I have delivered thousands of packages through the Amazon Flex program; I am quite well-versed in their policies. There is no such incentive policy to return undeliverable packages as he claims. If you are out making deliveries, and you can’t deliver a package for whatever reason, you mark it as undeliverable in the app and return it to the station after your route is complete. That’s just part of the gig. It sucks because you might have to go out of your way to bring back the packages to the station (using your own gas and time), so the real incentive is to deliver the package, even if it’s risky.
This guy is just a lying thief. There is no such program.
Edit: I should add that Amazon keeps track of your delivery metrics, including the percent that are undelivered/late/reported missing (DNR, did not receive)/etc. If you drop below some threshold you get kicked off the app. You get a weekly email with a summary of your stats. I think I had a couple DNRs out of the thousands of things I delivered, and was paranoid they were going to kick me off for them.
It seems like HNers are quite willing to believe that Amazon factually has the "We'll pay a non-employee contractor a bonus to move without authorization onto private property to take a package they don't have any documentation for and reintroduce it into our logistics system at some arbitrary point in the future" policy.
It may be indeed, but the article gives no indication that this isn't a policy Amazon has after giving a vague indication that it might be.
HNers are reading a news story as clearly as it was written.
(to contrast, the other option is that HNers would make logical assumptions and making logical assumptions is quite illogical when it comes to how large corporations interact with sub-contractors)
A telling contrast with the Mark Rober video and comments. Citizen has video evidence of package being stolen ? Or in the case of the comments GPS of offenders? Police dont give a fuck. Trillion dolllar company? Yes sir Mr Bezos, and we’ll deliver those extra packages for you on our time as well!
I'm impressed they didn't disappear into the void of, "maybe this needs to be kept as evidence. I dunno... Maybe ... Easier to just assume so than risk getting a slap on the wrist"
To avoid people thinking "meh, they aren't answering, I'm just gonna toss it in the garbage". Since these are contractors driving their own cars, they don't "return to Amazon" at the end of the day. So, basically, Amazon is just compensating people for the drive back to the warehouse that they only have to do if they have packages leftover.
(Remember that this article is quoting an arrested man; I think there's a good chance what he's saying is a lie. He's probably just stealing packages.)
One could argue that returning a package to Amazon that had not been picked up would allow Amazon to avoid losses. But the dark pattern, of offering delivery personnel to return to "you" undelivered packages for a $5 bounty would be one way of using the delivery driver as a cutout.
So like you, I'm really curious about this alleged Amazon program.
No prior records. ... This sucks. His ability to get work will be greatly diminished because he thought he could game some poorly structured Amazon system.
I mean, I know it's still his fault. Still, I wish people would take time to think about these kinds of decisions though.
> This sucks. His ability to get work will be greatly diminished because he thought he could game some poorly structured Amazon system.
Poor him. All he did was abuse the trust that was placed in him by his employer. And now it will be harder for him to get a new employer to place trust in him. How unfair.
I hope railroading this guy assures that none of my amazon packages are ever stolen in this kind of scheme again. I don't feel bad for him whatsoever. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
You know, it’s tough. We don’t know this guy’s backstory, but we do live in a society where there are rules. His decision will have personal repercussions. Unfortunately that’s the way things are. And yes, other people steal too but never so much see a fine or jail time, but that’s the way the world works.
Give me a break He's a thief who tried to rip off his employer. You know which sort of behavior will stop future employers from trusting you? One guess.
I've started having Amazon packages delivered to Amazon's package lockers. For example, at 7-eleven stores and Safeway stores. I've also had Newegg packages delivered to Walgreen stores. Bit of a hassle to go there for pickup, but better than having expensive things stolen.
> Johnson admitted to taking bait package, claiming he did it because Amazon has an incentive program that pays drivers $5 for each undelivered package they return.
I used to drive for an Amazon contractor earlier this year and I can tell you from experience that most package theft isn't coming from situations like this, but instead packages that are actually a part of a driver's route
Usually each delivery contractor has a set delivery area because of this it's extremely obvious when you're given a bait package because it's usually got an address that's very much out of your way. Or the package will look really beat up. Most of the time it's the former in these cases. Where I saw the most theft happen was packages that had an address that couldn't be found, clearly marked items (ex. toilet paper in a branded box), or a driver genuinely misplaces a package inside the van so they mark it missing only to find it later in the day. Now you might ask: why not just bring a package back if there's a legitimate issue with it's delivery? You'll be marked down. So it's easier in many cases to simply rip off the label and abandon it or take it for yourself and hope you've been given something valuable.
Most of these guys are in rough situations, are under extreme pressure to perform (200 + deliveries in a day), and often aren't given benefts or a stable schedule. Turnover is extremely high, employee theft is absolutely rampant, and frankly it seems like Amazon never cared so long as there was a certain threshold of delivered packages for the day.
Sure when you are claiming multiple packages per week are on your manifest but not present in your van things get suspicious, but of course all they do is send you an extremely obvious bait package that you'll end up returning unless you're just stupid. Many of these drivers aren't lasting more than a year and almost all of them are gaming the system through the method I listed above so there's no reprecussion for doing the wrong thing and in most cases doing the right thing gets you a thank you coupled with a black mark on your record. I've seen easily over 10k worth of theft in my first few months I really do wonder how Amazon manages to stay in business.
so you build a delivery system with incentives to not deliver packages, then fire those with the temerity to game the system.
I think the incentive is to keep drivers from tossing undeliverable packages into the trash or just dumping them on the ground where the address should be even if it's a vacant lot.
Only a thief would treat it as an incentive to not deliver packages.
Lots of businesses make it easy for dishonest employees to steal from them, but it's still the employee's fault when he takes advantage of the system. When I was in college, bartenders were notorious for pouring double drinks for their friends (or pouring a drink and pocketing the money, etc)... and some bar owners tried to put expensive pour metering systems in place to combat it, but the ones I'm aware of were eventually disbanded because the system made making drinks more labor intensive, and labor was more expensive than some free booze. So even if bartenders can skim money, that doesn't mean they should or that it's the employer's fault for not doing more to stop it.
We expect people to follow the law even when breaking it would profit them. Do we criticize stores for building a business with incentives for taking stuff without paying, then prosecuting people who take advantage of that?
I'm not even clear what the first line is saying. Packages undelivered by.. them? other drivers? How? If it's by another driver, how do they get it, and how do they know it's not delivered? If it's their own package, wait, they're literally paying drivers not to deliver my packages? What in the actual hell.
I think some explanation is missing here. Why would Amazon pay its drivers to pick up other packages and return them to Amazon? Surely the Amazon incentive program would only apply to packages which that driver picked up at the beginning of their route but was unable to deliver.
It doesn't seem necessary to have a program like he's claiming - it's easy to see who's not delivering packages and not returning them, and it's easy to then never work with that person again. So I doubt his claim is true.
As long as the incentive to actually deliver them is higher, it seems sensible enough to me. It's the loophole that allows him to return things that weren't his to return, that sounds like it may be more problematic than intended.
The driver had the "temerity" to remove a delivered package from someone's porch for $5 of personal profit at the cost of the shipper's and receiver's time and/or money.
"Gaming" systems in reality can result in draconian, irreversible punishments. That _some_ systems are more permissive and allow people to exploit them once, twice, or more times before exercising punishments is no guarantee that _all_ systems will.
There is fault to be found with Amazon for designing a bad system. There is fault to be found with the driver for "gaming" a bad system. One does not excuse the other. Participants in a badly-designed system are not automatically empowered to disregard the rules and "game" that system.
TLDR: "An eye for an eye" may be an appealing strategy, but it is not universally accepted as valid.
If he is guilty of theft then Amazon was accepting fenced goods.
I don't see what is controversial about these definitions. If peons are going to be charged with serious crimes over dark patterns used for free advertising that eat up civic resources then follow through on the rest of the law..
He is guilty of violating ToS or fraud, (to whatever extent Amazon could believe he (regularly?) found 18 undelivered packages!?) but if this is theft then Amazon was encouraging and abetting theft.
The DA should really start the process of investigating this Amazon program to see if Amazon is benefiting materialy from returned packages not being claimed, etc, etc.
What would happen if I noticed a package not addressed to me on my porch, and I:
1) Took it inside?
2) Took it inside and called USPS/FedEx/UPS depending on the shipping label?
3) Took it into my car, and drove to a USPS/FedEx/UPS office depending on the label?
To add, I appreciate that there are efforts behind solving this problem. I'm living in an apartment, and I've had to deal with missing packages as well. I'd personally rather have legitimate packages have trackers, and then return or drop-off the tracker once I receive the package successfully. I understand the price would be high given the scale of my ask.
You live there. You're allowed to remove items from your own porch. I think the scenarios would be:
1) Cops show up and and say, "Hey, that was a bait package. Can we get it back?"
2) Same as 1), plus USPS/FedEx/UPS would be unable to locate the tracking number.
3) Cops pull you over, thinking you're a porch pirate. You tell them where you live, and they regret the error, and ask for their bait package back.
(But these scenarios probably wouldn't happen in the first place. I assume that the chosen bait locations were done with the knowledge of the residents.)
Not sure what you're getting at. Are you suggesting that the police would leave bait packages at random houses without the informed consent of the occupants? And then arrest them if they picked them up? That would be nuts, but there's no suggestion of anything like that in the article.
This happened a couple blocks from me. There's been a ton of packages going missing around here. Luckily I live on a small off street that doesn't really attract criminals.
Also should add, I've had pretty bad luck with amazons hired drivers actually delivering packages on time or at all. When I lived in the city they'd often call me up asking me to meet them down on the street since they couldn't figure out how an apartment building worked.
I'm off Millikan and Amazons direct couriers have been an order of magnitude more reliable than my UPS driver (who doesn't follow my delivery preferences and takes my stuff to random UPS stores that I have to pick it up from).
My own experience with AMZL (Amazon Logistics) was so bad that I got Amazon to add a delivery preference to my account so they don't use AMZL unless it's the only option
Why is it standard practice in the US to leave undelivered packages on the porch of people's homes? With the reports of stolen packages and Amazon having to put dummy packages to catch thieves, as a non-American I'm struggling to understand why they don't just put them back in the truck and let you arrange a later delivery or pick-up at the closest parcel centre.
This happened to my friend last year, her security camera captured the whole thing: driver dropped off the package, took a picture as proof of delivery, then picked up the package. She didn't report to the police in fear of retaliation.
What does Amazon do with packages returned like this one was about to be? Presumably delivery is re-tried or the user refunded... in which case stopping this behaviour isn't actually preventing any thefts, just adding delays.
So we have some Amazon drivers stealing Amazon packages now? Seems like in 5 years this won't be an issue anymore, not sure how yet, but seems like it will be solved.
The law, in its infinite magnanimity, forbids the rich and poor alike from stealing bread, sleeping under bridges, and loitering.
Considering the demographic of the people who read Hacker News I would be willing to bet that most of you have never seriously considered having to steal to get by.
[+] [-] flexer2|7 years ago|reply
This guy is just a lying thief. There is no such program.
Edit: I should add that Amazon keeps track of your delivery metrics, including the percent that are undelivered/late/reported missing (DNR, did not receive)/etc. If you drop below some threshold you get kicked off the app. You get a weekly email with a summary of your stats. I think I had a couple DNRs out of the thousands of things I delivered, and was paranoid they were going to kick me off for them.
[+] [-] patio11|7 years ago|reply
This... is an unlikely policy for Amazon to have.
[+] [-] munk-a|7 years ago|reply
HNers are reading a news story as clearly as it was written.
(to contrast, the other option is that HNers would make logical assumptions and making logical assumptions is quite illogical when it comes to how large corporations interact with sub-contractors)
[+] [-] gkoberger|7 years ago|reply
That was really awesome of them to do, especially around Christmas!
[+] [-] Steko|7 years ago|reply
YPDMV
[+] [-] Waterluvian|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sparkie|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] heyjudy|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] univerio|7 years ago|reply
Not sure I understand the program and how it benefits Amazon in any way.
[+] [-] gkoberger|7 years ago|reply
(Remember that this article is quoting an arrested man; I think there's a good chance what he's saying is a lie. He's probably just stealing packages.)
[+] [-] williamscales|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] skeoh|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ChuckMcM|7 years ago|reply
So like you, I'm really curious about this alleged Amazon program.
[+] [-] djsumdog|7 years ago|reply
I mean, I know it's still his fault. Still, I wish people would take time to think about these kinds of decisions though.
[+] [-] dunpeal|7 years ago|reply
Poor him. All he did was abuse the trust that was placed in him by his employer. And now it will be harder for him to get a new employer to place trust in him. How unfair.
[+] [-] wowzap|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] geetfun|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] EpicEng|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] williamscales|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] hnauz|7 years ago|reply
His ability to get work will be greatly diminished because he is a thief.
[+] [-] chihuahua|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gruez|7 years ago|reply
afaik you're not liable if that happens (Amazon will send another for free), so why should you care?
[+] [-] ahakki|7 years ago|reply
Like paying for rat tails.
[+] [-] drivertoss|7 years ago|reply
Usually each delivery contractor has a set delivery area because of this it's extremely obvious when you're given a bait package because it's usually got an address that's very much out of your way. Or the package will look really beat up. Most of the time it's the former in these cases. Where I saw the most theft happen was packages that had an address that couldn't be found, clearly marked items (ex. toilet paper in a branded box), or a driver genuinely misplaces a package inside the van so they mark it missing only to find it later in the day. Now you might ask: why not just bring a package back if there's a legitimate issue with it's delivery? You'll be marked down. So it's easier in many cases to simply rip off the label and abandon it or take it for yourself and hope you've been given something valuable.
Most of these guys are in rough situations, are under extreme pressure to perform (200 + deliveries in a day), and often aren't given benefts or a stable schedule. Turnover is extremely high, employee theft is absolutely rampant, and frankly it seems like Amazon never cared so long as there was a certain threshold of delivered packages for the day.
Sure when you are claiming multiple packages per week are on your manifest but not present in your van things get suspicious, but of course all they do is send you an extremely obvious bait package that you'll end up returning unless you're just stupid. Many of these drivers aren't lasting more than a year and almost all of them are gaming the system through the method I listed above so there's no reprecussion for doing the wrong thing and in most cases doing the right thing gets you a thank you coupled with a black mark on your record. I've seen easily over 10k worth of theft in my first few months I really do wonder how Amazon manages to stay in business.
[+] [-] lsh|7 years ago|reply
and then
> "This behavior is unacceptable and does not reflect the high standards we have for delivery partners," Amazon
so you build a delivery system with incentives to not deliver packages, then fire those with the temerity to game the system.
[+] [-] Johnny555|7 years ago|reply
I think the incentive is to keep drivers from tossing undeliverable packages into the trash or just dumping them on the ground where the address should be even if it's a vacant lot.
Only a thief would treat it as an incentive to not deliver packages.
Lots of businesses make it easy for dishonest employees to steal from them, but it's still the employee's fault when he takes advantage of the system. When I was in college, bartenders were notorious for pouring double drinks for their friends (or pouring a drink and pocketing the money, etc)... and some bar owners tried to put expensive pour metering systems in place to combat it, but the ones I'm aware of were eventually disbanded because the system made making drinks more labor intensive, and labor was more expensive than some free booze. So even if bartenders can skim money, that doesn't mean they should or that it's the employer's fault for not doing more to stop it.
[+] [-] mikeash|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rconti|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] baddox|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ericd|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] soneil|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] floatingatoll|7 years ago|reply
"Gaming" systems in reality can result in draconian, irreversible punishments. That _some_ systems are more permissive and allow people to exploit them once, twice, or more times before exercising punishments is no guarantee that _all_ systems will.
There is fault to be found with Amazon for designing a bad system. There is fault to be found with the driver for "gaming" a bad system. One does not excuse the other. Participants in a badly-designed system are not automatically empowered to disregard the rules and "game" that system.
TLDR: "An eye for an eye" may be an appealing strategy, but it is not universally accepted as valid.
[+] [-] yayana|7 years ago|reply
I don't see what is controversial about these definitions. If peons are going to be charged with serious crimes over dark patterns used for free advertising that eat up civic resources then follow through on the rest of the law..
He is guilty of violating ToS or fraud, (to whatever extent Amazon could believe he (regularly?) found 18 undelivered packages!?) but if this is theft then Amazon was encouraging and abetting theft.
The DA should really start the process of investigating this Amazon program to see if Amazon is benefiting materialy from returned packages not being claimed, etc, etc.
[+] [-] tareqak|7 years ago|reply
1) Took it inside?
2) Took it inside and called USPS/FedEx/UPS depending on the shipping label?
3) Took it into my car, and drove to a USPS/FedEx/UPS office depending on the label?
To add, I appreciate that there are efforts behind solving this problem. I'm living in an apartment, and I've had to deal with missing packages as well. I'd personally rather have legitimate packages have trackers, and then return or drop-off the tracker once I receive the package successfully. I understand the price would be high given the scale of my ask.
[+] [-] function_seven|7 years ago|reply
1) Cops show up and and say, "Hey, that was a bait package. Can we get it back?"
2) Same as 1), plus USPS/FedEx/UPS would be unable to locate the tracking number.
3) Cops pull you over, thinking you're a porch pirate. You tell them where you live, and they regret the error, and ask for their bait package back.
(But these scenarios probably wouldn't happen in the first place. I assume that the chosen bait locations were done with the knowledge of the residents.)
[+] [-] sparky_z|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dawnerd|7 years ago|reply
Also should add, I've had pretty bad luck with amazons hired drivers actually delivering packages on time or at all. When I lived in the city they'd often call me up asking me to meet them down on the street since they couldn't figure out how an apartment building worked.
[+] [-] nightfly|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] chihuahua|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] joefourier|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] baoha|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] __david__|7 years ago|reply
I mean, if it's a driver I'd report it right to Amazon. They'd probably care more than the police.
[+] [-] advisedwang|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ElijahLynn|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|7 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] InGodsName|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] heyjudy|7 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] gesman|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] patientplatypus|7 years ago|reply
Considering the demographic of the people who read Hacker News I would be willing to bet that most of you have never seriously considered having to steal to get by.
[+] [-] donatj|7 years ago|reply