This is very important. It’s not yet fully understood, but something is missing yet in our understanding of inflammation.
It’s not everything, just like antibiotics weren’t everything, but progress here will mean curing an incredible amount of human suffering.
The book linked below, a late 2015 text on Molecular Neuropharmacology, is fascinating. Every chapter has a mention of inflammation and usually ibuprofen. It’s that important.
Particularly fascinating is the connection with ADHD, Parkinson’s, and Schizophrenia. All of the diseases have something to do with dysregulation of Dopamine. In particular, it seems like Ibuprofen helps with reducing the effects of Dopamine overload, which is essentially what Schizophrenia is. It’s an inflammation of the mind that is somewhat similar to how we now think sugar causes harm/inflammation. Anyway this overload eventually can lead to underload, or Parkinson’s. ADHD individuals are often overloaded as well due to the treatment with stimulant medication (which is good but can be abused).
I’m not kidding when I say there are Nobel prizes being left on the table here right now.
Interesting definitely adding this to my reading list for self serving reasons. I independently came to similar ideas about inflammation, mostly because I have to take a lot
of Ibuprofen for chronic pain and what works best is taking some preemptively on non painful days. That is, I always tried to think up more reasons for why this isn't a terrible idea.
It’s incredible. This last year this very link has become glaringly obvious to me. When depression kicks into overdrive inflammation seems to be right there with it. I’ve had some somewhat chronic issues and I’m really not sure if I should approach it in a physical sense (pt, excercise, etc) or if I should be doing more mental work.
Can’t wait for the science to mature a bit here for better direction. Pain killers (ibuprofen and others) scare the hell out of me now more than ever because they seem like an easy way out (read: temporary solution). And that’s a dark, dark path to tread on.
It’s not yet fully understood, but something is missing yet in our understanding of inflammation.
Inflammation can have chemical roots. It can also be a side effect of infection.
It seems to me that this is why it's so complicated. Correlation does not prove causation. In order to treat conditions associated with inflammation, wecmay need to identify and resolve the things causing the inflammation.
Was having a similar discussion about this subject with my brother today, I completely agree on the importance. The shift from it being all in the head to recognizing that in many cases there is a physical and treatable illness going on will be a revolution. And not an easy one either.
I suffered from suicidal depression, anxiety, mania, psychosis, paranoia, panic attacks and more.
I flirted with diagnosis of schizoaffective disorder to bipolar.
My life was pretty out of control.
I didn’t like the outcomes I saw of people who were on meds their entire life and I didn’t buy the story from mainstream psychiatry.
I found MDMA therapy via an underground practice and it transformed my life over the course of a few session.
I was able to get to the root of all symptoms and heal what was beneath.
Combined with Holotropic Breathwork and NARM / somatic therapy for integration, this approach blew anything the psychiatrists were offering out of the water.
I’ve been experimenting with CBD and it seems to offer and even deeper level of clarity and non-anxiety.
No psychiatric meds, no symptoms and my creative and romantic life now has something to grown from - before this everything was in a constant cycle of boom and bust.
One of the best things I've ever done for my mood is to switch to a plant based diet full of natural anti inflammatory foods. I noticed a big lift in my mood after the first week and it's stuck with me almost two years later.
I have found for myself that taking Ibuprofen eases both anxiety and depression. It's not a cure but it surprises me how much of a mental effect a mild analgesic has.
This psychiatrist spouting off the "serotonin imbalance" marketing speak from big pharma like it's science is frightening. This has actually never been proven to exist, which is why every ad for SSRIs states "the way this drug is believed to work is...".
And then there's all the terrible side effects they never tell you about before you start taking them, and the fact you likely won't be able to stop using them without horrible withdrawal symptoms...
So much about psychiatry is still more akin to shamanism than actual science and medicine it's frightening.
SSRIs are known to have a substantial anti-inflammatory effect though, as well as other drugs like Wellbutrin.
I don't know if you have actually used SSRIs but the stuff about withdrawal is wildly overblown. Believing scare mongering about terrible side-effects and dependence issues kept me severely depressed and is one of the biggest regrets of my life.
so serendipitous - the other day ago I was putting down some wood flooring in my house and hurt my back a little - something that happens from time to time in exactly the same place - so I knew that I should get on top of it and take a couple of ibuprofen.
So I take a the ibuprofen, and take a break for an a couple hours - and as I noticed the back pain go away - I also noticed a distinct improvement in my mood! I had the exact reaction described in the article "of course, your back doesn't hurt ..duh".
The article makes me wonder if there is another explanation for the mood improvement ..
I was diagnosed with inflammation through having a mold intolerance. Taking cholestyramine and synapsin changed everything. The CFS dissipated and everything seemed to come alive. The main thing that changed though was my mind. Brain fog had gone and a much better mood.
kind of a long yakkety article and not much on tangibles. Yes there's a correlation between depression and inflammation, but there's a much bigger bucket of potential factors going on in this area: depression, sedentary lifestyle, sugar intake, obesity, inflammation, gut bacteria, visceral fat, and a whole lot more. As a clinical depression sufferer, if I change any one of those things, all the others change too. So yes keep looking into it but my own anecdotes and reading suggest there's a more complex ecosystem than just "inflamation == depression" going on.
There have been experiments directly relating the administration of inflammatory endotoxins to immediate depressive symptoms.
All of the stuff you mentioned pertains to inflammation. If gut bacteria is disharmonious or not getting enough fiber it consumes intestinal mucous which creates inflammation
Not only we don’t understand the mechanism causing depression, we don’t really understand (as far as I am aware) why medications work or don’t work. I deal with mild depression sometimes, but this scares me off of considering medication for it. I’ve encountered so many horror stories of withdrawal symptoms... you really need to be at a point of desperation to consider drugs for it, imo.
I think a larger problem is that it’s such a crapshoot about which treatments will work for a given individual, pharmaceutical or not. It took me about 10 therapists with varying backgrounds before I finally found one that would help. It also took me trying several different medications to find a combination that’s actually effective. It’s a lot of work and effort, and most people suffering through depression, anxiety, or another debilitating mental health disorder don’t have the energy to keep trying over and over again after failing. For me it was actually a matter of life or death and needing to keep going for my family that drove me to keep trying.
My first experience with an antidepressant left me feeling quite ill. Ironically, its one of the ones that gets prescribed often because it has little side-effects. Turned out that this wasn't true, and I was one of the small percentage who experienced Discontinuation Syndrome (https://www.karger.com/Article/FullText/370338).
Having such a bad reaction to it lead me down a wild goose chase toward finding out the way my body processes serotonin ala a gene test, helped me figure out what was causing the depression to begin with.
Another reply here talks about how it seems to be a crapshoot for finding effective drugs and a lot of trial and error. I think that there may be promise in doing drug targeting genetic tests and possibly microbiome sampling as a way to help people avoid the run-around. In my case, knowing this ahead of time would have helped me avoid a lot of suffering and 3 years of obsessively searching for answers.
Sadly this is true. "depression", like so many diseases, is named after its symptoms rather than etiology. So if we even have an effective drug, it will only be effective on a subset of the sufferers.
Plus we understand so little macro neurochemistry we don't even understand which apparently correlated biomarkers are causal and which are consequential. The same problem exists with other neurological diseases such as Alzheimers. With depression, as it seems to affect higher function, we even have difficulty (and treatment affordances) with non-chemical stimuli.
Still, it's very much worth working on -- people are suffering such serious debilitation.
Most medications DON'T work for most people. For example here[1] is a meta-analysis from 2004 of the top 6 antidepressants which finds that 80% of the effect is achieved by placebo, and the remaining effect is statistically, but not clinically, significant (that is, the effect size is tiny). Here[2] is another follow-up that shows that there may be effects only in the most severely-depressed patients. In addition the theoretical foundation of many drugs is lacking - the seratonin theory underlying SSRIs, for example, is now widely rejected (although SSRIs continue to be prescribed for some reason probably relating to drug company profits).
Given the well-known addictive nature of most anti-depressants, I have always advised my friends to steer away from them, or wean themselves off, and favor talking therapies instead. Everyone else should do the same.
Pardon me for saying something she has already tried. But here are some ideas.
- put her on a strict meat & veggies only diet (without nightshades)
- Look into low dose naltrexon therapy, there is a LDN facebook group where you can ask questions.
Oh and of course, visit many doctors and ask them about treatment.
You could have her try a zero-carb (carnivore) diet. Nothing but beef, salt and water for a month. Probably won't work but considering all the anecdotal evidence and the fact that it's cheap and easy, I'd say it's worth a shot.
I wonder if changing the gut bacteria might provide her a route to health. A serological impact would deprive her of bacteria that could reduce imflamation
I am a huge fan of "Dr. Berg" on Youtube he helped me a lot with doing Keto/OMAD correct and reducing inflammation. He also has an interesting Video on depression.
[+] [-] Bucephalus355|7 years ago|reply
It’s not everything, just like antibiotics weren’t everything, but progress here will mean curing an incredible amount of human suffering.
The book linked below, a late 2015 text on Molecular Neuropharmacology, is fascinating. Every chapter has a mention of inflammation and usually ibuprofen. It’s that important.
Particularly fascinating is the connection with ADHD, Parkinson’s, and Schizophrenia. All of the diseases have something to do with dysregulation of Dopamine. In particular, it seems like Ibuprofen helps with reducing the effects of Dopamine overload, which is essentially what Schizophrenia is. It’s an inflammation of the mind that is somewhat similar to how we now think sugar causes harm/inflammation. Anyway this overload eventually can lead to underload, or Parkinson’s. ADHD individuals are often overloaded as well due to the treatment with stimulant medication (which is good but can be abused).
I’m not kidding when I say there are Nobel prizes being left on the table here right now.
https://www.amazon.com/Molecular-Neuropharmacology-Foundatio...
[+] [-] auganov|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] thatoneuser|7 years ago|reply
Can’t wait for the science to mature a bit here for better direction. Pain killers (ibuprofen and others) scare the hell out of me now more than ever because they seem like an easy way out (read: temporary solution). And that’s a dark, dark path to tread on.
[+] [-] DoreenMichele|7 years ago|reply
Inflammation can have chemical roots. It can also be a side effect of infection.
It seems to me that this is why it's so complicated. Correlation does not prove causation. In order to treat conditions associated with inflammation, wecmay need to identify and resolve the things causing the inflammation.
[+] [-] starbeast|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ada1981|7 years ago|reply
I flirted with diagnosis of schizoaffective disorder to bipolar.
My life was pretty out of control.
I didn’t like the outcomes I saw of people who were on meds their entire life and I didn’t buy the story from mainstream psychiatry.
I found MDMA therapy via an underground practice and it transformed my life over the course of a few session.
I was able to get to the root of all symptoms and heal what was beneath.
Combined with Holotropic Breathwork and NARM / somatic therapy for integration, this approach blew anything the psychiatrists were offering out of the water.
I’ve been experimenting with CBD and it seems to offer and even deeper level of clarity and non-anxiety.
No psychiatric meds, no symptoms and my creative and romantic life now has something to grown from - before this everything was in a constant cycle of boom and bust.
[+] [-] cortesoft|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] egometry|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] perseusmandate|7 years ago|reply
If so how would you compare their efficacy for your issues
[+] [-] cageface|7 years ago|reply
Check this video for more details: https://youtu.be/4xbNNxQZEgA
[+] [-] _up|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sridca|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rabidrat|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mettamage|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] imperio59|7 years ago|reply
And then there's all the terrible side effects they never tell you about before you start taking them, and the fact you likely won't be able to stop using them without horrible withdrawal symptoms...
So much about psychiatry is still more akin to shamanism than actual science and medicine it's frightening.
[+] [-] perseusmandate|7 years ago|reply
I don't know if you have actually used SSRIs but the stuff about withdrawal is wildly overblown. Believing scare mongering about terrible side-effects and dependence issues kept me severely depressed and is one of the biggest regrets of my life.
[+] [-] andyidsinga|7 years ago|reply
So I take a the ibuprofen, and take a break for an a couple hours - and as I noticed the back pain go away - I also noticed a distinct improvement in my mood! I had the exact reaction described in the article "of course, your back doesn't hurt ..duh".
The article makes me wonder if there is another explanation for the mood improvement ..
[+] [-] brianwawok|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ENTP|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] zzzeek|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] perseusmandate|7 years ago|reply
All of the stuff you mentioned pertains to inflammation. If gut bacteria is disharmonious or not getting enough fiber it consumes intestinal mucous which creates inflammation
[+] [-] david_ar|7 years ago|reply
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sickness_behavior
[+] [-] jeklj|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] finaliteration|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ultimape|7 years ago|reply
Having such a bad reaction to it lead me down a wild goose chase toward finding out the way my body processes serotonin ala a gene test, helped me figure out what was causing the depression to begin with.
Another reply here talks about how it seems to be a crapshoot for finding effective drugs and a lot of trial and error. I think that there may be promise in doing drug targeting genetic tests and possibly microbiome sampling as a way to help people avoid the run-around. In my case, knowing this ahead of time would have helped me avoid a lot of suffering and 3 years of obsessively searching for answers.
[+] [-] gumby|7 years ago|reply
Plus we understand so little macro neurochemistry we don't even understand which apparently correlated biomarkers are causal and which are consequential. The same problem exists with other neurological diseases such as Alzheimers. With depression, as it seems to affect higher function, we even have difficulty (and treatment affordances) with non-chemical stimuli.
Still, it's very much worth working on -- people are suffering such serious debilitation.
[+] [-] perseusmandate|7 years ago|reply
It probably has more to do with a relapse back into depressive symptoms than anything in most cases
[+] [-] InGodsName|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] astazangasta|7 years ago|reply
Given the well-known addictive nature of most anti-depressants, I have always advised my friends to steer away from them, or wean themselves off, and favor talking therapies instead. Everyone else should do the same.
[1] https://www.researchgate.net/publication/228550299_The_Emper...
[2] https://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/article?id=10.1371/jo...
[+] [-] InGodsName|7 years ago|reply
My friend has racing thoughts, feeling tired all time, unable to move, unable to think.
Negatives thoughts amplifying to point where nothing no longer makes sense.
Can such depression be treated?
When she was born, she had a serological conflict.
1. She first recognized it at age 8.
2. Now she's 18
3. Tried sucide at 16
It's not like she doesn't want to get better. She has everything good going for her but her body/brain isn't helping her.
Now, this article makes me wonder if she had this depression since birth and only understood it by 8.
And wether she is still affected by antibodies eating out her cells?
Tho i don't have any real sister but she is like my own sister.
I am willing to spend all my money to see her cured from this depression. But nothing has worked so far.
[+] [-] smnplk|7 years ago|reply
- put her on a strict meat & veggies only diet (without nightshades) - Look into low dose naltrexon therapy, there is a LDN facebook group where you can ask questions.
Oh and of course, visit many doctors and ask them about treatment.
[+] [-] ACC_investor|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] z3t4|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] wolco|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dan_dev_this|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] _up|7 years ago|reply
The 6 Causes of Depression: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OV5OlaPZ6C4
Also fascinating is a lot of interesting medical knowledge he gathers by reading patent applications.
[+] [-] _up|7 years ago|reply