> Gardeners, for one, can plant milkweed to support the surviving monarchs. And towns could help local habitats thrive by planting new trees now so that in 20 years, generations of monarchs have new places to winter.
Highlighting this for anyone that didn't catch it in the article.
Sure we should all do our part. But farmers could reduce their use of herbicides SLIGHTLY so that milk weed could go on the fringes of farmland like it used to and the problem would go away in very quickly.
I raised this with the Sierra Club of Illinois and they said that Archer Daniels was too powerful and there was no point. But the herbicides are a huge contributor to the problem. We are a democracy, no?
>Tropical milkweed available at many retail nurseries is not native to the U.S. However it has naturalized in the Southeastern U.S. Science is discovering that its long bloom time may have some detrimental effects on monarch migration and possibly be a source to spread disease within monarch populations.
I keep planting milkweed at my house but apparently the bunnies and deer in my neighborhood love the stuff... and I've had three years of dead milkweed at the end of the season.
Will try again this year, with a higher chicken wire fence around the plant area. Many local organizations provide free milkweed seeds and/or plants to get you started (we have the Missouri Botanical Garden in St. Louis which provides seeds every year).
“The Xerces Society for Invertebrate Conservation, a nonprofit group that conducts a yearly census of the western monarch, said the population reached historic lows in 2018, an estimated 86 percent decline from the previous year.
That in itself would be troubling news. But, combined with a 97 percent decline in the total population since the 1980s, this year’s count is ‘potentially catastrophic,’ according to the biologist Emma Pelton.”
That’s the hard bit for me.
What are we doing to this planet? What will it become? The monarchs are a blessing of a creature. Will we just watch them wither away? Can we escape our petty dramatized politics and think of what we are passing on to future generations? Not just high tech benefits, but mountains of plastics for packaging, toys, and many “novelties” that are useless except for cheap thrills.
So while many will say our system has brought great wealth for humans, it’s important to think about which humans have seen wealth and which have seen further destruction. And what species and vistas all of humanity lost to gain our treasures. Those too have a cost, but not much that any of us will have to bear. The cost is paid by someone else we’ve never met or who may never be born yet. But sometimes, stories like this remind us of the great damage we are doing to this Earth.
"Monarchs in the western part of the United States migrate for the winter to California, where they gather mostly among fragrant eucalyptus trees, which provide hospitable living conditions."
These eucalyptus trees, many planted in the 1800's and are now quite large and beautiful, are under attack by many environmental groups for being non-native and others for being a fire hazard. Maybe they did not even winter in California until those invasive trees were planted?
Life is complicated, but in general humans have been becoming much more respectful of the environment as we become more wealthy. The key to preserving the wonderfully complicated ecosystems on Earth is probably to continue as rapidly as possible with our tech improvements (and get back on pace from where we stopped in the 1970's) and to eventually turn all of Earth into a park, a la Bezo's plan. Don't work to shut down nuclear power tech (we have plenty of coal to burn and that is much worse) but help it improve. Support a safe waste storage solution instead of using that problem to shut down future construction.
The other alternative really boils down to a belief that it would be best if humans weren't around. Most humans rightly oppose this view and evolution will tend to support an increase in people with that view in the long run. A religion that has "don't have children" as a belief won't last long.
Super sad, it's not even something that requires measuring to see. I visited the Monarch sanctuary in Santa Cruz in 2017 and there were thousands of butterflies easily visible. In 2018 it was so hard to spot even groups of tens.
Technically, the planet is doomed. Practically and pragmatically, everyone who is living here today, has a good chance to enjoy his days, no matter what will happen next.
I'm not advocating the way we destroy our planet, just trying to accept facts without emotional barrier. Could be wrong here.
What are we doing to this planet? What will it become? The monarchs are a blessing of a creature. Will we just watch them wither away? Can we escape our petty dramatized politics and think of what we are passing on to future generations? Not just high tech benefits, but mountains of plastics for packaging, toys, and many “novelties” that are useless except for cheap thrills.
But have you seen the latest VR tech? You can just put on a headset and swear your were back at that state park with mom and dad, in front of that old eucalyptus positively twitching with Monarchs.
I'd really like to know how fireflies/lightning bugs have been impacted. It's anecdotal, but it seems to me there has been a precipitous fall in their populations as well here in the midwest.
I remember childhood evenings filled with them, they were everywhere, our grass was constantly crawling with them during the day. Now, I rarely ever see any during the day and at night I can count all the flashes.
It's not all my imagination. My cousin lives next to a farm. They have a couple acres they turned into a natural prairie. You can see the difference, the prairie lights up with activity at night, the farm is dead. A flash here or there is all you can see. Absolute stark contrast to the farm fields and well manicured laws of their neighbors.
We used to have them every few feet when I was a kid (enough that any given night we could catch a few in a jar, observe, then release), but some nights I see maybe one or two in an entire night. My kids don't know the joy of playing with lightning bugs that I knew :(
My brother’s yard and mine positively swarm with fireflies. More than I remember as a child. It’s because we don’t mow our yards much, and we allow large patches of wild local prairie like plants. Our neighboring yards have almost no insect life at all. So yes, our obsession with trim, grass lawns is a big problem.
I visited the Pacific Grove butterfly sanctuary each of the past couple of years. It's really amazing. This year (2018), the count was way down, but they were saying (hoping) it was a bit too early in the season yet. I guess not :-/
IMHO, there's no point in individual action, we need collective political action in the form of massive government intervention, pretty much like in a total war economy. The free market clearly has failed here:
- Carbon tax.
- Carbon tariffs.
- Expropriation of all oil fields, the oil has to stay in the ground.
- Criminal prosecution of executives and shareholders of Oil companies much like what should have happened to the Tobacco industry.
- Job program (right to employment) to re-train the workforce in green technologies, specially in areas that will be affected by the aforementioned measures.
Sorry, but that will never work and isn't feasible to implement.
The real problem is that billions of people want to drive and buy products that require burning oil to produce. Oil companies are just giving people what they want.
Shutting down oil companies before dealing with the massive demand is a recipe for failure.
Criminal prosecution of shareholders of oil companies? You do realize this basically includes every human with pension, mutual fund or ETF holdings right? The notion is unfounded. Shareholders are not breaking any laws.
It is up to the government to set the rules and allow the market to play within them. Expropriation of oilfields would imply the government pick winners and losers and would be a devastating blow to property rights. If you advocate change, you should focus on advocating (fair) change in the regulatory framework.
Why not simply let the market decide which carbon emissions are of the most marginal value to society. You do this through cap and trade or carbon taxes, not from picking winners and losers.
Very much disagree. You can both take individual action and push for systemic change, for two reasons.
Individual action can make a meaningful difference, maybe not in curbing climate change, but at least in supporting biodiversity in your little corner of the world, if ever so small. In the case of the monarchs, you can help by preserving their habitat by planting milkweed. There's a lot of examples of other small scale conservation efforts that make a real difference.
If you have some time to spare, Jonathan Franzen wrote an article about your defeatist attitude https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/04/06/carbon-capture, contrasting it to the meaningful work that can be done, and should be done by people of all means. It's well written, if not his message, you may enjoy his prose.
Second, taking individual action, however small, is the right thing to do. Eventually, somebody needs to be the first to step up. Some people already do, by making choices that reduce their carbon footprint, lowering their daily driving needs, travelling less by airplane, living smaller, whatever it may be.. Be that first person. When you lead by example, advocating for systemic change might actually work, as more and more people may follow in your footsteps.
This bill https://energyinnovationact.org/ (also [1]) is in the US Congress right now. It includes a carbon fee-and-dividend (both a tax and tariffs, the proceeds of which are distributed among all residents of the nation).
Please call your representative and tell them supporting this policy is the most important thing they'll ever do. Also get everyone you know to do the same.
Second:
Criminal prosecution of executives and shareholders of Oil companies,
- Will never be politically tractable
- Is equivalent to prosecution of someone for loading a gun, rather than the person who pulled the trigger
- Does divesting from a company even hurt that company? I mean if the company is not trying to raise cash by selling shares? If they aren't trying to sell stock, why do they care about the share price?
That may seem like a feasible way forward but you can look at what happened when France took a step in this direction. Theyve since stepped all the way back and the protests are still ongoing.
And rightly so. The reason it's unfair is because the general population shouldn't be the ones to pay for the disaster that is our environment. They bought the cars because they needed them to survive in this economy. The people who should be punished are the big players that pushed the economy in this direction in the first place. They should be the ones to carry this load for everyone, and nobody else.
I have a feeling that people who perform individual actions are more likely to vote for collective ones. And the campaigns to promote individual actions can be a much easier sell.
I once read that the way to get people to donate to the red cross is first ask them if they would like to wear a free red cross ribbon. Then a week later ask them if they would like to donate. I suspect environmentalism could work the same way.
I second this. I'm 41 and have seen how privatization has mainly only led to decline in the areas I care about like the environment and workers' rights. Sure we have a good economy currently, but I feel that's in spite of rampant capitalism, not because of it.
As a kid here in Idaho, I remember seeing lots of Monarch butterflies and the others that imitate them. Today I see only moths and smaller white butterflies (we still have some large wood moths in the forests thankfully).
I think the problem is that young people today think that this is how things are supposed to be. They aren't old enough to remember pre-Reagan, or the fellowships, mens/womens groups and even religious volunteer groups of my grandparents' generation - which remembered the dangers of the Great Depression when there was no social safety net, and fascism in WWII.
Just for a poll, does anyone here believe that the free market can provide solutions to the externalities listed in this thread? Please include your age and why.
Yes, of course. We've spiked CO2 levels like crazy. We've slathered our farms, our lawns, our houses with organophosphates and neonicotinoids. And still we think that these things are small problems requiring maybe some little incremental tweak here and there to fix. Bug populations have cratered across the US in the last 20-30 years and this has received only the slightest bit of attention and almost no press coverage. That has a wide ranging impact on the entire ecosystem and is just one tiny aspect of how we're changing the world.
We are basically just children refusing to accept even the most basic levels of responsibility and stewardship for the world we live in.
It's likely that all matters of unsustainable behavior will eventually be looked upon that way by a more enlightened future. Unless we continue to dumb ourselves down with misinformation, willful ignorance, and the banishment of uncomfortable/unpopular ideas, of course.
I heard an interview where the scientist said that we need to stop mowing our lawns. This will help the butterfly and bee population to thrive. We need to change our township laws so that we can do that. That is a tough challenge but something we can achieve if we work together.
I don't think grasses, even tall ones, are particularly useful for butterflies and bees.
I think you may find it more effective to create some some mulched areas for growing wildflowers and perennials like milkweed.
Mowed lawns are silly and ecologically destructive for several reasons, but I think re:insects its more about habitat loss than any properties of the lawn itself.
I've been suspicious of things like Roundup weed killer for a while. Over the last several years, I've stopped using residential weed killers on my property, and I have noticed a little uptick in monarchs and fireflies recently.
Of course, it's more annoying keeping your yard looking immaculate without those chemicals - you have to pull weeds more, but it's not really that big of a deal.
Don't try to make the land around your home "immaculate". Suburban lawns are a terrible idea, especially in the Western US. Diverse plant communities are much more attractive and hospitable to wildlife.
This is so sad to hear. I lived in Pacific Grove as a child about 18 years ago. The monarchs would cover trees and entire yards, turning them bright orange. It was the closest thing that we had to seasons. To be 27 and realizing that this natural wonder could already be a thing of the past is heartbreaking.
I'm curious about how many species that aren't visible to the naked eye are disappearing. Most of the species that we know are in decline are those that we can easily see and therefore easily notice. How about the microworld? Bacteria? Other things that are critical to the life-cycle?
Life requires the bio-mass to perpetuate; if people take up the share of all bio-mass in their bodies life finds a way to unlock and reuse that material. I'm guessing a new microorganism that will take the place of some of these depleting species.
Or how about the bacteria that is able to break down plastic? We (still)have to worry about the various fungus that developed and transitioned the world out of the carboniferous period.
I'm wondering if the fires may have had an impact. We found one during the hazy days that wasn't really moving and nursed it back to health before returning it to the wild after the smoke cleared. I know butterflies have only a limited time in that form but I like to think it made it.
This article says rising CO2 is making milkweed toxic, and as everyone knows we are killing milkweed (as "weed") - with a billion stems needed to fix the problem:
I planted butterfly bushes and milkweed to attract more butterflies in our area. After my city started spraying city-wide for mosquitoes, the butterflies and bees vanished.
[+] [-] iaw|7 years ago|reply
Highlighting this for anyone that didn't catch it in the article.
Edit: Link to artursapek's comment on a seed supplier (in this thread but buried under a low voted parent) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18912699
[+] [-] rwoodley|7 years ago|reply
I raised this with the Sierra Club of Illinois and they said that Archer Daniels was too powerful and there was no point. But the herbicides are a huge contributor to the problem. We are a democracy, no?
[+] [-] everybodyknows|7 years ago|reply
>Tropical milkweed available at many retail nurseries is not native to the U.S. However it has naturalized in the Southeastern U.S. Science is discovering that its long bloom time may have some detrimental effects on monarch migration and possibly be a source to spread disease within monarch populations.
https://www.nwf.org/Garden-For-Wildlife/About/Native-Plants/...
[+] [-] geerlingguy|7 years ago|reply
Will try again this year, with a higher chicken wire fence around the plant area. Many local organizations provide free milkweed seeds and/or plants to get you started (we have the Missouri Botanical Garden in St. Louis which provides seeds every year).
[+] [-] kevmo|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jobbagy|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Eric_WVGG|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] TaylorAlexander|7 years ago|reply
That in itself would be troubling news. But, combined with a 97 percent decline in the total population since the 1980s, this year’s count is ‘potentially catastrophic,’ according to the biologist Emma Pelton.”
That’s the hard bit for me.
What are we doing to this planet? What will it become? The monarchs are a blessing of a creature. Will we just watch them wither away? Can we escape our petty dramatized politics and think of what we are passing on to future generations? Not just high tech benefits, but mountains of plastics for packaging, toys, and many “novelties” that are useless except for cheap thrills.
So while many will say our system has brought great wealth for humans, it’s important to think about which humans have seen wealth and which have seen further destruction. And what species and vistas all of humanity lost to gain our treasures. Those too have a cost, but not much that any of us will have to bear. The cost is paid by someone else we’ve never met or who may never be born yet. But sometimes, stories like this remind us of the great damage we are doing to this Earth.
[+] [-] njarboe|7 years ago|reply
"Monarchs in the western part of the United States migrate for the winter to California, where they gather mostly among fragrant eucalyptus trees, which provide hospitable living conditions."
These eucalyptus trees, many planted in the 1800's and are now quite large and beautiful, are under attack by many environmental groups for being non-native and others for being a fire hazard. Maybe they did not even winter in California until those invasive trees were planted?
Life is complicated, but in general humans have been becoming much more respectful of the environment as we become more wealthy. The key to preserving the wonderfully complicated ecosystems on Earth is probably to continue as rapidly as possible with our tech improvements (and get back on pace from where we stopped in the 1970's) and to eventually turn all of Earth into a park, a la Bezo's plan. Don't work to shut down nuclear power tech (we have plenty of coal to burn and that is much worse) but help it improve. Support a safe waste storage solution instead of using that problem to shut down future construction.
The other alternative really boils down to a belief that it would be best if humans weren't around. Most humans rightly oppose this view and evolution will tend to support an increase in people with that view in the long run. A religion that has "don't have children" as a belief won't last long.
[+] [-] irunbackwards|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] viach|7 years ago|reply
The tragedy of the commons: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons
Technically, the planet is doomed. Practically and pragmatically, everyone who is living here today, has a good chance to enjoy his days, no matter what will happen next.
I'm not advocating the way we destroy our planet, just trying to accept facts without emotional barrier. Could be wrong here.
[+] [-] spoiledtechie|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] drugme|7 years ago|reply
But have you seen the latest VR tech? You can just put on a headset and swear your were back at that state park with mom and dad, in front of that old eucalyptus positively twitching with Monarchs.
[+] [-] ataturk|7 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] foolfoolz|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] blitmap|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bmurphy1976|7 years ago|reply
I remember childhood evenings filled with them, they were everywhere, our grass was constantly crawling with them during the day. Now, I rarely ever see any during the day and at night I can count all the flashes.
It's not all my imagination. My cousin lives next to a farm. They have a couple acres they turned into a natural prairie. You can see the difference, the prairie lights up with activity at night, the farm is dead. A flash here or there is all you can see. Absolute stark contrast to the farm fields and well manicured laws of their neighbors.
EDIT: I found a link: https://www.firefly.org/why-are-fireflies-disappearing.html
[+] [-] geerlingguy|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] christophilus|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rconti|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bloomingfractal|7 years ago|reply
- Carbon tax.
- Carbon tariffs.
- Expropriation of all oil fields, the oil has to stay in the ground.
- Criminal prosecution of executives and shareholders of Oil companies much like what should have happened to the Tobacco industry.
- Job program (right to employment) to re-train the workforce in green technologies, specially in areas that will be affected by the aforementioned measures.
[+] [-] jlarocco|7 years ago|reply
The real problem is that billions of people want to drive and buy products that require burning oil to produce. Oil companies are just giving people what they want.
Shutting down oil companies before dealing with the massive demand is a recipe for failure.
[+] [-] hodder|7 years ago|reply
It is up to the government to set the rules and allow the market to play within them. Expropriation of oilfields would imply the government pick winners and losers and would be a devastating blow to property rights. If you advocate change, you should focus on advocating (fair) change in the regulatory framework.
Why not simply let the market decide which carbon emissions are of the most marginal value to society. You do this through cap and trade or carbon taxes, not from picking winners and losers.
[+] [-] trgn|7 years ago|reply
Very much disagree. You can both take individual action and push for systemic change, for two reasons.
Individual action can make a meaningful difference, maybe not in curbing climate change, but at least in supporting biodiversity in your little corner of the world, if ever so small. In the case of the monarchs, you can help by preserving their habitat by planting milkweed. There's a lot of examples of other small scale conservation efforts that make a real difference.
If you have some time to spare, Jonathan Franzen wrote an article about your defeatist attitude https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/04/06/carbon-capture, contrasting it to the meaningful work that can be done, and should be done by people of all means. It's well written, if not his message, you may enjoy his prose.
Second, taking individual action, however small, is the right thing to do. Eventually, somebody needs to be the first to step up. Some people already do, by making choices that reduce their carbon footprint, lowering their daily driving needs, travelling less by airplane, living smaller, whatever it may be.. Be that first person. When you lead by example, advocating for systemic change might actually work, as more and more people may follow in your footsteps.
[+] [-] mac01021|7 years ago|reply
This bill https://energyinnovationact.org/ (also [1]) is in the US Congress right now. It includes a carbon fee-and-dividend (both a tax and tariffs, the proceeds of which are distributed among all residents of the nation).
Please call your representative and tell them supporting this policy is the most important thing they'll ever do. Also get everyone you know to do the same.
Second:
Criminal prosecution of executives and shareholders of Oil companies,
- Will never be politically tractable
- Is equivalent to prosecution of someone for loading a gun, rather than the person who pulled the trigger
- Does divesting from a company even hurt that company? I mean if the company is not trying to raise cash by selling shares? If they aren't trying to sell stock, why do they care about the share price?
[1] https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/house-bill/7173
[+] [-] unknown|7 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] crazynick4|7 years ago|reply
And rightly so. The reason it's unfair is because the general population shouldn't be the ones to pay for the disaster that is our environment. They bought the cars because they needed them to survive in this economy. The people who should be punished are the big players that pushed the economy in this direction in the first place. They should be the ones to carry this load for everyone, and nobody else.
[+] [-] sopooneo|7 years ago|reply
I once read that the way to get people to donate to the red cross is first ask them if they would like to wear a free red cross ribbon. Then a week later ask them if they would like to donate. I suspect environmentalism could work the same way.
[+] [-] zackmorris|7 years ago|reply
As a kid here in Idaho, I remember seeing lots of Monarch butterflies and the others that imitate them. Today I see only moths and smaller white butterflies (we still have some large wood moths in the forests thankfully).
I think the problem is that young people today think that this is how things are supposed to be. They aren't old enough to remember pre-Reagan, or the fellowships, mens/womens groups and even religious volunteer groups of my grandparents' generation - which remembered the dangers of the Great Depression when there was no social safety net, and fascism in WWII.
Just for a poll, does anyone here believe that the free market can provide solutions to the externalities listed in this thread? Please include your age and why.
[+] [-] travisoneill1|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] viburnum|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] crushcrashcrush|7 years ago|reply
Used to see giant eucalyptus positively twitching alive with Monarchs.
Haven't seen a single one this year since I've been visiting my mother who still lives in the neighborhood.
[+] [-] janvdberg|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] InclinedPlane|7 years ago|reply
We are basically just children refusing to accept even the most basic levels of responsibility and stewardship for the world we live in.
[+] [-] babyslothzoo|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] hi41|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] cwkoss|7 years ago|reply
I think you may find it more effective to create some some mulched areas for growing wildflowers and perennials like milkweed.
Mowed lawns are silly and ecologically destructive for several reasons, but I think re:insects its more about habitat loss than any properties of the lawn itself.
[+] [-] calebm|7 years ago|reply
Of course, it's more annoying keeping your yard looking immaculate without those chemicals - you have to pull weeds more, but it's not really that big of a deal.
The "easy" path often has its downsides.
[+] [-] chmaynard|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] scoopdewoop|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] cronix|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] plussed_reader|7 years ago|reply
Or how about the bacteria that is able to break down plastic? We (still)have to worry about the various fungus that developed and transitioned the world out of the carboniferous period.
[+] [-] kemiller|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] herf|7 years ago|reply
https://relay.nationalgeographic.com/proxy/distribution/publ...
[+] [-] ourmandave|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] notjustanymike|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bryan11|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] esemor|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] artursapek|7 years ago|reply
https://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/adiku0/monarch_butter...
[+] [-] drugme|7 years ago|reply