35kWh on a boxy vehicle? As mentioned in the article, more like 150mi range on the standard the US uses to calculate range, and a smaller battery than some Zero motorcycles.
Not tiny, but it's not exactly a slippery vehicle; low mass could help it do better than a tesla-type car at lower speeds, but worse at higher speeds, I imagine.
Charge to 90% and you're at 135mi range, leave a safety margin and now you're looking at 100mi real world. Not bad for most day-to-day, but when you look at real world usage and the safety margins most drivers like to use, it starts getting dicey.
Been in a Great Wall or two. Fine cars. I wouldn't want to crash in one, but they're engineered to a price point.
This is supposed to be an urban car. Almost all trips in cities are less than 20km (Berlin is about 30km across, Beijing maybe twice that). Even a 160km range is plenty if there are chargers where you park your car. I suppose China is building charging stations to match their accelerated introduction of EVs in their cities.
This is what is keeping my wife and I from getting her a Nissan Leaf. She drove a Nissan Versa (basically the same platform but traditional gas engine) until she was hit by another car. The accident was caused by a person in the oncoming lane not seeing her and turning left, striking her driver's side door. The other person was in a mid sized SUV (first gen Jeep Liberty) and was only going about 15MPH when she struck my wife's car, but the force pushed my wife's driver side door all the way into her seat and against her hip. The Versa was severely frame damaged and not driveable; the only damage the Jeep sustained was losing the bumper cover.
Thankfully my wife was not hurt apart from some bruising and soreness on her hip, but if the other car had been going faster (say, at an intersection) she could have been seriously hurt or killed. She is now driving our Crown Victoria, a full frame vehicle with five star crash ratings all around and reinforced doors due to being a former detective's car. Her fuel economy sucks, and she was just moved to a more remote office at her job which makes the Vic a very expensive commuter car now, but we're leery of getting her a subcompact (gas, hybrid, or electric). It's probably an irrational fear; such an accident is probably a once in a lifetime thing, but traffic is insane where we live and work so we both feel much safer with her in "The Tank".
I feel like this is a regulatory issue; my wild-ass guess would be that in the EU, at least, they'll have to be engineered to be a minimum level of crash-safe.
About 50 HP. That's pretty OK for a small city car like that, especially with electric engine which has nice torque from the start. Boxyness doesn't matter much at 30-50 km/h.
It has similar shape and size to Fiat 126p - the car that motorized several communist countries in 70s-80s (and is still used in Cuba). They made millions of them. It had about 600 kg empty mass, and 24 HP. I assume this weighs more because of batteries, but surely not twice as much?
It wasn't comfortable (back seats were designed for people about 160 cm tall :) ), and certainly wasn't safe (famously - the structural integrity during a crash depended on a spare tire being in it's intended place in the front trunk, and even then any serious crash was deadly).
But there were almost no heavy cars on the roads then, and you weren't supposed to drive it over 80km/h anyway - it felt like you're in a formula one when you exceeded 90 km/h, and it took over 40 seconds to achieve 100km/h speed :)
I would be OK with driving this in city traffic, especially if it was allowed on bus lanes and if access to the city center was paid for ICE cars.
24kWh has been pushing Nissan Leafs around for eight years.
and a smaller battery than some Zero motorcycles.
Well, you made me look, at least. Because if they can fit a 35kWh battery on a bike, I’m buying one tomorrow. They don’t, of course. The biggest thing Zero makes is a tenth that size.
Something that keeps me from getting an hybrid or electric vehicle is that I can no longer fix them. My '01 Subaru is a simple machine. When something goes wrong there are only a few potential issues and usually it is either something I can do myself or something my mechanic can do for less than $500.
My mechanic won't even look at electric or hybrid cars because he isn't certified. My brother in laws hybrid Nissan had an issue over Christmas. I took a look at it and a mechanic took a look at it (friend of the family doing him a favor). Turned out to be an electronic issue, dealer ended up having to replace a controller that cost north of $1200.
When they diagnosed it I did some research and discovered that I could replace it, but much like the market for HVAC parts, I wasn't allowed to purchase the part...
I will probably ve sticking with my Subaru and get my wife (who is looking for a new car after hers died) an early 00s vehicle that I can still repair for less than ridiculous prices.
My understanding is that the failure rates are so low on electric motors, you won’t need to fix lots of problems like on an ICE-powered vehicle. As someone that has owned a lot of shitty gas cars and had to repair them myself, I’d relish the chance for an electric.
Automobiles nowadays are more like electronics with more sophisticated ECUs and drive-by-wire technologies on throttle, breaks etc. With self-driving on the horizon, they are going to be more compute intensive and be more powerful in computing than your smartphones and your average personal computers. Btw, electric vehicles are more suitable for self-driving due to the electricity requirements of AI computing.
Are you ever going to be able to fix them yourself if they are broken? Probably not (unless you have a electronic shop with all the equipments and are savvy in electronics like iFixIt guys do, but even then you can't fix a IC chip if it's fried.)
Just like an iPhone, as it's more integrated and smarter and more powers, the repairability is going down. So get used to it.
PS: on the flip side, more IC chips in designs generally provide a more solid and reliable product (probably with exception) and cheaper the cost due to economy of scale in manufacturing and reduced in labor, which is why you can have an EV with 200miles of range with less than $10k price tag.
> "I will probably ve sticking with my Subaru and get my wife (who is looking for a new car after hers died) an early 00s vehicle that I can still repair for less than ridiculous prices."
A simple counter-argument is that an early 00s vehicle will break a lot more than a newer car. So even if you can fix it yourself or repairs are cheaper (which is questionable), a new car would break down a lot less often.
I agree with your sentiment, but I think you should look at the bigger picture. Subarus have a reputation for being easy to repair, a testament to thoughtful engineering. But most other brands are not that accessible, whether they're electric or ICE. So you might as well say you'll only buy Subaru rather than you wouldn't buy electric or hybrid.
Next, long range electric cars are a new technology and the tools and parts needed to repair them are still exotic. This is likely to change as electric cars become more common. Ideally, I'd recommend selecting electric cars that use standard components so they can be easily swapped or repaired. I don't know that these standards will ever arise, and that's not really how it worked out for ICE cars. But if the ability to repair and maintain your vehicle is a priority, that's a quality you should be looking for.
Isn't this a matter of having mechanics and electricians certified in maintaining electric cars? Presumably as these cars become more popular electricians will flock to this line of work because that's where the demand is going.
>When they diagnosed it I did some research and discovered that I could replace it, but much like the market for HVAC parts, I wasn't allowed to purchase the part...
What are you talking about? You can buy all the automotive HVAC parts you need on Ebay or elsewhere. I did this for my ex-wife's car a couple years ago; with the help of a friend and his hose/gauge set, we replaced the compressor and recharged the system. It wasn't too hard.
Did you try looking on Ebay for the controller you needed?
For my '15 Mazda (non-hybrid), I can easily buy any part I need online from various OEM parts stores.
it's a transitional period, a bit like smartphones, you can't put your fingers on the part, you have to have hot air gun, lenses etc etc. Repair shop will transition but so far the status was : electronics are not for repair..
When EV will be a major % people will fix because it will be regular market/customers. Also as other people said, EVs are 10x, if not more, simpler than ICE so we may (depending on QA) need less repairs.
Also I believe that swappable parts will become the norm, quick swap batteries ala Tesla, etc etc
I have a second car just for doing school runs. Never does more than 5km in a day, never goes over 40km/h. Still it requires expensive maintenance. I have long said I should replace it with something more like a golf-cart or electric bike with kids in a trailer or something. This kind of car could be that. I’m happy with a 20km range but it has to be cheap. The current car I use is worth less than the cost of its overdue timing belt change.
I've long had the notion that we shouldn't drive anything heavier than a golf cart in cities. It would be a lot safer for everyone and even teenagers could drive them.
It’s a shame this isn’t possible at the moment, I suppose the safety requirements of cars that need to be able to run on highways means a substantial minimum cost.
I almost wonder whether we shouldn’t have two overlapping road systems, one for residential streets and one for transport routes.
You could have a class of cars that only run on the residential streets which would be half way between a moped and a car, with 1-4 seats, a range of 30-50 miles, and a cost of $5-8k.
One of my friends used an electric tricycle (the kind in China used for light hauling) to take his kids to school during his sabbatical in Beijing. Might not be legal in Europe though.
Ignoring whether this is a great engineering accomplishment or not:
> In addition, the big data cloud that is created as the result of the information collected from the ORA app, the ORA shopping site and the Tmall e-shop opens the way to the development of multiple scenarios for offline sales
I don't see that much discussion about this trend, but I consider it a threat to security as well as just plain bad UX. All these UX gimmicks and "features" I already loathe in web apps, I really don't want them in my car. Pay to unlock, tracking, remote control, AI. Sure, it's comfort, but what is the price? At this point I prefer a 90's car where you just turn the key and it works or don't.
I think one trend we've seen emerging in markets everywhere is that despite competition in the market there isn't significant differentiation. So you'd think great, we've got this tech and I'll go with the company where I pay a little more and don't have to give up all my privacy. But instead what we end up with is 90% of companies bundling in all the privacy invasion stuff (because they like the new revenue stream or the share holders demand they follow the trend or they simply can't make the margin on the product) and then 10% of companies go right to the top end, and whilst you get your privacy you're also paying for massively premium products.
I see this in the smart home devices - you can trust NONE of them, with the exception of a tiny minority like Apple who also then charge a fortune extra because they're trying to sell a premium product for other reasons. So in the end you're not overwhelmed by choice, you're railroaded.
Nah I don’t think this is get off my lawn. “Features” have become the modern version of the next big thing, and humans are drawn to them like moths to a flame. In the rush we’ve given up a lot of personal rights to corporations without second thought. This isn’t like the invention of cars where people irrationally wanted to cling to a simpler way of life. This has been a tremendous paradigm shift for the autonomy and liberty of our citizens.
And as we see China implementing a dystopian social credit system, we really ought to be considering what traps were setting for our future selves.
Oh you didn’t pay off your Facebook credit card on time? Guess we’ll deactivate your car and drive it back to the factory until you sort that out. Hm looks like you like to go to some sketchy businesses that we don’t really think you should be going to? Ok we’re going to block off areas of the city where you’re permitted to drive to - trust us, it’s for your own good.
If we had that mythical “benevolent government” then sure this shouldn’t be an issue. But in this country you can literally be chilling in your apartment playing video games (or just chilling...) and get raided/murdered by police who are following a random SWAT call.
I don’t trust my primary mode of escape to be locked down by the government. And no one should.
Does anyone know the $$ hidden in the phrase "with incentives". If there are 20k of incentives, this press release is much less impressive than if there are $2k of incentives.
Personally, I am very bullish on electric cars, and am hoping this is the start of a lot of other automakers releasing affordable (to little ol me) electric cars.
Is "Great Wall Motor" a name that's supposed to appeal to English-speaking audiences? It's not my first language, but even to me "Motor" sounds just wrong, it should be "Motors". No matter how often I read it, it still seems wrong.
Sorry for bikeshedding, but I don't drive a car :P
Keep in mind this is with significant subsidies. A 33kWh battery pack alone costs more than that retail. You can make anything cheap to the consumer when you funnel tax money into it.
> In addition, the big data cloud that is created as the result of the information collected from the ORA app, the ORA shopping site and the Tmall e-shop opens the way to the development of multiple scenarios for offline sales and services as well as new transportation services for both drivers and passengers.”
In other words: a vending machine calling itself a car.
This actually has almost the same range as my petrol car - it's a terrible Kia automatic with a microscopic gas tank that gets 225 miles on a full tank. I suppose these won't be sold in Europe because they don't pass safety standards?
there is one more reasons why electric cars are popular in Beijing or shanghai, good luck getting license plate for gasoline engine and license plate itself will cost almost as much as this car
if you would have to pay free thousands euros just for license plate and even to get it you would have to win lottery, most if the people would think twice about buying gasoline engine cars
Wish we could get cheap cars in the U.S. Our prices are crazy.
I recall hearing the smart car could be sold cheaply in its original country, but after importing it and meeting all U.S. requirements, the price quadrupled.
[+] [-] rconti|7 years ago|reply
Not tiny, but it's not exactly a slippery vehicle; low mass could help it do better than a tesla-type car at lower speeds, but worse at higher speeds, I imagine.
Charge to 90% and you're at 135mi range, leave a safety margin and now you're looking at 100mi real world. Not bad for most day-to-day, but when you look at real world usage and the safety margins most drivers like to use, it starts getting dicey.
Been in a Great Wall or two. Fine cars. I wouldn't want to crash in one, but they're engineered to a price point.
[+] [-] adrianN|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] TheSpiceIsLife|7 years ago|reply
This Great Wall Motors ORA R1 would be ideal for me as a daily river. I'd only need to charge it once a week!
> I wouldn't want to crash in one, but they're engineered to a price point.
Great Wall Motors sell vehicles in Australia, so presumably they've passed all the relevant crash tests? Not sure about the ORA R1 though, obviously.
Edit to add: ObsoleteNerd's comment https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18775462 supports your claim that you probably don't want to be in a Great Wall accident.
[+] [-] morganvachon|7 years ago|reply
This is what is keeping my wife and I from getting her a Nissan Leaf. She drove a Nissan Versa (basically the same platform but traditional gas engine) until she was hit by another car. The accident was caused by a person in the oncoming lane not seeing her and turning left, striking her driver's side door. The other person was in a mid sized SUV (first gen Jeep Liberty) and was only going about 15MPH when she struck my wife's car, but the force pushed my wife's driver side door all the way into her seat and against her hip. The Versa was severely frame damaged and not driveable; the only damage the Jeep sustained was losing the bumper cover.
Thankfully my wife was not hurt apart from some bruising and soreness on her hip, but if the other car had been going faster (say, at an intersection) she could have been seriously hurt or killed. She is now driving our Crown Victoria, a full frame vehicle with five star crash ratings all around and reinforced doors due to being a former detective's car. Her fuel economy sucks, and she was just moved to a more remote office at her job which makes the Vic a very expensive commuter car now, but we're leery of getting her a subcompact (gas, hybrid, or electric). It's probably an irrational fear; such an accident is probably a once in a lifetime thing, but traffic is insane where we live and work so we both feel much safer with her in "The Tank".
[+] [-] ummonk|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] peteretep|7 years ago|reply
I feel like this is a regulatory issue; my wild-ass guess would be that in the EU, at least, they'll have to be engineered to be a minimum level of crash-safe.
[+] [-] ajuc|7 years ago|reply
It has similar shape and size to Fiat 126p - the car that motorized several communist countries in 70s-80s (and is still used in Cuba). They made millions of them. It had about 600 kg empty mass, and 24 HP. I assume this weighs more because of batteries, but surely not twice as much?
It wasn't comfortable (back seats were designed for people about 160 cm tall :) ), and certainly wasn't safe (famously - the structural integrity during a crash depended on a spare tire being in it's intended place in the front trunk, and even then any serious crash was deadly).
But there were almost no heavy cars on the roads then, and you weren't supposed to drive it over 80km/h anyway - it felt like you're in a formula one when you exceeded 90 km/h, and it took over 40 seconds to achieve 100km/h speed :)
I would be OK with driving this in city traffic, especially if it was allowed on bus lanes and if access to the city center was paid for ICE cars.
[+] [-] baybal2|7 years ago|reply
My knowledge of engineering suggests me that Great Wall guys are lying.
[+] [-] cuu508|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mikestew|7 years ago|reply
24kWh has been pushing Nissan Leafs around for eight years.
and a smaller battery than some Zero motorcycles.
Well, you made me look, at least. Because if they can fit a 35kWh battery on a bike, I’m buying one tomorrow. They don’t, of course. The biggest thing Zero makes is a tenth that size.
[+] [-] danieldisu|7 years ago|reply
The main problem is charging, but that could also be fixed by installing chargers in the financial districts where only electric cars can park...
[+] [-] pard68|7 years ago|reply
My mechanic won't even look at electric or hybrid cars because he isn't certified. My brother in laws hybrid Nissan had an issue over Christmas. I took a look at it and a mechanic took a look at it (friend of the family doing him a favor). Turned out to be an electronic issue, dealer ended up having to replace a controller that cost north of $1200.
When they diagnosed it I did some research and discovered that I could replace it, but much like the market for HVAC parts, I wasn't allowed to purchase the part...
I will probably ve sticking with my Subaru and get my wife (who is looking for a new car after hers died) an early 00s vehicle that I can still repair for less than ridiculous prices.
[+] [-] JohnJamesRambo|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] devy|7 years ago|reply
Are you ever going to be able to fix them yourself if they are broken? Probably not (unless you have a electronic shop with all the equipments and are savvy in electronics like iFixIt guys do, but even then you can't fix a IC chip if it's fried.)
Just like an iPhone, as it's more integrated and smarter and more powers, the repairability is going down. So get used to it.
PS: on the flip side, more IC chips in designs generally provide a more solid and reliable product (probably with exception) and cheaper the cost due to economy of scale in manufacturing and reduced in labor, which is why you can have an EV with 200miles of range with less than $10k price tag.
[+] [-] pwaivers|7 years ago|reply
A simple counter-argument is that an early 00s vehicle will break a lot more than a newer car. So even if you can fix it yourself or repairs are cheaper (which is questionable), a new car would break down a lot less often.
[+] [-] loudmax|7 years ago|reply
Next, long range electric cars are a new technology and the tools and parts needed to repair them are still exotic. This is likely to change as electric cars become more common. Ideally, I'd recommend selecting electric cars that use standard components so they can be easily swapped or repaired. I don't know that these standards will ever arise, and that's not really how it worked out for ICE cars. But if the ability to repair and maintain your vehicle is a priority, that's a quality you should be looking for.
[+] [-] cies|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] barkingcat|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] magduf|7 years ago|reply
What are you talking about? You can buy all the automotive HVAC parts you need on Ebay or elsewhere. I did this for my ex-wife's car a couple years ago; with the help of a friend and his hose/gauge set, we replaced the compressor and recharged the system. It wasn't too hard.
Did you try looking on Ebay for the controller you needed?
For my '15 Mazda (non-hybrid), I can easily buy any part I need online from various OEM parts stores.
[+] [-] agumonkey|7 years ago|reply
When EV will be a major % people will fix because it will be regular market/customers. Also as other people said, EVs are 10x, if not more, simpler than ICE so we may (depending on QA) need less repairs.
Also I believe that swappable parts will become the norm, quick swap batteries ala Tesla, etc etc
[+] [-] Robotbeat|7 years ago|reply
Electric cars are not fundamentally less fixable. Mechanics just don't know them yet.
[+] [-] alkonaut|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] FigBug|7 years ago|reply
https://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtm...
[+] [-] adrianN|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] forinti|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] hasperdi|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Brakenshire|7 years ago|reply
I almost wonder whether we shouldn’t have two overlapping road systems, one for residential streets and one for transport routes.
You could have a class of cars that only run on the residential streets which would be half way between a moped and a car, with 1-4 seats, a range of 30-50 miles, and a cost of $5-8k.
[+] [-] kwhitefoot|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] cr0sh|7 years ago|reply
If your car has an interference engine, that timing belt change could get even more expensive really quick, should it fail...
[+] [-] seanmcdirmid|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|7 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] blackbrokkoli|7 years ago|reply
> In addition, the big data cloud that is created as the result of the information collected from the ORA app, the ORA shopping site and the Tmall e-shop opens the way to the development of multiple scenarios for offline sales
I don't see that much discussion about this trend, but I consider it a threat to security as well as just plain bad UX. All these UX gimmicks and "features" I already loathe in web apps, I really don't want them in my car. Pay to unlock, tracking, remote control, AI. Sure, it's comfort, but what is the price? At this point I prefer a 90's car where you just turn the key and it works or don't.
Is this just "get-off-my-lawn" thinking?
[+] [-] Traster|7 years ago|reply
I see this in the smart home devices - you can trust NONE of them, with the exception of a tiny minority like Apple who also then charge a fortune extra because they're trying to sell a premium product for other reasons. So in the end you're not overwhelmed by choice, you're railroaded.
[+] [-] thatoneuser|7 years ago|reply
And as we see China implementing a dystopian social credit system, we really ought to be considering what traps were setting for our future selves.
Oh you didn’t pay off your Facebook credit card on time? Guess we’ll deactivate your car and drive it back to the factory until you sort that out. Hm looks like you like to go to some sketchy businesses that we don’t really think you should be going to? Ok we’re going to block off areas of the city where you’re permitted to drive to - trust us, it’s for your own good.
If we had that mythical “benevolent government” then sure this shouldn’t be an issue. But in this country you can literally be chilling in your apartment playing video games (or just chilling...) and get raided/murdered by police who are following a random SWAT call.
I don’t trust my primary mode of escape to be locked down by the government. And no one should.
[+] [-] zizee|7 years ago|reply
Personally, I am very bullish on electric cars, and am hoping this is the start of a lot of other automakers releasing affordable (to little ol me) electric cars.
[+] [-] PavlovsCat|7 years ago|reply
Sorry for bikeshedding, but I don't drive a car :P
[+] [-] driverdan|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] anoncoward111|7 years ago|reply
... we can be sure the US will do lots to ban importing these.
[+] [-] ryanmarsh|7 years ago|reply
checks specs
62mph top speed, 33kwh battery, 150mi real world range, looks like the size of a smart car. Yep. No surprises here.
I bet the fit and finish is worse than a Ford Ranger
[+] [-] baybal2|7 years ago|reply
In other words: a vending machine calling itself a car.
[+] [-] Tobias42|7 years ago|reply
It would be interesting to know what the unsubsidized price is and if it ever comes to the west.
The e.Go Life has a similar concept but does not seem to be able to compete on price or battery capacity.
[+] [-] rwmj|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sparkpeasy|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|7 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] Markoff|7 years ago|reply
if you would have to pay free thousands euros just for license plate and even to get it you would have to win lottery, most if the people would think twice about buying gasoline engine cars
[+] [-] unknown|7 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] cauldron|7 years ago|reply
https://twitter.com/GeorgStieler/status/1075195222953349120
[+] [-] codazoda|7 years ago|reply
I recall hearing the smart car could be sold cheaply in its original country, but after importing it and meeting all U.S. requirements, the price quadrupled.
[+] [-] qaq|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] newnewpdro|7 years ago|reply