Back in 2016 I followed Justin Kan on Snapchat and he used to hang out with Steve Huffman on his stories.
I recall a few particular snap stories where they went out to Justin's new house and were shooting guns, throwing axes and generally doing fun outdoor stuff. I do seem to recall at some point there was talk about survivalist stuff in those snaps.
I've done quite a lot of survival training with the US Government and have been in places where people lived by those skills daily. I have to say that the majority of what these guys are doing, and what most "rich guy" survivalists do, as indicated by this story, is mostly worthless. Especially long term.
There's a hat tip to the most important part, forming groups and all the rest of the community building work, which is not inappropriate, but it's missing the point where you basically do that now with a diverse set of people - not just your rich friends - which is actually a sustainable strategy.
There's a lot to nitpick here but I guess the most interesting thing to me is that, for all their wealth, access and smarts, none of these people seem to actually be trying to solve the systematic and endemic problems which would soften the blow of a major existential risk.
In that sense Levchin and Johnson are 100% on the money here with investing in structural improvement, not some temporary escape plan that doesn't survive first contact with a handful of real actual killers.
> for all their wealth, access and smarts, none of these people seem to actually be trying to solve the systematic and endemic problems which would soften the blow of a major existential risk
They may be. This is just a silly hobby to bond over. Sort of like zombie apocalypse preppers. The few that are serious aren’t doing press interviews.
I agree and it makes me sad. I always say: imagine all these smart people currently working on “stupid” business problems would start solving the real issues we have. In my view we’re investing too little brain power into these. And even though Musk is a bit of a weird fellow I think he’s doing that: using his connections to gather huge sums to solve some existential problems.
BTW: I watched those snapchat stories too. Mark Suster had good ones as well
> I've done quite a lot of survival training with the US Government and have been in places where people lived by those skills daily. I have to say that the majority of what these guys are doing, and what most "rich guy" survivalists do, as indicated by this story, is mostly worthless. Especially long term.
Exactly. Because eventually the diesel gas for the generators runs out so that your water filters don't work anymore. What do you do? Can these people dig a fountain without being buried alive during the process of digging? Can they tell where to dig? Do they know how to make a chariot/waggon for when their truck won't work anymore? (remember, you're out of gas). Do they know how to raise horses/cows?
There's a lot to nitpick here but I guess the most interesting thing to me is that, for all their wealth, access and smarts, none of these people seem to actually be trying to solve the systematic and endemic problems which would soften the blow of a major existential risk.
When the best and brightest of a society are heading for the hills, that's a sign problems are coming. It's not that just they may have concrete reasons to do this but it seems like the society itself by this fact has lost the cohesion that would prevent disaster. And if powerful people don't imagine themselves are the protectors of the common good, who does? etc.
Of course, this situation is a bit of a self-fulling prophecy.
These guys (and Women?) are at the extreme end of the economic and social hierarchy. The only thing that might endanger their position is if society collapses. Prepping is sort of an insurance policy against the long odds of society collapsing. All societies have collapsed and once the process starts it can happen quickly. They can devote the resources to guard against rare events, because they are already protected against other concerns (they mostly have plenty of money).
IMO, this type of behavior is the same as the bio-hacking crowd trying to beat aging / maximize health. They have everything else covered, so they move out further-and-further on the tail of their perceived threat.
Why would a wealthy person trust something like the Survival Condo Project? Once SHTF and society collapses and rule of law goes away, what's to keep the armed guards from taking over and eliminating their formerly wealthy clients (or just locking the place down and refusing to let anyone in)?
Why bother keeping a bunch of old (formerly) rich men around when the guards can just get rid of them and take their share of the supplies to help ensure the survival of their own families and friends?
> Why bother keeping a bunch of old (formerly) rich men around when the guards can just get rid of them and take their share of the supplies to help ensure the survival of their own families and friends?
Nothing, really. Back when Western society was in a state of feudal anarchy (mostly after the dissolution of the Carolingian empire and up to the late 1100s) the monied people (which meant mostly the traders) had no power at all, in the words of Adalberon, bishop of Laon [1], "the whole edifice of mankind" was supported by "oratores, bellatores, laboratores", that is by the clergy ("oratores"), by the "warriors", i.e. nobles who could go to war at any one moment, and by the common people, the peasants, the people doing the actual work. The monied people were nowhere to be seen and treated quote contemptuously by the "oratores" and the "bellatores".
A couple of years ago I applied for a job at Hipmunk and ended interviewing with Steve, then the CTO. I don’t remember everything but at some point he did ask me to write a program that prints out a spiral.
Reading this article, and remembering that interview, made me realize that no one can really know what the collapse of civilization will look like, but it is always good to be prepared with a two dimensional array or a good GUI library.
anecdotally, it feels like the tech elite are trying to outsmart the system (such as prepping for doomsday scenarios), rather than trying to improve the system to prevent, or lower the probability of the doomsday scenario in the first place
> rather than trying to improve the system to prevent, or lower the probability of the doomsday scenario in the first place
I’m not sure Sillicon Valley billionaire can do much too save the earth from collapsing.
It’s not about rich changing the world to save it, it’s about the world monetary system , capitalism and thermo-industrial economy that has climax and is now going to end.
Hence , every society has cycles. Roman era disappeared, Vikings disappeared etc... this society will disappear as well and let something new come.
First thing I notice in the article...(prob) an ex-military man with automatic weapons serving as a guard. In a doomsday scenario he will, eventually, kill or enslave all those nerdy guys that paid a fortune to seeking shelter there.
But then you have everything else and buying these things are a drop in the bucket. Makes sense even if it has a very small chance of happening. What's an extra billion going to do to Steve Ballmer life? Nothing. Money after a while loses value, living is another matter.
Douglas Rushkoff had a podcast where he talked about being paid by these guys to come up with ways to keep their armed guards from turning on them. The billionaires suggested shocker collars (maybe even with explosives) and controlling the food supply by a combination lock.
Their cover photo is a joke if you have even the slightest idea of what you’re looking at.
Double stacked D&H mags with no pulls, an Anderson “poverty pony” AR, BUIS behind a 1.5x ACOG on an 18” with a cheap non-QD Mount (iron sights with a magnified optic in between doesn’t work)... I’m sure there is more.
But... for the Steve Huffman and similar types, they’ll just see what they want. The real joke would be Randy and his $999 AR (with optic) will just rob Steve-types blind the second there is a without rule of law scenario.
> The real joke would be Randy and his $999 AR (with optic) will just rob Steve-types blind the second there is a without rule of law scenario.
I've always wondered how they'd prevent that. How does Randy not shoot Steve or take him hostage and then bring his own family into the compound.
I am sure there are a few schemes, ranging from benign like promise a huge payday at the end, lots of land, resources, power whatever to more sinister ones, like hire another Randy (possible a lot more than one) to watch the first one if he (she) tries to do something.
Former combat zone contractor here: I would bet $20 that tacticool guy in the photo wishes so hard he had actually been hired as PSD by blackwater or triple canopy in 2005. Instead he probably ended up running logistics for the dfac at KAF.
When society falls apart the rich won’t have anything that the poor won’t. The people who built these bunkers for the super rich are going to put a 9mm in the back of their head and invite their brother Steve to take the owners spot. “Combination locks on the food supply?” Waterboard the guy till he gives us the combo, then kill him.
This could be solved with resource access requiring multiparty agreement, like the Bitcoin multisignature wallets: the location that contains the food and water for a week requires permission from 2 parties that are located in 2 separate geographical locations
I wish more people understood Doomsday prepping is really more of a hobby than an actual concern over the total collapse of all civilization.
It’s fun to prepare, and to think of every scenario no matter how outlandish, and it’s fun to make people think you are super serious about something that seems ridiculous to them.
It is like a game where you collect as many resources and skills to increase your survival score as much as possible.
I'm literally a national champion at a ridiculous hobby, so I feel pretty confident that many of these people are actually super serious. People get way invested in stupid shit all the time.
> But in recent years survivalism has expanded to more affluent quarters, taking root in Silicon Valley and New York City, among technology executives, hedge-fund managers, and others in their economic cohort.
Rich people being paranoid and preparing for disasters is not exactly a new thing. I guess we are supposed to believe that the affluent are somehow more sane than the rest of us.
Perhaps YC’s Sam can chime in with his reasoning of prepping a loaded gun, and private jet to New Zealand.[0]
Also, if he could chime in with any advice he has to make sure that the hired armed guards don’t turn on him. Perhaps disciplinary collars or controlling the food supply?[1]
It's a guide written by the author of american fuzzy lop (afl), and while it touches on end-of-civilization, guns-n-ammo prep, much of it is about practical preparedness for more likely disasters, such as a prolonged and widespread power outage; and how to reduce the risk of financial ruin or serious injury.
You can't prepare for the complete collapse of civilization.
Even the Survivalists who go out with "nothing" and build their shelters, start their own fires, hunt their food, they still need backpacks to carry their gear. They still need gear to carry, like saws, axes, fishing poles, knives. They still need clothes to wear. They still depend on the infrastructure of society in myriad ways.
The fact that they share these doomsday beliefs implies that they understand that something is wrong with the system and maybe that they are responsible for it to begin with.
I don't understand the motivation for them to leak these stories to the news though. Do they expect regular people to feel sorry for them and that this will prevent or delay the doomsday?
I cannot fathom the logic here. Movers and shakers who shape the world pissing away resources on some kind of personal "insurance" if everything goes to hell instead of investing in making sure things don't go to hell.
If they put half as much time, money, thought and effort into fixing some of the glaring boils on the butt of the world, they could stop metaphorically sucking their billion dollar thumbs this way.
There is plenty of evidence that a lot of the financial distress in the US of the masses is rooted in a lack of genuinely affordable housing -- and, no, I don't mean poverty housing. In 2010, an architect coined the term "missing middle housing" to describe middle class housing historically widely available in walkable urban neighborhoods that we have largely zoned out of existence. In the last roughly fifty years, we've torn down a million SRO's in this country.
Health care. We need a single payer system. The ACA is not a great solution. It was just the most politically viable. Frankly, that sucks.
This country already has a system where you flash an ID and get care and there is minimal paperwork and almost no billing. It's well-established and well-developed, but it only serves military members, retirees and their dependents. We don't need to look to other countries and wonder how they do "free" medical care. We have a system on US soil doing that.
Research shows that proper medical coverage helps reduce homelessness. If you provide proper medical coverage and make appropriate housing available to the masses at a reasonable cost, then we can stop living in dread of the collapse of civilization.
I blog, but I have no audience and can get no traction. If rich guys in SV propose ridiculous solutions, like UBI, they get interviews and yadda and everyone takes it seriously, though they aren't actually particularly qualified to propose some solution and it looks to me like BS preening. I feel like if I say too much on such subjects, I risk being banned from HN because I'm just a woman, I'm quite poor and I was homeless for years and yadda. If rich people who haven't actually studied it say something, it's charity or kindness of some nonsense like that. I've actually studied this stuff, but if I say something, it's "political" because I'm not the right kind of people and Hacker News eschews politics.
I've redacted multiple paragraphs of "Doreen is finally snapping after 9.5 years of being essentially shunned and yadda."
Could someone kindly tell me where and how I can successfully get an audience and some kind of engagement, in spite of being the wrong gender and the wrong socioeconomic class? I would be happy to just go the fuck away and leave you folks alone who clearly want nothing to do with me if I could find some means to get engagement elsewhere.
I find your argument compelling, and IMO you should not be scared to get banned from HN for that kind of comment. It‘s actually in line with many other comments here.
I too feel that there are not enough women commenting here. The discussions would be more complete and interesting if that wasn’t the case. We obviously only get a half of the picture without female participation.
It’s offtopic, but since you asked for it. Being highly controversial/polarizing does often help growing an audience, I‘ve seen this time and again. I don’t know how long you have been doing what you are doing now, but I heard growing an audience for a YT channel/blog/etc takes a couple of years of continuous effort, posting as much as possible. I mean, pewdiepie (whatever one thinks about him) uploads every single day.
A person with money can get an audience regardless of gender, while a person without money will be ignored regardless of gender. It like the song, "money don't talk, it swears". To quote a professor in biology, neurology and neurological science, the biggest mistake a individual can do is to be born in the wrong socioeconomic class. If I know the trick for a person in the wrong socioeconomic class to get a massive audience and engagement, in spite of being male, I would change so much in the world. Sadly I don't, which is a bit depressing to be saying at this time of the year.
But I do find some comfort that socioeconomic status is only relative. A person that is rich, or a person where everyone else beside them is poor, has the same socioeconomic status. They get the same audience, same engagement, same health benefit and social power. If there were a way to damping the perceived social status signals that people use, we could in theory create a online space which socioeconomic class had no effect. Alternative we could hope that culture would reduce how we grant social status, but that political fight had its prime around 50 years ago and been replaced by more tribal themes like gender. I really wish the discussion would go back and focus on those issues you brought up in the first 50% of the comment, ie health care, housing and food which given the Maslow's hierarchy has a very large effect on the stability of nations.
[+] [-] AndrewKemendo|7 years ago|reply
I recall a few particular snap stories where they went out to Justin's new house and were shooting guns, throwing axes and generally doing fun outdoor stuff. I do seem to recall at some point there was talk about survivalist stuff in those snaps.
I've done quite a lot of survival training with the US Government and have been in places where people lived by those skills daily. I have to say that the majority of what these guys are doing, and what most "rich guy" survivalists do, as indicated by this story, is mostly worthless. Especially long term.
There's a hat tip to the most important part, forming groups and all the rest of the community building work, which is not inappropriate, but it's missing the point where you basically do that now with a diverse set of people - not just your rich friends - which is actually a sustainable strategy.
There's a lot to nitpick here but I guess the most interesting thing to me is that, for all their wealth, access and smarts, none of these people seem to actually be trying to solve the systematic and endemic problems which would soften the blow of a major existential risk.
In that sense Levchin and Johnson are 100% on the money here with investing in structural improvement, not some temporary escape plan that doesn't survive first contact with a handful of real actual killers.
[+] [-] JumpCrisscross|7 years ago|reply
They may be. This is just a silly hobby to bond over. Sort of like zombie apocalypse preppers. The few that are serious aren’t doing press interviews.
[+] [-] baxtr|7 years ago|reply
BTW: I watched those snapchat stories too. Mark Suster had good ones as well
[+] [-] paganel|7 years ago|reply
Exactly. Because eventually the diesel gas for the generators runs out so that your water filters don't work anymore. What do you do? Can these people dig a fountain without being buried alive during the process of digging? Can they tell where to dig? Do they know how to make a chariot/waggon for when their truck won't work anymore? (remember, you're out of gas). Do they know how to raise horses/cows?
[+] [-] joe_the_user|7 years ago|reply
When the best and brightest of a society are heading for the hills, that's a sign problems are coming. It's not that just they may have concrete reasons to do this but it seems like the society itself by this fact has lost the cohesion that would prevent disaster. And if powerful people don't imagine themselves are the protectors of the common good, who does? etc.
Of course, this situation is a bit of a self-fulling prophecy.
[+] [-] mgamache|7 years ago|reply
IMO, this type of behavior is the same as the bio-hacking crowd trying to beat aging / maximize health. They have everything else covered, so they move out further-and-further on the tail of their perceived threat.
[+] [-] roywiggins|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] KozmoNau7|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Johnny555|7 years ago|reply
Why bother keeping a bunch of old (formerly) rich men around when the guards can just get rid of them and take their share of the supplies to help ensure the survival of their own families and friends?
[+] [-] paganel|7 years ago|reply
Nothing, really. Back when Western society was in a state of feudal anarchy (mostly after the dissolution of the Carolingian empire and up to the late 1100s) the monied people (which meant mostly the traders) had no power at all, in the words of Adalberon, bishop of Laon [1], "the whole edifice of mankind" was supported by "oratores, bellatores, laboratores", that is by the clergy ("oratores"), by the "warriors", i.e. nobles who could go to war at any one moment, and by the common people, the peasants, the people doing the actual work. The monied people were nowhere to be seen and treated quote contemptuously by the "oratores" and the "bellatores".
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adalberon_(bishop_of_Laon)
[+] [-] ronilan|7 years ago|reply
Reading this article, and remembering that interview, made me realize that no one can really know what the collapse of civilization will look like, but it is always good to be prepared with a two dimensional array or a good GUI library.
[+] [-] sgustard|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nannotequalnan|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] chillacy|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] asien|7 years ago|reply
I’m not sure Sillicon Valley billionaire can do much too save the earth from collapsing.
It’s not about rich changing the world to save it, it’s about the world monetary system , capitalism and thermo-industrial economy that has climax and is now going to end.
Hence , every society has cycles. Roman era disappeared, Vikings disappeared etc... this society will disappear as well and let something new come.
[+] [-] onetimemanytime|7 years ago|reply
But then you have everything else and buying these things are a drop in the bucket. Makes sense even if it has a very small chance of happening. What's an extra billion going to do to Steve Ballmer life? Nothing. Money after a while loses value, living is another matter.
[+] [-] jonathankoren|7 years ago|reply
https://medium.com/s/futurehuman/survival-of-the-richest-9ef...
[+] [-] gefh|7 years ago|reply
Mixing metaphors has never been my strong suit though...
[+] [-] SlowRobotAhead|7 years ago|reply
Double stacked D&H mags with no pulls, an Anderson “poverty pony” AR, BUIS behind a 1.5x ACOG on an 18” with a cheap non-QD Mount (iron sights with a magnified optic in between doesn’t work)... I’m sure there is more.
But... for the Steve Huffman and similar types, they’ll just see what they want. The real joke would be Randy and his $999 AR (with optic) will just rob Steve-types blind the second there is a without rule of law scenario.
[+] [-] rdtsc|7 years ago|reply
I've always wondered how they'd prevent that. How does Randy not shoot Steve or take him hostage and then bring his own family into the compound.
I am sure there are a few schemes, ranging from benign like promise a huge payday at the end, lots of land, resources, power whatever to more sinister ones, like hire another Randy (possible a lot more than one) to watch the first one if he (she) tries to do something.
[+] [-] walrus01|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pndd90|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|7 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] fipple|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tudorconstantin|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] matte_black|7 years ago|reply
It’s fun to prepare, and to think of every scenario no matter how outlandish, and it’s fun to make people think you are super serious about something that seems ridiculous to them.
It is like a game where you collect as many resources and skills to increase your survival score as much as possible.
[+] [-] village-idiot|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] AnIdiotOnTheNet|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|7 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] makz|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jcoffland|7 years ago|reply
Rich people being paranoid and preparing for disasters is not exactly a new thing. I guess we are supposed to believe that the affluent are somehow more sane than the rest of us.
[+] [-] jonathankoren|7 years ago|reply
Also, if he could chime in with any advice he has to make sure that the hired armed guards don’t turn on him. Perhaps disciplinary collars or controlling the food supply?[1]
[0] https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/feb/15/why-silicon-val...
[1] https://medium.com/s/futurehuman/survival-of-the-richest-9ef...
[+] [-] kderbe|7 years ago|reply
It's a guide written by the author of american fuzzy lop (afl), and while it touches on end-of-civilization, guns-n-ammo prep, much of it is about practical preparedness for more likely disasters, such as a prolonged and widespread power outage; and how to reduce the risk of financial ruin or serious injury.
[+] [-] NotANaN|7 years ago|reply
Even the Survivalists who go out with "nothing" and build their shelters, start their own fires, hunt their food, they still need backpacks to carry their gear. They still need gear to carry, like saws, axes, fishing poles, knives. They still need clothes to wear. They still depend on the infrastructure of society in myriad ways.
[+] [-] jondubois|7 years ago|reply
The fact that they share these doomsday beliefs implies that they understand that something is wrong with the system and maybe that they are responsible for it to begin with.
I don't understand the motivation for them to leak these stories to the news though. Do they expect regular people to feel sorry for them and that this will prevent or delay the doomsday?
[+] [-] malandrew|7 years ago|reply
https://medium.com/s/story/the-surprisingly-solid-mathematic...
[+] [-] dang|7 years ago|reply
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13482107
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13462865
[+] [-] DoreenMichele|7 years ago|reply
If they put half as much time, money, thought and effort into fixing some of the glaring boils on the butt of the world, they could stop metaphorically sucking their billion dollar thumbs this way.
There is plenty of evidence that a lot of the financial distress in the US of the masses is rooted in a lack of genuinely affordable housing -- and, no, I don't mean poverty housing. In 2010, an architect coined the term "missing middle housing" to describe middle class housing historically widely available in walkable urban neighborhoods that we have largely zoned out of existence. In the last roughly fifty years, we've torn down a million SRO's in this country.
Health care. We need a single payer system. The ACA is not a great solution. It was just the most politically viable. Frankly, that sucks.
This country already has a system where you flash an ID and get care and there is minimal paperwork and almost no billing. It's well-established and well-developed, but it only serves military members, retirees and their dependents. We don't need to look to other countries and wonder how they do "free" medical care. We have a system on US soil doing that.
Research shows that proper medical coverage helps reduce homelessness. If you provide proper medical coverage and make appropriate housing available to the masses at a reasonable cost, then we can stop living in dread of the collapse of civilization.
I blog, but I have no audience and can get no traction. If rich guys in SV propose ridiculous solutions, like UBI, they get interviews and yadda and everyone takes it seriously, though they aren't actually particularly qualified to propose some solution and it looks to me like BS preening. I feel like if I say too much on such subjects, I risk being banned from HN because I'm just a woman, I'm quite poor and I was homeless for years and yadda. If rich people who haven't actually studied it say something, it's charity or kindness of some nonsense like that. I've actually studied this stuff, but if I say something, it's "political" because I'm not the right kind of people and Hacker News eschews politics.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_room_occupancy
https://streetlifesolutions.blogspot.com/2018/12/the-missing...
I've redacted multiple paragraphs of "Doreen is finally snapping after 9.5 years of being essentially shunned and yadda."
Could someone kindly tell me where and how I can successfully get an audience and some kind of engagement, in spite of being the wrong gender and the wrong socioeconomic class? I would be happy to just go the fuck away and leave you folks alone who clearly want nothing to do with me if I could find some means to get engagement elsewhere.
Thanks.
[+] [-] manmal|7 years ago|reply
I too feel that there are not enough women commenting here. The discussions would be more complete and interesting if that wasn’t the case. We obviously only get a half of the picture without female participation.
It’s offtopic, but since you asked for it. Being highly controversial/polarizing does often help growing an audience, I‘ve seen this time and again. I don’t know how long you have been doing what you are doing now, but I heard growing an audience for a YT channel/blog/etc takes a couple of years of continuous effort, posting as much as possible. I mean, pewdiepie (whatever one thinks about him) uploads every single day.
[+] [-] belorn|7 years ago|reply
But I do find some comfort that socioeconomic status is only relative. A person that is rich, or a person where everyone else beside them is poor, has the same socioeconomic status. They get the same audience, same engagement, same health benefit and social power. If there were a way to damping the perceived social status signals that people use, we could in theory create a online space which socioeconomic class had no effect. Alternative we could hope that culture would reduce how we grant social status, but that political fight had its prime around 50 years ago and been replaced by more tribal themes like gender. I really wish the discussion would go back and focus on those issues you brought up in the first 50% of the comment, ie health care, housing and food which given the Maslow's hierarchy has a very large effect on the stability of nations.