They also require that the strength bars display the highest reception of any type of service it can receive, regardless if that is what it is using right now.
So it may display 4 bars and LTE but it's really 4 bars for GSM service, despite using LTE atm.
They do this because it works when it comes to reviews and perception.
There was a phone that people complained about reception on that was displaying the current service signal strength using a realistic algorithm.
Review sites, etc, complained about it compared to other phones despite it being better in actuality.
A "fix" was issued. That fix was to use the same signal bar algorithm as everyone else. The same review sites/etc were awash with how much better everyone's reception was and gladness the bug had been fixed.
Seeing a lot of comments here that are along the lines of, "this is typical marketing aka lying." Just wanted to say (as a marketing major and former marketing guy) these are most assuredly not the same thing, and I think we make a grave error by normalizing the idea that lying == marketing. Lying is not ok. Marketing is perfectly ok. Let's be careful lest we make excuses like, "Oh they're just marketing"
Marketing is not perfectly ok, at best it alerts us to things we weren't going to buy because we didn't know about them. But most of the time it either 1) encourages us to buy things we weren't already going to buy (like the $20 shit they sell on tv) or 2) attempts to win mindshare/sales over some other competing brand, which is also wasteful because it's ultimately just a product trying to carve itself a larger piece of a relatively fixed-size pie. Or it does some other nefarious stuff like trying to boost PR of some business or sway our political opinion. And many of the methods that marketing uses to accomplish these goals leverage negative human psychology like making us feel ugly/fat/poor/stupid if we don't make that purchase we weren't going to make originally.
Open a magazine/watch tv/disable adblock/look at roadside ads and you'll see that very rarely are ads actually making the world a better place.
When people say marketing is lying, it’s really shorthand for “marketing has a strong incentive to lie, and very little to stop them. Many times the only thing stopping them are the morals of the company (lol) or very rarely applied laws against false advertising”. So you can see that the reputation is there because the incentives and market forces pretty much force marketing in that direction.
It would seem the line between marketing and lying is completely arbitrary and essentially means nothing. Take a look at any fast food commercial for an easy example.
I think the perception is that 90% of marketing is straight up propaganda (which includes lying, obviously). And I think this perception is correct. If there is a difference between marketing and lying, it sure is difficult for the average user to distinguish, hence the perception.
"The Power of Home Depot" - The POWER? Really? Its also the most expensive even though they always claim to have the best deals.
"JD Power best in class" - even though the company paid JD power for the "award"
Fast food commercials - never mind how the photographs are essentially straight up propaganda, "I'm Lovin' It!"
There are so many examples of this I couldn't list them all if I even tried to.
> normalizing the idea that lying == marketing
I hate to tell you this, but its already been normalized because for the most part that is the truth!
You fail to make a coherent point, because you try to differentiate a set (in)permissible actions only by assigning them different names (lying vs. marketing) without defining them or relating them to examples (of others). As you clearly don't agree with the definitions of other commenters, please construct that system of knowledge yourself, so others can even meaningfully reply.
Hey HN slow down let me chime in here, i used to work in the lying profession and i just need you to know that lying is not ok, and that lying is not the same thing as lying
Oh, come on. Typical engineering centric view of the world. People don't care or understand that HSPA was just a protocol extension to 3G and therefore didn't deserve to be called 4G. I don't even really care.
Marketing is just marketing. It's the company communicating with customers about their products and services and how they're running their business. If calling these technology improvements 5G helps AT&T invest more in their network, I'm all for that.
I get 200 mbps download speeds on my iPhone in San Francisco, near Fisherman's Wharf (insanely crowded tourist area). I don't know what the technology they're using to get it to work, but if they want to call it 6G or 7G I don't really care, as long as they continue to invest in it and improve it.
For those curious, on the marketing page for their 5G plan, AT&T says these changes to the LTE network are being calling "5Ge":
"How are we doing it? With enhancements like carrier aggregation to add more “lanes” to the highway that data travels on. 4x4 MIMO to double the number of antennas that can send data back and forth. And 256 QAM to make data transmission more efficient. All this adds up to faster speeds for you."
https://www.att.com/5g/consumer
I like that every single brand of toilet paper now boasts "8=16" or "12=32" etc.
It's a strange comfortable flexibility we have developed around truth.
It's almost as if "freedom of speech" means you can massage the truth if it increase sales but god forbid you make a drawing of 90 year old cartoon mouse.
Nothing new there - even in our industry, specifically computer data storage.
It's been forever since backup tape manufacturers started describing their tape capacity assuming constant 2:1 compression ratios - even though that's a bad assumption to make as compression ratios wary wildly based on the original data. I think this started happening in the mid-1990s when tape drives had built-in hardware compression to save the host CPU from doing it in software?
And of course, the canonical example of HDD vendors using "megabyte == 1000 kilobytes".
Of course this results in a Nash equilibrium because vendors can't risk being honest if everyone else is dishonest/misleading because there's simply too many ignorant purchasers in the market - which is the exact same problem JC Penny had.
At least AT&T is using "5Ge" instead of "5G" unlike they did with HSPA+ and "4G", and I'm okay with that, provided consumers won't think that "5Ge" stands for "Enhanced" instead of "Ersatz".
> I like that every single brand of toilet paper now boasts "8=16" or "12=32" etc.
The left is number of rolls in the package, the right is the number of the same brand “standard” rolls it is equivalent to by length (there is accommodating text which makes this explicit); this facilitates price comparisons among packages with different roll sizes.
As someone not from the US, I just had a quick look on Google images. Such a bizarre concept, kinda amazing how different cultures can end up with such ridiculousness.
Reminds me of a Subaru Forester I owned. It had a badge 'pzev' which apparently meant 'partial zero-emissions vehicle'. Which meant what? not zero emissions certainly. It was a regular gas car.
> Now, imagine your TV was advertised as 4Ke when it was actually 1080p.
This happens with projectors. Many projectors are advertised as "4K" when in fact they only accept a 4K signal, but still project a 1080p picture.
Some of them have a kind of hacky trick which involves vibrating the image chip, so that it can project a second set of pixels offset from the first by half a pixel, which gets you a ~2K picture - kinda sorta.
AT&T also did that with the 4G rollout – my iPhone 4S, which lacked 4G hardware, would display 4G in the status bar, which was especially cruel since they had a huge capacity problem and the average speeds were in the double-digit Kbps range.
Carriers are uncomfortable about publishing the actual throughput and latency characteristics of their Internet access but are perfectly happy to slap a new "g" on their boxes for marketing purposes.
Tangential: I find networking (both wifi and cellular) to be one of the most problematic parts in a smartphone. These are quite literally the things that make a smartphone. This may be OS and device specific, but with AOSP on a pixel, these are my common issues: 1) Frequent wifi disconnects 2) Phone shows connected to both wifi and cellular but internet doesn't work 3) Cellular data is supposed to be always on but doesn't work as intended 4) Wifi-Calling drops call if wifi disconnects (which is probably a combination of 1 and 3). 4) Phone prefers shitty wifi (for eg. while driving by near an AP) over cellular. Does everyone have some variation of these problems ? Have iphones solved these for good ?
I worked for a telco who advertised their service as "3G" because theoretically, under ideal conditions, it could hit a speed that was somehow close to what we all think of as "3G".
Marketing felt perfectly fine about it, even though it was a blatant lie. They ignored Engineering. I think it's just how the world is now.
AT&T did the same with HSPA+ (calling it 4G). Just so they could be one of the first to have 4G out the door. At least from a lying, ahem, marketing perspective.
I don't understand how these companies can get away with so much. I had to find a plan a month ago, and none of these companies display their prices on their websites. They force you to go to a shop, where people don't want to show you the prices and the different plans either. You're met with aggressive sales people and you end up paying for something that you have no idea if it's fair or not.
> I really don't think the first amendment should apply to speech that deceives consumers.
FTFY. It's not about corporations being evil, per se. Free speech should not be a defense against false advertising, any more than it's a defense against shouting fire in a movie theatre or threatening bodily harm.
Does a technical definition of 5G even exist? Going from 3 to 4G was mostly about the transition from CDMA to ODFMA with other perks tacked on. This is why even though the marketing department at AT&T called HSPA+ "4G" the engineers knew it really wasn't.
What is the equivalent step change for 5G that is as significant as OFDMA, or is 5G is purely a collection of incremental improvements?
I remember something similar happening back in the days with totally unrelated tech:
- MP3: Can play audio. Marketing and tech play nice together.
- MP4: Can play video. Marketing and tech play nice together
- MP5: Wait what? Marketing needs "next" iterarion, it doesn't make any sense. It's just MP4 with some random silly feature (depending on the company).
I'm not sure why I'm struggling to find an answer to this question, but does anyone know if the plan for 5G is to have cell phones transmitting at 28 and 39 GHz with the new sample rates? Or are mm wave freqs primarily for infrastructure? I'd love to read about mm transceivers on UE's if anyone has any information about it.
I wish we could show real bandwidth, latency and drop rate instead. Even better, have industry agree on minimum values for one bar to four bars of connectivity. And gradually upgrade these requirements over time.
All these names just confuse consumers and distract from solving the actual problems. The radio technology stack is mostly an implementation detail.
Or "3.5G", but Android without any vendor crap (i.e. LineageOS or any other AOSP based build) doesn't use the "G" above 3G: "H", "H+", "LTE" and "LTE+"
[+] [-] DannyBee|7 years ago|reply
They also require that the strength bars display the highest reception of any type of service it can receive, regardless if that is what it is using right now.
So it may display 4 bars and LTE but it's really 4 bars for GSM service, despite using LTE atm.
They do this because it works when it comes to reviews and perception.
There was a phone that people complained about reception on that was displaying the current service signal strength using a realistic algorithm.
Review sites, etc, complained about it compared to other phones despite it being better in actuality.
A "fix" was issued. That fix was to use the same signal bar algorithm as everyone else. The same review sites/etc were awash with how much better everyone's reception was and gladness the bug had been fixed.
[+] [-] freedomben|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] opportune|7 years ago|reply
Open a magazine/watch tv/disable adblock/look at roadside ads and you'll see that very rarely are ads actually making the world a better place.
[+] [-] orev|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] russdpale|7 years ago|reply
I think the perception is that 90% of marketing is straight up propaganda (which includes lying, obviously). And I think this perception is correct. If there is a difference between marketing and lying, it sure is difficult for the average user to distinguish, hence the perception.
"The Power of Home Depot" - The POWER? Really? Its also the most expensive even though they always claim to have the best deals. "JD Power best in class" - even though the company paid JD power for the "award" Fast food commercials - never mind how the photographs are essentially straight up propaganda, "I'm Lovin' It!"
There are so many examples of this I couldn't list them all if I even tried to.
> normalizing the idea that lying == marketing
I hate to tell you this, but its already been normalized because for the most part that is the truth!
[+] [-] Confiks|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gammateam|7 years ago|reply
https://www.law.ua.edu/pubs/lrarticles/Volume%2065/Issue%204...
[+] [-] snackbugs|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] metaphor|7 years ago|reply
[1] https://press.princeton.edu/titles/7929.html
[+] [-] ColanR|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] topmonk|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|7 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] monochromatic|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] omarforgotpwd|7 years ago|reply
Marketing is just marketing. It's the company communicating with customers about their products and services and how they're running their business. If calling these technology improvements 5G helps AT&T invest more in their network, I'm all for that.
I get 200 mbps download speeds on my iPhone in San Francisco, near Fisherman's Wharf (insanely crowded tourist area). I don't know what the technology they're using to get it to work, but if they want to call it 6G or 7G I don't really care, as long as they continue to invest in it and improve it.
For those curious, on the marketing page for their 5G plan, AT&T says these changes to the LTE network are being calling "5Ge":
"How are we doing it? With enhancements like carrier aggregation to add more “lanes” to the highway that data travels on. 4x4 MIMO to double the number of antennas that can send data back and forth. And 256 QAM to make data transmission more efficient. All this adds up to faster speeds for you." https://www.att.com/5g/consumer
[+] [-] TomMckenny|7 years ago|reply
It's a strange comfortable flexibility we have developed around truth.
It's almost as if "freedom of speech" means you can massage the truth if it increase sales but god forbid you make a drawing of 90 year old cartoon mouse.
[+] [-] DaiPlusPlus|7 years ago|reply
It's been forever since backup tape manufacturers started describing their tape capacity assuming constant 2:1 compression ratios - even though that's a bad assumption to make as compression ratios wary wildly based on the original data. I think this started happening in the mid-1990s when tape drives had built-in hardware compression to save the host CPU from doing it in software?
And of course, the canonical example of HDD vendors using "megabyte == 1000 kilobytes".
Of course this results in a Nash equilibrium because vendors can't risk being honest if everyone else is dishonest/misleading because there's simply too many ignorant purchasers in the market - which is the exact same problem JC Penny had.
At least AT&T is using "5Ge" instead of "5G" unlike they did with HSPA+ and "4G", and I'm okay with that, provided consumers won't think that "5Ge" stands for "Enhanced" instead of "Ersatz".
[+] [-] dragonwriter|7 years ago|reply
The left is number of rolls in the package, the right is the number of the same brand “standard” rolls it is equivalent to by length (there is accommodating text which makes this explicit); this facilitates price comparisons among packages with different roll sizes.
[+] [-] BillinghamJ|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] eugeniub|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] max76|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] JoeAltmaier|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] lemoncucumber|7 years ago|reply
Rather, it's a term for a silly thing California allows automakers to do to get around the requirement of selling actual zero-emissions vehicles: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partial_zero-emissions_vehicle
[+] [-] mc32|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] DannyBee|7 years ago|reply
PZEV's have zero evaporative emissions, and "super ultra low" tailpipe emissions
That's what the "partially zero" means - they have zero evaporative emissions.
[+] [-] calibas|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] _Schizotypy|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] weliketocode|7 years ago|reply
That's called rounding.
Now, imagine your TV was advertised as 4Ke when it was actually 1080p.
That's called false advertising.
[+] [-] LeoPanthera|7 years ago|reply
This happens with projectors. Many projectors are advertised as "4K" when in fact they only accept a 4K signal, but still project a 1080p picture.
Some of them have a kind of hacky trick which involves vibrating the image chip, so that it can project a second set of pixels offset from the first by half a pixel, which gets you a ~2K picture - kinda sorta.
[+] [-] acdha|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mherdeg|7 years ago|reply
Carriers are uncomfortable about publishing the actual throughput and latency characteristics of their Internet access but are perfectly happy to slap a new "g" on their boxes for marketing purposes.
[+] [-] bubblethink|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] grecy|7 years ago|reply
Marketing felt perfectly fine about it, even though it was a blatant lie. They ignored Engineering. I think it's just how the world is now.
[+] [-] fenwick67|7 years ago|reply
Nobody should be shocked that this is happening again for 5G and calling 5G-E.
[+] [-] JustSomeNobody|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] baby|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] anigbrowl|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Wowfunhappy|7 years ago|reply
FTFY. It's not about corporations being evil, per se. Free speech should not be a defense against false advertising, any more than it's a defense against shouting fire in a movie theatre or threatening bodily harm.
[+] [-] whatshisface|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] notSupplied|7 years ago|reply
What is the equivalent step change for 5G that is as significant as OFDMA, or is 5G is purely a collection of incremental improvements?
[+] [-] franciscop|7 years ago|reply
- MP3: Can play audio. Marketing and tech play nice together.
- MP4: Can play video. Marketing and tech play nice together
- MP5: Wait what? Marketing needs "next" iterarion, it doesn't make any sense. It's just MP4 with some random silly feature (depending on the company).
[+] [-] floatboth|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dang|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] basicplus2|7 years ago|reply
Its essentially fraud
[+] [-] stagger87|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] remcob|7 years ago|reply
All these names just confuse consumers and distract from solving the actual problems. The radio technology stack is mostly an implementation detail.
[+] [-] sampo|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] floatboth|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] profmonocle|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] torgian|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kalleboo|7 years ago|reply