exports absurd amounts of other grains. If we grew most of our crops for domestic use and stopped importing tropical and out of season fruits and vegetables, we'd have much more sustainable farming practices, less waste, considerably smaller carbon emissions from all the importing and exporting, etc.
Go to your grocery, you'll see mounds and mounds of bizarre looking alien pods which are allegedly fruit and vegetables from far off lands. I can't possibly imagine they sell even 50% of what the stores receive because most people simply have no idea what it is or how to prepare it.
Hell, I have problem finding sweet peppers that are molded and/or aren't wilted leathery looking things when I go to the grocery each week. Week after week, store after store, without fail. That's waste and none of it is grown domestically (mostly Mexico although occasionally the stores near me will have stuff from South America).
For plants growing in vertical shafts, it seems to me that plants will have to get used to grow somehow horizontally or at an 90 angle (last 2 figures in the article [0]). How would that be possible? I think this may come to a misunderstanding and an oversimplification of this technique and plants would still grow vertically and upwards.
Great idea! Why would we grow plants where the sunlight is? Illogical! Preposterous! Let’s bury them in caves full of toxins and industrial waste, then grow them using expensive artificial lighting!
Pasture raised cattle, and other grazing animals, can actually be very environmentally friendly. Properly managed pasture requires very little to no fertilizer, pesticides, or herbicides and acts as a net carbon sink. It can also have a large amount of biodiversity. The problem right now is feedlot style operations, where corn is grown as a mono-culture in one place and then shipped to a feedlot.
[+] [-] yholio|7 years ago|reply
A mine is not some kind of free underground cave, it's an industrial installation requiring constant engineering. They have 24/7 command centers that monitor and correct safety parameters before anyone is allowed to go in. When mines close, they are flooded, refilled or sealed, to prevent underground explosions and collapse that could kill people above. The closure of mines is itself a dangerous and expensive operation.
Bottom line, if it ain't worth going down there and picking unlimited quantities of coal worth $70/ton, it most certainly isn't worth it to invest and labour for months in a high risk environment, only to get limited quantities of agricultural produce worth $200-$300/ton.
[+] [-] chokma|7 years ago|reply
* some areas like the city of Essen have dropped by 16m, others up to 40m due to mining. Running the pumps to prevent flooding is considered part of the Ewigkeitskosten (eternal costs, see: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ewigkeitskosten ).
edit: fixed numbers, added link
[+] [-] starbeast|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mattmanser|7 years ago|reply
Looks like they thought this through far more than you give them credit.
[+] [-] netcan|7 years ago|reply
The water and land required for vegetables farming isn't a problem. We don't need to move lettuce production into buildings, mines or submarine farms.
Most of the water & land is used for cereal farming.
Whatever you can grow in a mine or a skyscraper can be grown on a "small" farm near a city. Whatever water saving, pesticide minimizing, or other benefits you get have little to do with location.
There are plenty of led/hydroponic farms in normal farming places.
[+] [-] ryanmercer|7 years ago|reply
Food crops in general absolutely, some like lettuce could actually benefit from being done indoors though as you could limit exposure to things like E. coli compared to traditionally grown lettuce.
Growing in a largely enclosed system also allows you to prevent runoff, use the least amount of water possible, control all environmental variables etc BUT unless we suddenly develop fusion today and magically start bringing hundreds of fusion plants online a year, using the sun is always going to be more efficient than grow lights.
[+] [-] Nasrudith|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] NeedMoreTea|7 years ago|reply
No mention of flooding, collapse and the many seams that were well under 6' high. I remember claims that many mines would be inaccessible thanks to flooding and collapse within days of closure during all the mine closures of the 80s. No idea how much of that was hype to try and avoid closures of course.
So what percentage is worth opening up again for possible agriculture? Based on the photo of two chaps using an old shelter the size of a poly tunnel, very very inefficiently, barely any.
Seriously, having seen commercial poly tunnels, I'd expect to have the staging shown but wide enough that a human can only just squeeze down the centre path, and another level, and the entire floor area allocated to growing as well.
I'm gonna need a bit more convincing on this. :)
[+] [-] arethuza|7 years ago|reply
http://mapapps2.bgs.ac.uk/coalauthority/home.html
There are a lot of old mines in the UK!
[NB I found out about this when researching buying a house outside of Edinburgh - we ended up getting a house near an old limestone mine in Fife although where our house is it's volcanic rock with no mine workings under us].
Edit2: In case anyone is wondering here is a geology map viewer for the UK:
http://mapapps.bgs.ac.uk/geologyofbritain/home.html
[+] [-] camtarn|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] zrobotics|7 years ago|reply
To me, this looks like a far worse ecological disaster than conventional farming unless we develop some form of truly free energy like practical fusion power.
[+] [-] ivanhoe|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] timClicks|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] arethuza|7 years ago|reply
https://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/765213
It is very noticeable on cold days that there is a plume of warm moist air coming out of the old workings. Indeed, when I first saw it I thought there must be a fire (although I soon realised what it actually was).
[+] [-] rococode|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] walrus01|7 years ago|reply
And the occasional hard rock nickel mine, one of which was repurposed into the Sudbury neutrino observatory.
[+] [-] retzkek|7 years ago|reply
Work recently began to prepare the facility for the massive DUNE neutrino detectors, which will be to neutrino physics what the LHC is for high-energy physics. http://www.dunescience.org/
[+] [-] war1025|7 years ago|reply
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soudan_Underground_Mine_State_...
[+] [-] sesm|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rtkwe|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] muriithi|7 years ago|reply
But then again no one owes poor countries a decent livelihood.
[+] [-] ryanmercer|7 years ago|reply
They'll stop growing specialty stuff for export and start growing a more diverse range of crops and sell them domestically which will lower food prices and should benefit their economies in the long run.
The US exports 40% of the corn it grows, uses another 20% for ethanol production but we import 40% of our fruits and 20-something percent of our vegetables. We also exports absurd amounts of other grains. If we grew most of our crops for domestic use and stopped importing tropical and out of season fruits and vegetables, we'd have much more sustainable farming practices, less waste, considerably smaller carbon emissions from all the importing and exporting, etc.
Go to your grocery, you'll see mounds and mounds of bizarre looking alien pods which are allegedly fruit and vegetables from far off lands. I can't possibly imagine they sell even 50% of what the stores receive because most people simply have no idea what it is or how to prepare it.
Hell, I have problem finding sweet peppers that are molded and/or aren't wilted leathery looking things when I go to the grocery each week. Week after week, store after store, without fail. That's waste and none of it is grown domestically (mostly Mexico although occasionally the stores near me will have stuff from South America).
[+] [-] onemoresoop|7 years ago|reply
[0] https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/76A1/production/...
[+] [-] dmurray|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] code_beers|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] zeristor|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] adrianN|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|7 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] tbarbugli|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] neaden|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mxuribe|7 years ago|reply
1. Less land needed for actual growth of cattle.
2. Less runoff from cattle.
[+] [-] simon_000666|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] aaron695|7 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] speedplane|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] vorticalbox|7 years ago|reply
The tunnels wouldn't get big changes in temperature, would only get the water it needs and you could have light running 24/7.
[+] [-] ant6n|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] simonh|7 years ago|reply