There's a lot of click bait going on in here. A coup in Venezuela wouldn't disrupt a democratic order because there is no democratic order in Venezuela.
The article assumes that Maduro is a legitimate President. That is simply not true, there is solid evidence of plenty of fraud on the last election, the rule of the law is long gone in there, the justice courts are puppets of the regime, the legislative is silenced by force.
What is at stake here is just whether the military keep supporting the caudillo Maduro or not. Democracy is out of this game already.
The opposition won the elections, 112 to 55 MP, which, AFAIK, are also electors.
There was a supposed fraud on a few of them, which, on the other hand, was poorly substantiated, and very likely fake on its own.
Sin embargo, apenas una semana después de las declaraciones anteriores, el TSJ difundió oficialmente que había aceptado 7 denuncias de impugnaciones que afectaban a un total de 8 diputados electos para representar a los estados Amazonas, Aragua y Yaracuy,,111 de las cuales 6 fueron posteriormente declaradas improcedentes112 y la séptima aceptada como procedente, consecuentemente siendo declarado por el TSJ que se ordenaba la "suspensión" de los actos de totalización de votos y proclamación de resultados de la elección parlamentaria en todos los circuitos del estado Amazonas,113 afectando a tres diputados electos por la MUD (uno de ellos de la representación indígena por la región sur) y un diputado del PSUV elegido por votación lista.114
Supreme court, nominated by Maduro, then prevents MP from taking oath, which, in effect, makes the assembly non-functional. Maduro then orders the supreme court to install him as president, one more time.
If there was a coup, it was a judicial one, by Maduro, in 2015.
American citizens rely on the government and the press to determine if the election in a foreign country were legitimate. They do not speak the language in the country and do not have cultural ties to this country.
Do you think that the average American can accurately asses who is the proper president of Venezuela using only the word of the government and the press?
We know the current administration is packed with ideologues; many of whom are veterans of the Latin American "Dirty Wars" of the 1980s. I don't think we can trust the government on this one.
The "click bait" article, which is actually well cited, makes the case that the press is almost always in favor of regime-change in Latin America.
So I will ask again, do you think that US Americans are knowledgeable enough about Latin America to know what is best for Latin America?
> there is solid evidence of plenty of fraud on the last election
In fact, there isn't. If there is, please provide supporting evidence. Since we're on the subject of the New York Times, here[1] is the closest example I can find, which resorts to vague, unsubstantiated insinuations that voters were "pressured" despite historically low turnout.
As you indicate, the military supports Maduro. There is no reason to believe this will change. The putative interim 'leader' Juan Guaidó was relatively unknown until this coup attempt, has no constitutional mandate to lead, and has no traction with the Venezuelan state. He received an astounding zero percent of the vote in the last election.
Efforts by the US's famously free press to portray otherwise have sunk to desperately lower stabs at 'clickbait' than the linked article. A few hours ago, NPR published the sensationalist headline "High-Ranking General Rejects Maduro, Who Proposes Earlier Parliamentary Elections"[2]. Eight paragraphs later, we get this hilariously sunken lede: "Although hundreds of generals serve in the Venezuelan military, the announcement represents a victory for Guaidó, NPR's Philip Reeves reports."
None of this is to defend to current leadership of Venezuela - it is disastrous. Neither would I defend the leadership of Saudi Arabia, which doesn't even _pretend_ to have "democratic order." But these are not problems to be decided by the US, the media class, or the "international community." Don't take it from me - ask an Iraqi.
By that logic, would it also have been okay for China to meddle in internal US politics after The DNC literally rigged the primaries against Bernie Sanders, in favor of HRC?
Summary : America has done a lot of terrible things in South America.(agreed)
They tried to depose a lot of legitimate leaders. (agreed)
A couple of times the nytimes argued it was the right thing to do when it probably wasn't. (I'll take their word for it.)
But none of the article argues that Maduro is a legitimate leader. And I don't know if I buy the argument that because we tried to depose a lot of legitimate leaders in the past with illegitimate ones we should now support an illegitimate leader instead of the legitimate one.
Posted here mainly in light of the NYTimes article "Want to Stop Fake News? Pay for the Real Thing" that was recently posted here on HN. [1]
Also, let's not forget the NYTimes cheered the invasion of Iraq in 2003, and journalists who merely questioned the Iraq War lost their job at the NYTimes, the Dixie Chicks got blacklisted, etc.
I don't think the nytimes is trying to back the governments opinion. One the author is cherry picking times when the nytimes supported the government. But I'm sure someone else could find plenty of times when they didn't.
Secondly when they made the wrong call, I bet at least part of the reason was 2002 was a less connected time, and there was more trust in government. So if a bunch of government offficials tell the journalist Chavez is a terrible regime. And you happen to know a handful of anti Chavez individuals in Venezuela the journalist could easily make the wrong call.
The government can't give them a choice if they want their operations to be successful.
Research "the Fourth Estate".
When it comes to military operations, either covert or overt, the media coverage actually has to be considered as part of the operation. For this reason intelligence has to have influence with major media and draw hard lines with respect to certain required propaganda.
People are going to dismiss that as a conspiracy theory especially with regard to the US, but before you do think about it.
Have you ever read about a war where the soldiers were describing their motivation and they talked about strategic objectives? Do soldiers go to war to chanting about "20% More Oil Reserve Control Hoorah!"? No. Because wars involve risking your life and killing others. Because of that, military personnel need moral causes to fight for. If they turn on the news and they start saying that three oil executives are predicting an immediate five percent rise in oil prices if the Venezualan nationalization continues into 2019, is that really going to motivate them to shoot people? No. They need a bad guy. They need to know they are fighting against a bad system and for freedom. It needs to be cut and dry.
Newspapers shouldnt think if a particular opinion provides "a gain" or not, even if most of the times they act following that principle.
Other than that, I dont see a specific support for coups on some of the extracts mentioned in the Article (Argentina, Chile, Brazil).
From Chile: Allende was declared unconstitutional by the congress. The CIA came into play because the KGB and the Cubans were working here. There was inflation of more than 400%, the communists expropriated and introduced weapons, the country was in ruins and near a civil war.
On Venezuela: The Cubans have there: armed force, agents and intelligence. Besides that it is a Narco State. The economy = people are literally dying of hunger.
Media bias. Desde Chile: Allende fue declarado inconstitucional por el congreso. La CIA entró en juego porque aquí estaba trabajando la KGB y los Cubanos. Había inflación sobre el 400%, los comunistas expropiaron e introdujeron armas, el país estaba en ruinas y al borde de una guerra civil.
Sobre Venezuela: Los Cubanos tienen ahí fuerza armada, agentes e inteligencia. Además de que es un Narco Estado. La economía = las personas literalmente se están muriendo de hambre.
Establishment media organizations in the Anglo world are so reluctant to criticize of the Government line on anything related to foreign policy. It seems like it would be so easy and risk-free in the current era especially.
They're either ignorant of the history of US interference in Latin America, or they're ideologues acting in bad faith. I imaging there is also a strong pressure to go-along to get-along that weeds out anyone who would properly push back.
I recommend The Gray Zone Project for a counters-establishment perspective. Like all journalism, you need to know how to read it, but it really does cover foreign policy in a way that NYT cannot.
https://grayzoneproject.com/
If you prefer something more tabloid-y I recommend The Canary. They even have US and UK editions.
https://www.thecanary.co/us/
> Establishment media organizations in the Anglo world are so reluctant to criticize of the Government line on anything related to foreign policy.
How did you miss the fact that virtually every US newspaper has criticized the current president's foreign policy on deep breath Syria, Russia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Russia, Iran, North Korea, Russia, Canada, South Korea, Russia, most of our allies, etc?
Even before our current president plumbed unheard of depths in foreign policy idiocies, I've long seen criticism of foreign policy. The drone assassination program was a big one. The virtues of the surges in Iraq and Afghanistan was certainly a spirited debate.
[+] [-] diego_moita|7 years ago|reply
The article assumes that Maduro is a legitimate President. That is simply not true, there is solid evidence of plenty of fraud on the last election, the rule of the law is long gone in there, the justice courts are puppets of the regime, the legislative is silenced by force.
What is at stake here is just whether the military keep supporting the caudillo Maduro or not. Democracy is out of this game already.
[+] [-] bassman9000|7 years ago|reply
https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elecciones_parlamentarias_de_V...
The opposition won the elections, 112 to 55 MP, which, AFAIK, are also electors. There was a supposed fraud on a few of them, which, on the other hand, was poorly substantiated, and very likely fake on its own.
Sin embargo, apenas una semana después de las declaraciones anteriores, el TSJ difundió oficialmente que había aceptado 7 denuncias de impugnaciones que afectaban a un total de 8 diputados electos para representar a los estados Amazonas, Aragua y Yaracuy,,111 de las cuales 6 fueron posteriormente declaradas improcedentes112 y la séptima aceptada como procedente, consecuentemente siendo declarado por el TSJ que se ordenaba la "suspensión" de los actos de totalización de votos y proclamación de resultados de la elección parlamentaria en todos los circuitos del estado Amazonas,113 afectando a tres diputados electos por la MUD (uno de ellos de la representación indígena por la región sur) y un diputado del PSUV elegido por votación lista.114
Supreme court, nominated by Maduro, then prevents MP from taking oath, which, in effect, makes the assembly non-functional. Maduro then orders the supreme court to install him as president, one more time.
If there was a coup, it was a judicial one, by Maduro, in 2015.
[+] [-] dj_gitmo|7 years ago|reply
Do you think that the average American can accurately asses who is the proper president of Venezuela using only the word of the government and the press?
We know the current administration is packed with ideologues; many of whom are veterans of the Latin American "Dirty Wars" of the 1980s. I don't think we can trust the government on this one.
The "click bait" article, which is actually well cited, makes the case that the press is almost always in favor of regime-change in Latin America.
So I will ask again, do you think that US Americans are knowledgeable enough about Latin America to know what is best for Latin America?
[+] [-] cribbles|7 years ago|reply
In fact, there isn't. If there is, please provide supporting evidence. Since we're on the subject of the New York Times, here[1] is the closest example I can find, which resorts to vague, unsubstantiated insinuations that voters were "pressured" despite historically low turnout.
As you indicate, the military supports Maduro. There is no reason to believe this will change. The putative interim 'leader' Juan Guaidó was relatively unknown until this coup attempt, has no constitutional mandate to lead, and has no traction with the Venezuelan state. He received an astounding zero percent of the vote in the last election.
Efforts by the US's famously free press to portray otherwise have sunk to desperately lower stabs at 'clickbait' than the linked article. A few hours ago, NPR published the sensationalist headline "High-Ranking General Rejects Maduro, Who Proposes Earlier Parliamentary Elections"[2]. Eight paragraphs later, we get this hilariously sunken lede: "Although hundreds of generals serve in the Venezuelan military, the announcement represents a victory for Guaidó, NPR's Philip Reeves reports."
None of this is to defend to current leadership of Venezuela - it is disastrous. Neither would I defend the leadership of Saudi Arabia, which doesn't even _pretend_ to have "democratic order." But these are not problems to be decided by the US, the media class, or the "international community." Don't take it from me - ask an Iraqi.
[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/20/world/americas/venezuela-...
[2] https://www.npr.org/2019/02/02/690944320/high-ranking-genera...
[+] [-] jules-jules|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] trextrex|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] JamesBarney|7 years ago|reply
They tried to depose a lot of legitimate leaders. (agreed)
A couple of times the nytimes argued it was the right thing to do when it probably wasn't. (I'll take their word for it.)
But none of the article argues that Maduro is a legitimate leader. And I don't know if I buy the argument that because we tried to depose a lot of legitimate leaders in the past with illegitimate ones we should now support an illegitimate leader instead of the legitimate one.
[+] [-] dj_gitmo|7 years ago|reply
Let's run down a list of the recent US interventions.
Russian Election of 1996: The US helped rig Russia's election in 1996. Electing Yeltsin for a second term is what brought in Putin and basically killed Russian democracy. https://www.globalresearch.ca/us-meddling-in-1996-russian-el...
Iraq: 600,000 dead so far.
Libya: It was supposed to turn into a thriving democracy but instead it's now a thriving slave market. https://www.cnn.com/2017/11/14/africa/libya-migrant-auctions...
Yemen: Largest humanitarian crisis in the world.
The list goes on and on. Things don't get better when the US intervenes. Let Venezuela decide it's own fate.
[+] [-] jules-jules|7 years ago|reply
Also, let's not forget the NYTimes cheered the invasion of Iraq in 2003, and journalists who merely questioned the Iraq War lost their job at the NYTimes, the Dixie Chicks got blacklisted, etc.
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19050102
[+] [-] ilaksh|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] whatshisface|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] JamesBarney|7 years ago|reply
Secondly when they made the wrong call, I bet at least part of the reason was 2002 was a less connected time, and there was more trust in government. So if a bunch of government offficials tell the journalist Chavez is a terrible regime. And you happen to know a handful of anti Chavez individuals in Venezuela the journalist could easily make the wrong call.
[+] [-] ilaksh|7 years ago|reply
Research "the Fourth Estate".
When it comes to military operations, either covert or overt, the media coverage actually has to be considered as part of the operation. For this reason intelligence has to have influence with major media and draw hard lines with respect to certain required propaganda.
People are going to dismiss that as a conspiracy theory especially with regard to the US, but before you do think about it.
Have you ever read about a war where the soldiers were describing their motivation and they talked about strategic objectives? Do soldiers go to war to chanting about "20% More Oil Reserve Control Hoorah!"? No. Because wars involve risking your life and killing others. Because of that, military personnel need moral causes to fight for. If they turn on the news and they start saying that three oil executives are predicting an immediate five percent rise in oil prices if the Venezualan nationalization continues into 2019, is that really going to motivate them to shoot people? No. They need a bad guy. They need to know they are fighting against a bad system and for freedom. It needs to be cut and dry.
[+] [-] randiantech|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] phry|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] factorhack|7 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] factorhack|7 years ago|reply
From Chile: Allende was declared unconstitutional by the congress. The CIA came into play because the KGB and the Cubans were working here. There was inflation of more than 400%, the communists expropriated and introduced weapons, the country was in ruins and near a civil war.
On Venezuela: The Cubans have there: armed force, agents and intelligence. Besides that it is a Narco State. The economy = people are literally dying of hunger.
[+] [-] factorhack|7 years ago|reply
Sobre Venezuela: Los Cubanos tienen ahí fuerza armada, agentes e inteligencia. Además de que es un Narco Estado. La economía = las personas literalmente se están muriendo de hambre.
[+] [-] dj_gitmo|7 years ago|reply
They're either ignorant of the history of US interference in Latin America, or they're ideologues acting in bad faith. I imaging there is also a strong pressure to go-along to get-along that weeds out anyone who would properly push back.
I recommend The Gray Zone Project for a counters-establishment perspective. Like all journalism, you need to know how to read it, but it really does cover foreign policy in a way that NYT cannot. https://grayzoneproject.com/ If you prefer something more tabloid-y I recommend The Canary. They even have US and UK editions. https://www.thecanary.co/us/
[+] [-] jcranmer|7 years ago|reply
How did you miss the fact that virtually every US newspaper has criticized the current president's foreign policy on deep breath Syria, Russia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Russia, Iran, North Korea, Russia, Canada, South Korea, Russia, most of our allies, etc?
Even before our current president plumbed unheard of depths in foreign policy idiocies, I've long seen criticism of foreign policy. The drone assassination program was a big one. The virtues of the surges in Iraq and Afghanistan was certainly a spirited debate.