I can't wait for tipping culture to end - it's just a way for service workers to be abused in a multitude of ways.
I only wish more workers would realize that it will be better for them collectively to get upset at their employers for not paying them fairly instead of the last customer who stiffed them on the tip.
Tipping culture should die, and 7 states thus far have banned the mistreatment of servers via reducing their wage due to earned tips. Amazon knew this practice was against the spirit of the law in its home state, and it likely would result in penalties if Working Washington or similar chooses to take them to court over this fraudulent practice.
> I can't wait for tipping culture to end - it's just a way for service workers to be abused in a multitude of ways.
I agree that tips as a substitute for wages should end, and that expectations of non-zero baseline tips should end.
However, I feel that tips as incentives for good service should absolutely continue. (Either that, or real-time rating systems visible to the employer, but I'm not sure that outcome would be preferable.)
Now you have two Amazon's. There is absolutely no difference between them. Goods are ten percent pricier in second one, but employees are paid more (they appreciate tips anyway).
Which company would you buy from? Which company would you invest in?
Tipping serves a purpose. It's a clear, precise and immediate communication channel about customer satisfaction. If you get bad service, just don't leave a tip - it doesn't have any social friction of calling the manager or anything like that. You, as a customer, feel that you're in control.
In the food service industry, for example, your tips almost always reduce base pay until a federal, legal minimum different from the better known minimum wage.
I’m not saying that’s just. Companies abuse service workers, and use some legalistic convention to do so.
Would you go suing basically every restaurant for fraud though? Justice here really means legislating the wages and tips laws to be more generous to workers.
I love when stories like this come in and you see everyone defending the company because they redefined terms that obviously mean a certain thing. Part of the reason tech giants are so big is they do all these things that would be illegal for me and you, but they get a pass.
In the long run, without any wage theft, you should expect any increase in tips lead to a reduction in base pay since employees only really care about their total comp, not whether it comes from tips of salary.
So while this practice is scummy, it's basically just speeding up what would happen normally.
I think the problem here is that in some lines of work, it's generally understood that the worker only makes tips (waiters, bartenders -- any base pay is negligible), in other lines of work it's generally understood that the tip is a nice but non-required "extra" that nobody should be depending on (barista, Uber driver), and in yet further cases it's a "required" extra (taxi driver, hairdresser, massage therapist).
And while pre-Internet delivery was previously understood to be only tips (e.g. in NYC, the person delivering your Chinese food is paid solely by your tips, not by the restaurant, effectively just like a waiter)...
...we haven't societally established what the right expectation is for dot-com delivery people. Because it's such a new thing, most consumers probably assume they're paid a fair wage and tips are either a non-required bonus (like Uber) or a required bonus (like hairdressers). Yet the companies seem to be treating tips as the entire salary (like waiters, bartenders, and restaurant deliveries).
Of course there's zero logic to any of this, only custom. And the insane confusion around it is just another argument for getting rid of the damned practice of tipping in the first place, everywhere.
as a consumer I don’t think I should have to maintain the cognitive load of making sure people get fair pay. That’s between 2 parties, the worker and the service. So I tip nothing if it’s through an app. If everyone did the same it might actually work.
Can we take this opportunity to get rid of institutionalized tipping entirely? It is beyond me why this is even accepted, let alone expected behavior for companies to specifically ask for tips on behalf of workers. I traveled to several (developed) countries recently recently and was pleasantly surprised and relieved to not have to worry about tipping for each and every service.
Now think how non-Americans feel when they travel to America.
Tipping culture (alongside mass homelessness in some places) feels very awkward to me when I'm in America - I never know who I'm meant to tip, and a few times when I havn't offered one people have been really aggressive about it.
This is disgusting. Tips are meant for the driver and not for the company. I am truly surprised that so many HN readers have their fundamentals of terms so corrupted that they are choosing to argue about this.
Amazon should be upfront - clearly declare that the minimal wage is taken from your tips. Declare this right in the employment contract and call it a wage subsidy. The fact that they are hiding this and not responding to enquiries shows that they are operating in a malicious and dishonest manner. This is injustice to the driver and Amazon should be prosecuted.
I've always been skeptical of where my digital tips are going. Even in local restaurants if I have the cash, I'll write "cash" on the tip line for the credit card receipt and tip in cash.
I don't mind tipping as an appreciation of above average service. I do mind having to pretend to appreciate bad service because certain countries basically just can't be bothered to implement minimum wage, which is what this boils down to. I try not to be a jerk about it and just generally tip on the principle that I don't want to cheat people out of some income they probably need. But it's not exactly a great system.
My main problem with this is that all the hard work is typically done by people you don't interact with, which in a restaurant would be the people cleaning the place, cooking the food, doing the dishes, etc. Basically, people working double/triple jobs because of the before mentioned minimum wage issues. So, I tip and I hope some of that trickles down to those people as well. But I would not be surprised to learn that most of that money never ends up where it belongs.
In the US, basically you get your ass kissed in a blatantly indifferent and disingenuous way by eager waiters desperate to ensure you tip generously for the service of delivering food from the kitchen to your table. It makes the whole experience of being in a restaurant a lot less pleasant. There's also this pressure to basically leave ASAP so the waiter can start harassing the next customer. So they say, "is everything alright" but what they mean is "hurry up so I can maximize my tip/hour ratio". There's just something deeply unpleasant about that.
What's not to love? It makes you feel rich and generous for a moment: "Look at me as I'm sharing my riches to save this pleb waiter from certain starvation."
We can argue all day long about whether this 'culture' should exist or not, the fact is it does exist and there are many situations where the most ethical choice is offer some kind of tip (and cash is most certainly appreciated by those in the know). Yeah, it's archaic and overcomplicated and regressive, much like just about everything else involving human interaction.
If you don't like it, abolish the practice in businesses where you can influence such policies. Feel free to withhold tips if you want, in lots of cases the workers you interact will hardly notice because plenty of others do the same. Just know that if you ask a low-wage worker to put up with extra hassle for you and don't offer extra compensation in return, in many cases you will be viewed as clueless and/or selfish. That's just how it is, respond to the reality as you see fit.
[+] [-] beering|7 years ago|reply
I only wish more workers would realize that it will be better for them collectively to get upset at their employers for not paying them fairly instead of the last customer who stiffed them on the tip.
[+] [-] StudentStuff|7 years ago|reply
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tipped_wage_in_the_United_Stat...
[+] [-] JoshTriplett|7 years ago|reply
I agree that tips as a substitute for wages should end, and that expectations of non-zero baseline tips should end.
However, I feel that tips as incentives for good service should absolutely continue. (Either that, or real-time rating systems visible to the employer, but I'm not sure that outcome would be preferable.)
[+] [-] softawre|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] hamilyon2|7 years ago|reply
Now you have two Amazon's. There is absolutely no difference between them. Goods are ten percent pricier in second one, but employees are paid more (they appreciate tips anyway).
Which company would you buy from? Which company would you invest in?
[+] [-] golergka|7 years ago|reply
Why would you want to get rid of that?
[+] [-] deogeo|7 years ago|reply
And no, re-defining 'tip' to mean whatever Amazon wants it to mean somewhere in the Terms of Service fine print does not absolve them.
[+] [-] doctorpangloss|7 years ago|reply
I’m not saying that’s just. Companies abuse service workers, and use some legalistic convention to do so.
Would you go suing basically every restaurant for fraud though? Justice here really means legislating the wages and tips laws to be more generous to workers.
[+] [-] thatoneuser|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Eridrus|7 years ago|reply
So while this practice is scummy, it's basically just speeding up what would happen normally.
[+] [-] crazygringo|7 years ago|reply
And while pre-Internet delivery was previously understood to be only tips (e.g. in NYC, the person delivering your Chinese food is paid solely by your tips, not by the restaurant, effectively just like a waiter)...
...we haven't societally established what the right expectation is for dot-com delivery people. Because it's such a new thing, most consumers probably assume they're paid a fair wage and tips are either a non-required bonus (like Uber) or a required bonus (like hairdressers). Yet the companies seem to be treating tips as the entire salary (like waiters, bartenders, and restaurant deliveries).
Of course there's zero logic to any of this, only custom. And the insane confusion around it is just another argument for getting rid of the damned practice of tipping in the first place, everywhere.
[+] [-] conductr|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] eeeeeeeeeeeee|7 years ago|reply
Call it “wage subsidy” and see how many people leave anything.
[+] [-] raz32dust|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] adwww|7 years ago|reply
Tipping culture (alongside mass homelessness in some places) feels very awkward to me when I'm in America - I never know who I'm meant to tip, and a few times when I havn't offered one people have been really aggressive about it.
[+] [-] kevin_thibedeau|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] lenkite|7 years ago|reply
Amazon should be upfront - clearly declare that the minimal wage is taken from your tips. Declare this right in the employment contract and call it a wage subsidy. The fact that they are hiding this and not responding to enquiries shows that they are operating in a malicious and dishonest manner. This is injustice to the driver and Amazon should be prosecuted.
[+] [-] spiznnx|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] awakeasleep|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mhb|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jillesvangurp|7 years ago|reply
My main problem with this is that all the hard work is typically done by people you don't interact with, which in a restaurant would be the people cleaning the place, cooking the food, doing the dishes, etc. Basically, people working double/triple jobs because of the before mentioned minimum wage issues. So, I tip and I hope some of that trickles down to those people as well. But I would not be surprised to learn that most of that money never ends up where it belongs.
In the US, basically you get your ass kissed in a blatantly indifferent and disingenuous way by eager waiters desperate to ensure you tip generously for the service of delivering food from the kitchen to your table. It makes the whole experience of being in a restaurant a lot less pleasant. There's also this pressure to basically leave ASAP so the waiter can start harassing the next customer. So they say, "is everything alright" but what they mean is "hurry up so I can maximize my tip/hour ratio". There's just something deeply unpleasant about that.
[+] [-] elliekelly|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ceejayoz|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] d6e|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] m000|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] entity345|7 years ago|reply
Is this an American thing? (part of this 'strange' American tipping culture)
[+] [-] darkpuma|7 years ago|reply
Definitely not, I've never heard of it. The closest I've ever heard of this is writing a christmas card for your mailman once a year.
[+] [-] purplezooey|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] darkpuma|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] slfnflctd|7 years ago|reply
We can argue all day long about whether this 'culture' should exist or not, the fact is it does exist and there are many situations where the most ethical choice is offer some kind of tip (and cash is most certainly appreciated by those in the know). Yeah, it's archaic and overcomplicated and regressive, much like just about everything else involving human interaction.
If you don't like it, abolish the practice in businesses where you can influence such policies. Feel free to withhold tips if you want, in lots of cases the workers you interact will hardly notice because plenty of others do the same. Just know that if you ask a low-wage worker to put up with extra hassle for you and don't offer extra compensation in return, in many cases you will be viewed as clueless and/or selfish. That's just how it is, respond to the reality as you see fit.
[+] [-] AndyMcConachie|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] m0zg|7 years ago|reply