I wish it talked more about the actual logistics of manufacturing the watch. Is there a factory in china that will take your design and ship you a box of made watches?
This companies are no different than any other company in the history of business.
The only thing I can think of is the fact that in this case you can easily track the supplier and find out the "original price" of the item in a way that is very hard to do for let's say a pair of Nike shoes, but that's about it. Walmart is also full of these watches and you can believe they don't sell them for $5.
Or do you really think it costs Dell exactly $679,95 to build a laptop on one of their entirely owned factories where they manufacture and store every single component that goes into it? And, if you call them now they even give you a $200 discount because wouldn't you know it they just happened to have a "promotion" just for you?
There is no such thing as a free anything, yet when Apple offers FREE BEATS WITH EVERY MAC PURCHASE no magazine would dare to call them out on the obvious fact that both of these items are so "overpriced" that they can even afford to give one away "for free" and still come out ahead. They instead run "articles" praising what a great value the offer is and also you should act now before the sale is over.
This "article" could be written about any company, literally any company.
I think there's a difference between a company selling their goods at a profit and this not-quite-scam where a popup company not-quite-lies to their customers and dropships cheap products from somewhere else.
Which is why I thought this point in the article was a great summation:
> Maybe this explains what’s so galling to people about the Folsom & Co. not-really-scam: It simply lays bare the categorical deception at the heart of all branding and retail. The different watch values are, in the strictest sense, speech acts: the watch is $29.99 because someone said it’s $29.99. It’s $29.99 because a certain person is wearing it on Instagram; it’s $29.99 because it’s photographed next to flannel and a Chemex. While “Bradley” of “Bradley’s men’s shop” may not be the most fleshed-out character, he – and the entire existence of Folsom & Co., Soficoastal, etc. – are examples of the now-household term, “brand storytelling.” And the internet makes it possible for anyone to tell any story, about anything, from anywhere.
It makes you realize that there really are tons of huge cases of products whose value is solely a result of marketing. My favorite current example is how YouTube influencers have completely upended the makeup industry, with each brand trying to convince you that this pallette of brown and red eyeshadow is imminently Superior to some other brown and red eyeshadow, when the input costs of all of them is literally under $1.
I think the key difference is in how truthful the marketing stories are. Apple/microsoft sell you a hypothetical future, while these watch "brands" sell a made-up past. Neither are 100% facts but one is clearly less savory than the other.
I chatted briefly with the author of this piece, who said that apparently the only people making money on these watches are online "marketing gurus" who will teach you how to get rich selling free watches.
It's absolutely true. I sell screen printed t-shirts that I design and print myself, as a hobby, and as such I spend some time trying to improve my sales. The facebook group I'm part of is lousy with people trying to sell these same cheap watches, jewelry, etc., complaining that they can get lots of traffic via Instagram but no sales. I would wager 50% of them at least will never make a single sale. The rest might make a few sales but never come close to a positive ROI.
> J. Crew now uses the brand for a line of high-end women’s clothing. Its marketing draws heavily on the age of the original Madewell, and J. Crew is fond of including “since 1937” under the logo. This is part of a larger effort to portray the Madewell brand in retrospect as a venerable, solid company known for craftsmanship and quality.
This is a really old strategy for getting credibility. Some scholars believe that Sun Tzu's Art of War is really much younger than what is claimed in the book. They believe that Sun Tzu focused on the book's supposed age and history, in order to give it more credibility.
The article is really not very much about the concept of a "free lunch" as more of a concept of how these pseudo-watch brands are laying bare the absurdity inherent in all fashion and branding.
I love this! I commented on this article about my own experience starting a "watch business" when it was originally posted about a year ago and it seemed to get a decent amount of votes and attention so I figure I'll re-post it below:
So a few years back I started a watch company in a similar way.
I think I was actually one of the first to do it, since when I started I couldn't find many competitors. I tried a million kinds of promotions, from "free, you just pay for shipping" to offering people discounts and referral codes.
I actually created my own watch designs (well, modifications of the face, case, and strap with the same Chinese movement.) Some of my improvements started to be used by the manufacturers.
I'm not at all invested in it anymore: I left the business after selling a substantial, but not massive number of watches and finding that it wasn't terribly profitable if you included the cost of advertising, shipping, and (most importantly) my own time.
My own "watch company" was more real in a few ways: watches that I did in fact design myself, shipped from my address in the US, and the quality of the watches was actually quite good. To this day I wear a watch from my company and it has held up to an incredible amount of abuse. I say this as someone who (used to) collect watches. I also was upfront about the cost of shipping and the watch itself - I might have, for example, a banner that says "Free 3-Day US Shipping" and then the price of the watch would be clearly labeled as $20, so people would know that they would only be paying a total of $20 for the watch. The prices varied a lot over time, from $10 to $40 per watch, but surprisingly my profit was never huge even though I only spent about $3 on the watch itself and $7 on shipping.
If anyone's curious about the whole thing (and lives in the Netherlands) I still have hundreds of these watches and I'd be happy to sit down over a coffee, tell my stories from the business and show the watches. (My email's in my profile.)
----
A few comments I'd like to add now, in 2018:
1) the watches (mine & that of other "companies") are of a surprisingly high quality in many cases. Not always, but often. For example, my watch has survived everything from bilge fluids to boiling water and it's the same cheap one I sold. Definitely far more durable than a comparable mechanical watch. I can see myself still using this thing 10+ years down the line. Furthermore, it actually does look classy and I get compliments on it. Most of the time, if you buy a cheap $3 Chinese alternative to something that's normally 10-1000x the price, it is neither beautiful nor durable.
2) The unexpectedly high quality of the watches is what fueled the explosion of sites IMO. You don't see "free earbuds", "free clock", or "free keyboard" sites, despite the fact that all 3 of these things are available for under $5 shipped from China. What I think happened is that people bought a watch on a whim, then it arrived and they realized "wow, this feels like a premium product!" Which it did! I was blown away when I first saw the quality level and instantly thought I should start a business. I suspect hundreds of other people had this same "eureka!" moment. When you get a $5 Aliexpress keyboard, it feels and looks like it cost $5 to make, and it excites nobody. Furthermore, Amazon makes a $13 keyboard with great reviews, and being Amazon it ships with Prime instead of "30-to-infinity day slow-boat-from-China shipping." Meanwhile, these watches felt like they cost at least $20 to make, and the only competitors for classy analog watches would be $50-100 or so, but they cost $3 (drop)shipped!
3) I highly doubt anyone made much money. When I started, dropshipping was not a thing the manufacturers offered (probably the reason why I was one of the first.) When manufacturers started offering dropshipping, these "businesses" exploded because you could suddenly run them entirely behind a laptop. The problem, of course, was that the number of such "companies" exploded, all competing for the same customers, Facebook ads, Google results, "underground marketing" spots, etc etc. That led to people getting a bit suspicious. If you saw one ad for a cool watch, maybe you were interested, but if you saw 20 in a week, all suspiciously similar, you'd think something's up.
>Instagram-savvy version of the fake watches one sees being hawked on the sidewalks of tourist cities.
I bought a "Tagheuer" watch on the streets of NYC for five dollars. At a glance, it looked OK but by the end of a day's wear it had completely self destructed.
I bought a 'Cartier' ladies quartz watch on the street in Bangkok for my wife twenty years ago for five USD and it still works. The band has lost some of its black colour but apart from that it works perfectly, keeps good time, and looks pretty good.
Don't know it it is true but the movement inside claims to be Swiss.
Dropshipping from China has a bad reputation but it can be done correctly and ethically. You can say you manufacture and ship from your partners in China, and you can pay for modifications, better QA like with stickers and number engraving and traceability, tracking in the shipment... even for some certified ISO processes.
Not defending what this fake stuff brands are doing, and they not only exist for watches but also for jewelry, leather bracelets, etc, etc... but just saying it's also comparable to what cheap shopping mall brands sometimes do with accessories and watches but adding renting and expensive place in the middle and marking up everything way more.
Feels and is a scam. Worst ever. I live in SF where it "claims to be" Why the hell is my shipment coming from Shanghai?
Going to miss my girlfriends gift date. WASTE of MONEY!
What kind of person gifts their girlfriend a free watch
> "25.
Maybe this explains what’s so galling to people about the
Folsom & Co. not-really-scam: It simply lays bare the
categorical deception at the heart of all branding and
retail. The different watch values are, in the strictest
sense, speech acts: the watch is $29.99 because someone
said it’s $29.99. It’s $29.99 because a certain person
is wearing it on Instagram; it’s $29.99 because it’s
photographed next to flannel and a Chemex. While “Bradley”
of “Bradley’s men’s shop” may not be the most fleshed-out
character, he – and the entire existence of Folsom & Co.,
Soficoastal, etc. – are examples of the now-household term,
“brand storytelling.” And the internet makes it possible
for anyone to tell any story, about anything, from
anywhere."
---
> " thateffingasian: Capitalism is making your own product and selling it. Capitalism isn't buying a piece of shit and telling people they're worth 25x the price, and lying to them about the actual value of the product. Your idea of capitalism is fucked up @soficoastal. Then the idiots blocked me, LOL. "
If Capitalism isn't buying shit and lying about it to sell it for higher, I don't know what Capitalism is. This is only a difference in degree, not kind.
"If Capitalism isn't buying shit and lying about it to sell it for higher, I don't know what Capitalism is. This is only a difference in degree, not kind."
I'm neutral on the question in this case, but really, any discussion of "capitalism" that goes beyond chapter one, page one of an undegrad economics textbook covers the point that efficient markets are not deceptive markets. Participants are assumed to share equal information. HN's understanding of capitalist theory seems to begin and end at the phrase, "supply and demand", and everything that has a two-sided market is otherwise A-OK.
In this particular case, consumers are sort-of informed, but it's also a lot harder to be informed than it used to be. I'm someone who tries to find high-quality items, and even I screw up on a regular basis. I wouldn't fall for this one, though.
Capitalism is where the gatekeepers on what can be produced and by whom, control through (typically hereditary) wealth and then use that position to capture the majority of and wealth produced (or wealth harvested in the case of unproductive business such as rent seeking). Dishonesty is not a necessary part but certainly occurs in any market where it is favored.
Incidentally, notions of supply and demand are part of a free market which does not necessarily have to be run by capital.
If scammy, semi-fraudulent watch sites constitute our dystopia, I’m relieved.
These scams are as old as commerce. Just more easily propagated using modern tools. They’re the reason Consumer Reports and reveiw publications exist. Caveat emptor.
LeoPanthera|7 years ago
https://imgur.com/a/6CNO8
beloch|7 years ago
DenisM|7 years ago
I just might be tempted to make a limited run.
irrational|7 years ago
pizza|7 years ago
qwerty000|7 years ago
redial|7 years ago
The only thing I can think of is the fact that in this case you can easily track the supplier and find out the "original price" of the item in a way that is very hard to do for let's say a pair of Nike shoes, but that's about it. Walmart is also full of these watches and you can believe they don't sell them for $5.
Or do you really think it costs Dell exactly $679,95 to build a laptop on one of their entirely owned factories where they manufacture and store every single component that goes into it? And, if you call them now they even give you a $200 discount because wouldn't you know it they just happened to have a "promotion" just for you?
There is no such thing as a free anything, yet when Apple offers FREE BEATS WITH EVERY MAC PURCHASE no magazine would dare to call them out on the obvious fact that both of these items are so "overpriced" that they can even afford to give one away "for free" and still come out ahead. They instead run "articles" praising what a great value the offer is and also you should act now before the sale is over.
This "article" could be written about any company, literally any company.
Spivak|7 years ago
frogpelt|7 years ago
If a local taco joint advertises 5 cent tacos for a promotion and they give you a moldy peanut butter sandwich, you would probably be really annoyed.
hn_throwaway_99|7 years ago
> Maybe this explains what’s so galling to people about the Folsom & Co. not-really-scam: It simply lays bare the categorical deception at the heart of all branding and retail. The different watch values are, in the strictest sense, speech acts: the watch is $29.99 because someone said it’s $29.99. It’s $29.99 because a certain person is wearing it on Instagram; it’s $29.99 because it’s photographed next to flannel and a Chemex. While “Bradley” of “Bradley’s men’s shop” may not be the most fleshed-out character, he – and the entire existence of Folsom & Co., Soficoastal, etc. – are examples of the now-household term, “brand storytelling.” And the internet makes it possible for anyone to tell any story, about anything, from anywhere.
It makes you realize that there really are tons of huge cases of products whose value is solely a result of marketing. My favorite current example is how YouTube influencers have completely upended the makeup industry, with each brand trying to convince you that this pallette of brown and red eyeshadow is imminently Superior to some other brown and red eyeshadow, when the input costs of all of them is literally under $1.
smiley325|7 years ago
teachrdan|7 years ago
LargeWu|7 years ago
benj111|7 years ago
Customer> I can buy this watch for $2 elsewhere.
Retailer> Then why are you here?
On some level, yes they're selling overpriced rubbish, but then everyone else is, especially in fashion. Their sin seems to be making it explicit.
How long before people are buying these watches to make post modern 'statements'?
sneakernets|7 years ago
I'm sure that's already a thing, sadly.
chaostheory|7 years ago
This is a really old strategy for getting credibility. Some scholars believe that Sun Tzu's Art of War is really much younger than what is claimed in the book. They believe that Sun Tzu focused on the book's supposed age and history, in order to give it more credibility.
rmason|7 years ago
In my grandfathers day it was a free lunch. Today a free watch and tomorrow a free light saber perhaps?
avip|7 years ago
halbritt|7 years ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There_ain%27t_no_such_thing_as...
hn_throwaway_99|7 years ago
1zee|7 years ago
CharlesW|7 years ago
taude|7 years ago
owenversteeg|7 years ago
[original w/comments: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15158422]
-----
So a few years back I started a watch company in a similar way.
I think I was actually one of the first to do it, since when I started I couldn't find many competitors. I tried a million kinds of promotions, from "free, you just pay for shipping" to offering people discounts and referral codes.
I actually created my own watch designs (well, modifications of the face, case, and strap with the same Chinese movement.) Some of my improvements started to be used by the manufacturers.
I'm not at all invested in it anymore: I left the business after selling a substantial, but not massive number of watches and finding that it wasn't terribly profitable if you included the cost of advertising, shipping, and (most importantly) my own time.
My own "watch company" was more real in a few ways: watches that I did in fact design myself, shipped from my address in the US, and the quality of the watches was actually quite good. To this day I wear a watch from my company and it has held up to an incredible amount of abuse. I say this as someone who (used to) collect watches. I also was upfront about the cost of shipping and the watch itself - I might have, for example, a banner that says "Free 3-Day US Shipping" and then the price of the watch would be clearly labeled as $20, so people would know that they would only be paying a total of $20 for the watch. The prices varied a lot over time, from $10 to $40 per watch, but surprisingly my profit was never huge even though I only spent about $3 on the watch itself and $7 on shipping.
If anyone's curious about the whole thing (and lives in the Netherlands) I still have hundreds of these watches and I'd be happy to sit down over a coffee, tell my stories from the business and show the watches. (My email's in my profile.)
----
A few comments I'd like to add now, in 2018:
1) the watches (mine & that of other "companies") are of a surprisingly high quality in many cases. Not always, but often. For example, my watch has survived everything from bilge fluids to boiling water and it's the same cheap one I sold. Definitely far more durable than a comparable mechanical watch. I can see myself still using this thing 10+ years down the line. Furthermore, it actually does look classy and I get compliments on it. Most of the time, if you buy a cheap $3 Chinese alternative to something that's normally 10-1000x the price, it is neither beautiful nor durable.
2) The unexpectedly high quality of the watches is what fueled the explosion of sites IMO. You don't see "free earbuds", "free clock", or "free keyboard" sites, despite the fact that all 3 of these things are available for under $5 shipped from China. What I think happened is that people bought a watch on a whim, then it arrived and they realized "wow, this feels like a premium product!" Which it did! I was blown away when I first saw the quality level and instantly thought I should start a business. I suspect hundreds of other people had this same "eureka!" moment. When you get a $5 Aliexpress keyboard, it feels and looks like it cost $5 to make, and it excites nobody. Furthermore, Amazon makes a $13 keyboard with great reviews, and being Amazon it ships with Prime instead of "30-to-infinity day slow-boat-from-China shipping." Meanwhile, these watches felt like they cost at least $20 to make, and the only competitors for classy analog watches would be $50-100 or so, but they cost $3 (drop)shipped!
3) I highly doubt anyone made much money. When I started, dropshipping was not a thing the manufacturers offered (probably the reason why I was one of the first.) When manufacturers started offering dropshipping, these "businesses" exploded because you could suddenly run them entirely behind a laptop. The problem, of course, was that the number of such "companies" exploded, all competing for the same customers, Facebook ads, Google results, "underground marketing" spots, etc etc. That led to people getting a bit suspicious. If you saw one ad for a cool watch, maybe you were interested, but if you saw 20 in a week, all suspiciously similar, you'd think something's up.
boldslogan|7 years ago
mti27|7 years ago
I bought a "Tagheuer" watch on the streets of NYC for five dollars. At a glance, it looked OK but by the end of a day's wear it had completely self destructed.
kwhitefoot|7 years ago
Don't know it it is true but the movement inside claims to be Swiss.
rezmason|7 years ago
http://freegoldwatch.com/newhome/home.html
https://www.google.com/maps/@37.7680459,-122.4526923,2a,75y,...
jboles|7 years ago
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_van_speaker_scam
unknown|7 years ago
[deleted]
neogodless|7 years ago
Previous discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15154934
pvarangot|7 years ago
Not defending what this fake stuff brands are doing, and they not only exist for watches but also for jewelry, leather bracelets, etc, etc... but just saying it's also comparable to what cheap shopping mall brands sometimes do with accessories and watches but adding renting and expensive place in the middle and marking up everything way more.
JetSpiegel|7 years ago
"Ethical dropshipping" is the new baroque simplicity.
nithi2023|7 years ago
tomatotomato37|7 years ago
bartread|7 years ago
dang|7 years ago
csours|7 years ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There_ain%27t_no_such_thing_as...
Also, people will pay more for a good story.
---
> "25. Maybe this explains what’s so galling to people about the Folsom & Co. not-really-scam: It simply lays bare the categorical deception at the heart of all branding and retail. The different watch values are, in the strictest sense, speech acts: the watch is $29.99 because someone said it’s $29.99. It’s $29.99 because a certain person is wearing it on Instagram; it’s $29.99 because it’s photographed next to flannel and a Chemex. While “Bradley” of “Bradley’s men’s shop” may not be the most fleshed-out character, he – and the entire existence of Folsom & Co., Soficoastal, etc. – are examples of the now-household term, “brand storytelling.” And the internet makes it possible for anyone to tell any story, about anything, from anywhere."
---
> " thateffingasian: Capitalism is making your own product and selling it. Capitalism isn't buying a piece of shit and telling people they're worth 25x the price, and lying to them about the actual value of the product. Your idea of capitalism is fucked up @soficoastal. Then the idiots blocked me, LOL. "
If Capitalism isn't buying shit and lying about it to sell it for higher, I don't know what Capitalism is. This is only a difference in degree, not kind.
dang|7 years ago
timr|7 years ago
I'm neutral on the question in this case, but really, any discussion of "capitalism" that goes beyond chapter one, page one of an undegrad economics textbook covers the point that efficient markets are not deceptive markets. Participants are assumed to share equal information. HN's understanding of capitalist theory seems to begin and end at the phrase, "supply and demand", and everything that has a two-sided market is otherwise A-OK.
In this particular case, consumers are sort-of informed, but it's also a lot harder to be informed than it used to be. I'm someone who tries to find high-quality items, and even I screw up on a regular basis. I wouldn't fall for this one, though.
TomMckenny|7 years ago
Capitalism is where the gatekeepers on what can be produced and by whom, control through (typically hereditary) wealth and then use that position to capture the majority of and wealth produced (or wealth harvested in the case of unproductive business such as rent seeking). Dishonesty is not a necessary part but certainly occurs in any market where it is favored.
Incidentally, notions of supply and demand are part of a free market which does not necessarily have to be run by capital.
CapacitorSet|7 years ago
Empact|7 years ago
These scams are as old as commerce. Just more easily propagated using modern tools. They’re the reason Consumer Reports and reveiw publications exist. Caveat emptor.