Some points that are getting lost in the discussion below. I work at Facebook.
1. Facebook lets you export your data. It has been possible to do so ever since the graph API debuted in April '10. Since the market wasn't filling the gap, we even built a "download your information" product (https://register.facebook.com/editaccount.php -> Download Your Information). It gives you a zip file with all your contact info, photos, video, status updates, wall posts, etc. If somebody would like to write an importer for Diaspora, or Google Me, or even a non-vaporware competitor, they are well within Facebook's ToS, imho.
2. Facebook allows other sites programmatic access to the social graph. Yes, the supposed "crown jewels." That's exactly what Facebook Connect is for. You can see it in the wild on Pandora, Netflix, Yelp, Quora, and literally millions of other websites that are already doing what Google claims it wants to do: identify your Facebook friends.
3. Most importantly, what Google is insisting on is completely insane.
The ability to export my friends' email sounds good, but as with so many social product ideas (e.g., themed backgrounds for profiles), it stops sounding so good when you realize everybody has the same power. Think of it instead as: all of your Facebook friends can export your email to anybody who writes a Facebook app. Those spam quizzes? Every farm simulation knock-off flash game? The day Facebook does this, every Facebook user will wake up with their inbox crammed solid with spam from random Facebook applications that they do not even use.
What Google has not explained is why they need friends' email addresses, per se. Why couldn't whatever message they want to transmit be transmitted via Facebook messages, or wall posts, which send email notifications to almost all users anyway, and are already available via third-party APIs? This entire "not open enough!" straw man is a set of moving goalposts that Google will use to justify whatever competitive maneuvering they find convenient.
Facebook is in the right here, people. The product decision Google is asking Facebook to take would be a disaster for Facebook users. Meanwhile, the lever Google is using to attack Facebook comes entirely at the expense of GMail's users, who before this episode were voting with their feet by the millions to import their contact data to Facebook, and no longer have that option. Google is making its users' lives worse, in an attempt to make Facebook make its users lives worse.
1) FB only recently added this export data ability - before then, all they did was consume and never gave back. They are lucky no one called them out before.
2) You do want to export friends' emails because they are my friends and I should be able to maintain their emails regardless. I want to leave facebook, export the data, and import it elsewhere. It's fine that they are refusing to give an API for it (although they can make the application request for permission for it first) but if I am exporting all my data into a zip file, I expect that information to be there. I am sure Google wouldn't be complaining if FB did just this. If a user is stupid enough to import all their contact info back into a random FB application manually and gets spammed, then let them be.
3) Stop spinning this like Google is making their users' lives worse. Google allows this and FB doesn't because FB wants to trap all their information inside of their ecosystem. They are not right. They are one of the worse companies that try to spin automatic opt-in (confuse users and hope they never opt-out) to make them release more information.
4) Explain to me why FB blocking Twitter, blocking iTunes, blocking Google is GOOD for any of their users.
A quibble about the "download your information" feature:
This is not data export. It's a nice offline look at some of the data I have on facebook, but not all the dt I've added, nor complete data of what it claims to have.
The archive of messages does not contain all the messages that are in my inbox, let alone the deleted ones that should be produced. Not enough information about profile changes, picture changes, etc. is included.
An export of data from facebook should include information on all interactions interact with anyone on facebook. That's the information I put in, that's what I expect out.
What you do have is a token effort to appease the people who don't really care, but are scared into demanding it by their friends who do care. It doesn't solve our problem, only yours.
If you agree it's wrong to allow a friend to export my e-mail address, why should Google allow it either? It seems like Facebook wants to have its cake and eat it too.
>It gives you a zip file with all your contact info, photos, video, status updates, wall posts, etc. If somebody would like to write an importer for Diaspora, or Google Me, or even a non-vaporware competitor, they are well within Facebook's ToS, imho.
If I'm trying to write an importer for this Facebook data, how can I differentiate John Smith (my friend) from the thousand other John Smiths? It's easy to do if I have John's email.
>3. Most importantly, what Google is insisting on is completely insane.
Facebook can figure out who people know. They don't need to use facebook. Their friends' contact list is enough to construct a semblance of their social circle.
So the repercussions isn't limited to that person. They are implicating their friends' privacy (no matter how minor) to the very anti-consumer-privacy fronted company Facebook.
> The ability to export my friends' email sounds good, but as with so many social product ideas (e.g., themed backgrounds for profiles), it stops sounding so good when you realize everybody has the same power.
Then why does Facebook allow this very feature to yahoo mail users??
or "facebook won't let you liberate your facebook data to alternate providers".
i don't understand why people tolerate facebook. they don't seem deserving of the trust people give them. first opt-in/opt-out privacy issues, now this... plus it doesn't seem like they're really trying to make money yet. i suppose this is what the initial "exclusivity" of the facebook brand got them: loyalty without needing trust.
Most non-technical average users (read: the majority of their users ) just don't really understand / care about the privacy issues.
They just love the experience they can find at and pretty much only at the facebook site.
The tech press and media make an initial fuss about all of it but by the time they figure out a way to bring it down to a level the masses can understand facebook has put a notification on the top of the News Feed to explain.
I'm not agreeing with the practices merely attempting to explain why in the minds of the lion share of facebook users mind it just does not matter
People tollerate them because they won they social space. The winners always get free passes on things that only matter to a few people. Most people dont think about getting their data out. Where would they put it?
Facebook has undeniably value. Connecting with other people is a pretty universal trait so it's no wonder Facebook has those half a billion people. That's what I use it for, too.
However, unlike some of those half a billion people, I do care about protecting my private life somewhat. Yet I'm willing to give up something for the value I find in the connectivity that Facebook provides. Depending on what personal information is at the stake, on how Facebook acts, and on your privacy expectations that something clearly varies.
For me, keeping any of Facebook's potential negative impacts to the minimum comes down to sanitizing the privacy settings and rechecking them every other month or so (or following any of the facebook privacy news articles) for new changes.
What really upsets me about Facebook is I refuse to start an account there but they already know everything about me because they tricked all my AOL/gmail-using friends into giving them full access to their contact lists.
So I constantly get spam from Facebook personalized with my name, location and list of friends, based on all the stupid data they have sucked up. It's borderline stalking.
Joining and locking down the account by disabling all the notifications would make them stop spamming you. Dunno what's more important to you, getting rid of the spam, or the principle of not having an account there?
Uh, exporting your address book from Google and uploading it to Facebook is perfectly within any user's rights - it's a textbook example of data liberation. Now if only I could export my facebook pictures and easily import them into Picasa, or sync my facebook wall with my Buzz stream...
Your photos are easily accessible using the Graph API[1]. I wrote a python script which downloads all your photos and saves them to your computer[2]. However, I agree that Facebook doesn't make it easy for other web services to access stored data.
Beyond the script from derferman, you can download a copy of all of your photos (and videos, wall posts, etc) as a zip file directly off of Facebook from the bottom of your Account Settings page.
Google could easily fix this w/o impacting other services: block Facebook's referrer. And then present them with an opt-in page for Google.me... BOOM! Instant win? High five.
Google could also block any facebook links from appearing as google search results if things become more tenuous. I highly doubt this would ever happen since they might face a heavy duty backlashing, but the thought is intriguing.
I do agree.
Some people have referrer turned off, but afaik, they are the minority and this should do the trick. Google surely though about it.
This also works the other way. If you rely on FB assets (images, ...), they can shut your access down immediately the very same way. Can't say I like it.
You do know the referer header is optional don't you, I mean, you'd look pretty dumb relying on it for any web service because, you know, some crazy people turn them off altogether, perhaps with the Firefox add-on RefControl.
Google should just get in contact with Hacker News - they are great at preventing their precious data from getting out. I've never seen a big data set go up on bit torrent and have all traces vanish so rapidly!
I would never give my gmail password to any third party proxy. So this is how I imported my gmail email addresses to facebook a few years ago in the first place. I took the export from Gmail in CSV format, cleaned out anything but email addresses, and fed them in Facebook.
Wonder if there will be statistics released on how many google users export data using this method. That would signal an interesting trend. Of course anything coming from Facebook HQ would have to taken with a pinch of salt.
I don't think the Nazis ever claimed to be liberating France. It was actually the Brits who wanted to "liberate" France but General de Gaulle kind of interfered with that by talking on the radio. But I know what you mean.
[+] [-] kmavm|15 years ago|reply
1. Facebook lets you export your data. It has been possible to do so ever since the graph API debuted in April '10. Since the market wasn't filling the gap, we even built a "download your information" product (https://register.facebook.com/editaccount.php -> Download Your Information). It gives you a zip file with all your contact info, photos, video, status updates, wall posts, etc. If somebody would like to write an importer for Diaspora, or Google Me, or even a non-vaporware competitor, they are well within Facebook's ToS, imho.
2. Facebook allows other sites programmatic access to the social graph. Yes, the supposed "crown jewels." That's exactly what Facebook Connect is for. You can see it in the wild on Pandora, Netflix, Yelp, Quora, and literally millions of other websites that are already doing what Google claims it wants to do: identify your Facebook friends.
3. Most importantly, what Google is insisting on is completely insane.
The ability to export my friends' email sounds good, but as with so many social product ideas (e.g., themed backgrounds for profiles), it stops sounding so good when you realize everybody has the same power. Think of it instead as: all of your Facebook friends can export your email to anybody who writes a Facebook app. Those spam quizzes? Every farm simulation knock-off flash game? The day Facebook does this, every Facebook user will wake up with their inbox crammed solid with spam from random Facebook applications that they do not even use.
What Google has not explained is why they need friends' email addresses, per se. Why couldn't whatever message they want to transmit be transmitted via Facebook messages, or wall posts, which send email notifications to almost all users anyway, and are already available via third-party APIs? This entire "not open enough!" straw man is a set of moving goalposts that Google will use to justify whatever competitive maneuvering they find convenient.
Facebook is in the right here, people. The product decision Google is asking Facebook to take would be a disaster for Facebook users. Meanwhile, the lever Google is using to attack Facebook comes entirely at the expense of GMail's users, who before this episode were voting with their feet by the millions to import their contact data to Facebook, and no longer have that option. Google is making its users' lives worse, in an attempt to make Facebook make its users lives worse.
[+] [-] arron61|15 years ago|reply
2) You do want to export friends' emails because they are my friends and I should be able to maintain their emails regardless. I want to leave facebook, export the data, and import it elsewhere. It's fine that they are refusing to give an API for it (although they can make the application request for permission for it first) but if I am exporting all my data into a zip file, I expect that information to be there. I am sure Google wouldn't be complaining if FB did just this. If a user is stupid enough to import all their contact info back into a random FB application manually and gets spammed, then let them be.
3) Stop spinning this like Google is making their users' lives worse. Google allows this and FB doesn't because FB wants to trap all their information inside of their ecosystem. They are not right. They are one of the worse companies that try to spin automatic opt-in (confuse users and hope they never opt-out) to make them release more information.
4) Explain to me why FB blocking Twitter, blocking iTunes, blocking Google is GOOD for any of their users.
[+] [-] moxiemk1|15 years ago|reply
This is not data export. It's a nice offline look at some of the data I have on facebook, but not all the dt I've added, nor complete data of what it claims to have.
The archive of messages does not contain all the messages that are in my inbox, let alone the deleted ones that should be produced. Not enough information about profile changes, picture changes, etc. is included.
An export of data from facebook should include information on all interactions interact with anyone on facebook. That's the information I put in, that's what I expect out.
What you do have is a token effort to appease the people who don't really care, but are scared into demanding it by their friends who do care. It doesn't solve our problem, only yours.
[+] [-] mikebo|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|15 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] zck|15 years ago|reply
If I'm trying to write an importer for this Facebook data, how can I differentiate John Smith (my friend) from the thousand other John Smiths? It's easy to do if I have John's email.
[+] [-] inafewwords|15 years ago|reply
Facebook can figure out who people know. They don't need to use facebook. Their friends' contact list is enough to construct a semblance of their social circle.
So the repercussions isn't limited to that person. They are implicating their friends' privacy (no matter how minor) to the very anti-consumer-privacy fronted company Facebook.
[+] [-] patrickaljord|15 years ago|reply
Then why does Facebook allow this very feature to yahoo mail users??
[+] [-] dododo|15 years ago|reply
i don't understand why people tolerate facebook. they don't seem deserving of the trust people give them. first opt-in/opt-out privacy issues, now this... plus it doesn't seem like they're really trying to make money yet. i suppose this is what the initial "exclusivity" of the facebook brand got them: loyalty without needing trust.
[+] [-] wh-uws|15 years ago|reply
They just love the experience they can find at and pretty much only at the facebook site.
The tech press and media make an initial fuss about all of it but by the time they figure out a way to bring it down to a level the masses can understand facebook has put a notification on the top of the News Feed to explain.
I'm not agreeing with the practices merely attempting to explain why in the minds of the lion share of facebook users mind it just does not matter
[+] [-] bbuffone|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] johns|15 years ago|reply
[0] http://www.allfacebook.com/facebooks-ad-revenue-to-surpass-1...
[1] http://techcrunch.com/2010/09/01/facebook-will-hit-2-billion...
[+] [-] yason|15 years ago|reply
However, unlike some of those half a billion people, I do care about protecting my private life somewhat. Yet I'm willing to give up something for the value I find in the connectivity that Facebook provides. Depending on what personal information is at the stake, on how Facebook acts, and on your privacy expectations that something clearly varies.
For me, keeping any of Facebook's potential negative impacts to the minimum comes down to sanitizing the privacy settings and rechecking them every other month or so (or following any of the facebook privacy news articles) for new changes.
[+] [-] chadgeidel|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ck2|15 years ago|reply
So I constantly get spam from Facebook personalized with my name, location and list of friends, based on all the stupid data they have sucked up. It's borderline stalking.
[+] [-] henrikschroder|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] andreyf|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Derferman|15 years ago|reply
[1]: http://developers.facebook.com/docs/reference/api/photo
[2]: https://github.com/derferman/scrapebook
[+] [-] axod|15 years ago|reply
Don't rely on facebook keeping your photos, let alone allowing you to export them.
[+] [-] indigoviolet|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] daveman692|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] michaelhart|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gabea|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] adn37|15 years ago|reply
This also works the other way. If you rely on FB assets (images, ...), they can shut your access down immediately the very same way. Can't say I like it.
[+] [-] c1sc0|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] konad|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mrspeaker|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] yason|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] krosaen|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] atamyrat|15 years ago|reply
Maybe Google should respond by removing that restriction.
This API was implemented specially for Facebook and only used by them.
[+] [-] codyguy|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bhavin|15 years ago|reply
Sounds like Nazis 'liberating' France in WW2.
[+] [-] dawgr|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] noahkagan|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] RtodaAV|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] RtodaAV|15 years ago|reply