This article seems to be written using results from a J.D. Power report. J.D. Power's methodology is commonly known to be extremely flawed in that they weigh all "issues" equally. So an engine failure is the same severity as Bluetooth not connecting.
Furthermore, tiebreakers are broken in pretty nonsense ways, and many suspect it's by whoever pays the most. For example, they crowned Buick the most dependable brand, but by their own ratings, both Lexus and Porsche scored higher.
If you rank by only mechanical dependability by their own numbers, the ranking is as follows (alphabetical w/in tiers):
So the old adage still holds true for mechanical reliability, Japanese > German/European > American/British.
Also, the luxury brand of an automaker falls pretty damn close to where the non-luxury brand lands: Lexus/Toyota, Buick/Chevy, Hyundai/Kia, Infiniti/Nissan, Audi/Volkswagen, Cadillac/GMC, Fiat/Dodge/Ram, Chrysler/Jeep. Which would make sense since they share mechanical parts, but not infotainment/luxury features. When infotainment/luxury features are factored into the dependability score, it leads to the conclusion the article is trying to draw.
But, you gotta understand that's for the first 3 years only and the consumer reports is only for the first 10 years.
Once you get beyond 10 years, any mechanic will tell you the European cars are absolute garbage. Especially BMW, Audi and Mercedes will self destruct at some point after 10 years. And those parts cost a heck of a lot more than non-luxury brands. Sometimes, they won't even sell you a part by its own piece so you have to buy the whole assembly for 1000$ even if all you need is a tiny part that's supposed to cost no more than 50$.
Given that a Lexus is a fancy Toyota, this doesn't surprise.
I had it explained to me once by a MOT tester (a safety and emissions test in the UK that cars more than four years old must undergo annually) while my old Corolla was on the ramp that Toyota's process basically involves hardening parts from the last model for the most popular defects, with as little re-design work of the internal components between generations as possible. I have no idea if the chap knew what he was talking about or not but it would certainly seem to stand up to my own anecdotal scrutiny - the car is 18 years old and still drives like new (it stayed in the extended family), which is more than can be said for the Renault that replaced it >:-(
Reliability variation between models > reliability variation between brands.
Generally speaking cheap disposable appliance cars are cheap and disposable. OEMs put much more effort into their flagship products and the products that define their brand image.
Also just a friendly reminder that owner demographics have a large effect on reliability over the kind of 5+yr timeline many commenters here seem to be talking in. The wealthier the owner the better the vehicle is treated (at a statistical level, we all know one or two rich guys who never change their oil). Rich people years vs poor people years is like highway miles vs city miles.
As electric vehicles mature and increase their share of the consumer market, it will be interesting to see how these sorts of reliability measurements change to maintain relevance. Already today, a luxury EV is probably more mechanically reliable than a mass market ICE car.
Electric batteries and drivetrains have their differences in reliability for sure (IIUC, the 1st generation Nissan Leaf lacked a battery temp management system). However the difference between the reliability of EVs isn't likely to be that big since EVs are much simpler machines.
A lot of the complexity that provides the luxury ICE driving experience (smooth, quiet drivetrain, strong acceleration) comes for "free" in an EV, even in mass market models. With that complexity gone, there's much less to differentiate cars from a reliability perspective.
But I think that says more about the relative immaturity of Tesla's manufacturing than it does about EVs generally.
It will be interesting to see how Volkswagen's modular MEB electric car platform goes in the long term. The MEB platform designed to be used across multiple VW brands (VW, Audi, SEAT, and Skoda) and Volkswagen is interested in licensing it to other manufacturers so it will be widely used.
There is no inherent reason why a more-expensive car should
be better or worse in terms of reliability than a
less-expensive car, so my guess is they’ll track each other
fairly closely going forward.
If the metric is per car faults, then surely more features mean more opportunities for defects, given an equal attention to quality across all features?
I'd say that there are reasons that both higher and lower price vehicles should have fewer defects, but it's not clear which reasons would dominate. (And probably different factors dominate in different periods of car production).
High cost: more attention to detail, higher quality parts, more care with fit and finish, should yield fewer defects.
Low cost: simpler vehicle systems, fewer moving parts, fewer unproven features, mass production with consistent processes, should yield fewer defects.
The shift is a combination of mass-market cars catching up in overall quality and less new technology in these vehicles that can increase the chance of something going wrong
Part of it seems to be that there aren't more features in luxury cars. If you look at the graph, we're seeing mass market cars getting fewer problems and luxury cars remaining relatively flat.
In the last 5-8 years there has been a DRAMATIC change in the way vehicles are tested and released. Everyone has become much more focused on electronic features - while at the same time almost everyone is completely outsourcing electronics design and firmware. Cars hit the lots with 10 new flashes waiting. When I started, it was a BIG DEAL if you had a lot held up somewhere in Detroit because of a pending flash.
I've worked with two of the big three, and right now, neither own their traction control, radio, trans, body, ignition, steering, etc controllers. Basically anything. Even engines are being outsourced. I don't just mean the module, but the code on it. One of the mfgs, their engineers can't even SEE radio code or anything much more than general documents. They used to have compiler access to most things, now it's extremely rare.
The mfgs wanted to outsource the development, and now when they need an adjustment to traction control it's a $50, 100, 250, 500,000 charge, BUT, they've also moved the responsibility to the mfgs like Bosch, ConTevis, etc.
Short version is everyone is playing the game to get hot new electronics in cars, to make them seem as advanced as phones - but the work is not being put in besides surface level customer view. I've found obvious glitches in zero mile vehicles this year, but none I can think of from 2000-2013
I would not purchase a 2019 anything right now. I'd allow for two-three years worth of flashes before considering a new car. And that doesn't mean you're "safe" with your old car. You think your 2001 Subaru Outback is going strong? Well, surprise, you're likely to fall victim to a different issue.
As to the article, yes, luxury cars are worse. Most people that don't realize you can't leave your touring Ferarri in the garage not hooked up to a trickle charger, or also picking on Ferarri that the LaFerarri when runs battery dead may require to be loaded on a truck and shipped to a dealer before it'll charge again, or that the new Range Rovers will attempt to void your battery and electronics warranty if they find a radar/laser detector hooked up because THAT is how finicky the electronics system is.
It's funny to me the amount of work that your average Toyota or Chevy vehicle gets relative to lux models that skirt by with less engineering and more features.
As to Cadillac and Lexus, those are just GM and Toyota, all the same things plus some. So fundamentally they're the same, but yes, add features add problem areas.
With the exception of safety features (think blind spot monitoring, backup cameras, lane keep assist, parking sensors) and mobile connectivity features like bluetooth, frankly I'm getting tired of all the crap they're throwing into vehicles these days for many of the reasons you mention.
It seems every manufacturer or parent brand has their own infotainment system, NAV, etc. and you pay the price for it when you buy the car. And god forbid you want the upgraded safety features or leather seats, but don't want any of the other bells and whistles, because you can't have it without tacking on $4000 for the "technology" package.
My ideal car these days is one with the safety bells and whistles, limited luxury features (automatic and heated/cooled seats, climate control), but without any complicated infotainment beyond bluetooth/Android auto/Apple Car Play connectivity. There's no reason to have redundant technology built into cars by companies that aren't as good at it when we have perfectly capable, and generally more up-to-date mobile devices with us at all times.
Is anyone making reasonably well-appointed vehicles without throwing everything and the kitchen sink in there?
I completely despise the new consumer facing electronics in cars. Not because I find anything inherently wrong with electronics, but because I find the software/electronics in every car, in literally every car made today, cheap or expensive, to be an epic disaster both from an industrial design, and security standpoint.
Sadly, I think "normal" cars will go extinct the way non-smartphones and non-smart TVs went extinct. It's impossible to buy a TV these days that is not infected with Internet of Shit.
Where's the 70 Series Toyota Land Cruiser of today? The 70 series is still being made, it's just not sold in developed countries. Why can't they just make it emission compliant and sell that car in the EU and US? That's the car I want!
> The mfgs wanted to outsource the development, and now when they need an adjustment to traction control it's a $50, 100, 250, 500,000 charge, BUT, they've also moved the responsibility to the mfgs like Bosch, ConTevis, etc.
I can see where this would complicate and slow delivery of bugfixes, but if you ask me who I'd rather have mucking around with my ABS firmware, a GM engineer or a Bosch engineer, that's an easy answer.
But that's been that way for some time now. My 2002 (E46) BMW 3-series has mostly Bosch parts inside. The transmission is made by... GM. The only thing that's BMW is the engine and the body. All the sensors on the engine are Bosch. It's a fairly smart way of developing a car in my opinion: concentrate on what you're good at. But to add to your point: you can also tell from the problems what BMW had outsourced -- it's often the accessories that don't age well. The engine in the E46 BMWs are fairly reliable. I had to open the valve cover once after 10+ years of driving and everything looks pristine inside. The biggest defect I had to deal with was the VANOS valves, which only required some bearing replacement, and gasket replacements.
My 2013 (F30) BMW 3-series is similar in its parts sourcing. The turbo is made by Mitsubishi and the transmission is made by ZF (which is pretty much industry standard). Other than the engine, body, and maybe the steering components, everything else is again outsourced. So far it's been pretty damn reliable though.
That's some interesting insight... I wonder where it'll all end up... it's kind of difficult for markets to function well with things so utterly opaque to the average consumer. I wonder if it'll end up regulated, or if the fear of lawsuits or something else will knock people in line.
That said, the best answer is clearly to ride bikes more! A lot better for the environment, your wallet, and your own health!
You almost touched on something car manufacturers aren't doing, and that's providing software updates.
My Subaru's infotainment system has strange intermittent bugs with the Bluetooth system. I get annoyed that even if the developer fixes it, I'll never see an update without buying a new car.
It's one of the reasons I'm such a Tesla fanboy. They do software updates. What's really great too is that they're done over the air. You don't need to bring it to a dealer and pay a ridiculous fee for it.
It'd be really nice if the other manufacturers could get on that.
Has there been a trend to bring controls back in house? I used to work in another mature industry, HVAC. It also went through a period of outsourcing all electronics/software, and then they realized that all the IP/secret sauce going forward will be in the controls and related software.
My former employer had plenty of unpleasant experiences outsourcing firmware, which contributed to bringing it all back in house.
I've always shied away from luxury brands because repairs are so expensive. Little things like a switch, or a seat lever, or even trying to replace the middle console lid because your kid scratched it up, is always more expensive when its a luxury brand. Just because it comes from BMW doesn't mean it should automatically be more expensive.
I bought a plain, no turbo Volvo 940 for $1000 ten years ago. It's 25 years old now, and still is very reliable. Newer Volvos seem a lot more complex, and I can't help thinking that there's a lot more electronics and mechanisms that can break than in the old construction. Edit: ugh, I just realised I have become a grumpy old man.
Volvo is Chinese nowadays, the 940 you've bought is Swedish and no cost was spared in making it that reliable. That's also why Volvo is Chinese nowadays.
I think one thing to remember that people who buy a Toyota drive it like it's... a Toyota. Cars that are driven hard will break down faster than cars that aren't, and I'm guessing the average BMW is pushed harder than the average Toyota. My wife can put a hole in a pair of nice running shoes faster than I can even wear tread off of a junky pair. Use matters, not all miles are equal.
The people that buy luxury cars don't care. It'll be under warranty during this time and the dealer will offer a free loaner car while it is being repaired. Most of these cars are leased and the ones that aren't will likely be sold around the 3 year mark. There isn't much incentive for the manufacturers to make them reliable unlike with mass market cars.
This is true. But there is an important corollary: never buy a used luxury car that's in it's third phase of life (>120k mikes). Both the amount and the cost of repairs are significantly higher. But it's a sucker's deal where people can get a nice car for a while, but which will end up costing them way more than, say, a moderately used Toyota.
"Luxury Brands" is a vague concept.
Maserati, MB S Class, Cadillac Escalade, BMW 7 Series are all luxuru vehicles but aren't supposed to hold up well. They are expensive luxury toys, and cant be used as work horses like Lexuses or Acuras are.
I don’t think the survey takes into account the differing expectations of the buyers of the different brands. Someone buying a Mercedes has different expectations than someone buying a Corola and this would strongly influence issue numbers.
Definitely true. I knew a guy who bought a BMW 5-series and was annoyed at a whistling sound that it made. When you pay $50k+ for a vehicle, you expect that it will perform at exacting standards.
Also, the fact that it's under warranty and the BMW dealership will give you a loaner makes you more likely to take it in for extended troubleshooting/repair.
This is always true, the mass produced thing is going to have manufacturing lines that are tuned. And Toyota or Chevy can't afford to have a recall on something they made 100k of . Bespoke luxury vehicles are nearly hand made, with all the errors that hand building entails.
Wear a timex, drive a toyota, compute with a thinkpad, listen to a yamaha and process with a cuisanart.
Most people I know that have German usually have electronic/electrical issues. The actual drivetrains are good but the electrical systems have a lot of issues.
Assessing "reliability" between brands is very hard (and a lost cause IMO) because there's tons of things that have a large effect but are hard to measure and quantify.
Reliability variation between models > reliability variation between brands. Generally speaking cheap disposable appliance cars are cheap and disposable. OEMs put much more effort into their flagship products and the products that define their brand image.
Owner demographics have a large effect on reliability over the kind of 5+yr timeline many commenters here seem to be talking in. The wealthier the owner the better the vehicle is treated (at a statistical level, we all know one or two rich guys who never change their oil). Rich people years vs poor people years is like highway miles vs city miles. As vehicles get older they get cheaper they move down the economic ladder which tends to complicate things a little. In states with road salt wealthier people are much more likely to keep their vehicles in garages or wash them regularly.
When it comes to vehicles >8yo (or whatever the oldest banks will write a loan for at present) you see on the road is not necessarily what's reliable or what's popular. The dealership auction system tends to siphon off vehicles over a certain age and/or under a certain value to the South American (from North America) and African/Middle Eastern (from Europe) markets. This means that vehicles owned by the demographics that tend to trade in regularly (wealthier on average) will not stick around as well as the vehicles owned by people who don't or who tend to buy/sell private party (less wealthy on average). So the old vehicle you see driving around are not necessarily a 1:1 representation of what was or wasn't reliable or what was or wasn't popular back in the year they were sold. Different demographics keep vehicles for different amounts of time. People tend to get new vehicles at life milestones younger people are moving up in the world commuting, starting families and this prompts them to change vehicle more often. Grandpa bought a 'Vic in '94 and has been driving it since.
Replacement cost greatly effects a how long a vehicle is kept in service. Replacing a compact SUV is cheap compared to a 1-ton truck so at any point in time the owner of the big truck is much more likely to fix any problem that comes up rather than go looking for a replacement. Look at the 90s Fords you still see around. Ford sold a TON of Explorers yet 1st and 2nd gen Explorers are a rarity on the roads compared to F-series.
Also, just because you never see a particular make/model where you live doesn't mean they don't exist in large numbers elsewhere.
There's probably a few things I'm forgetting but people would do well to keep in mind all the things that aren't being controlled for when they read about vehicle "reliability".
[+] [-] kenhwang|7 years ago|reply
Furthermore, tiebreakers are broken in pretty nonsense ways, and many suspect it's by whoever pays the most. For example, they crowned Buick the most dependable brand, but by their own ratings, both Lexus and Porsche scored higher.
If you rank by only mechanical dependability by their own numbers, the ranking is as follows (alphabetical w/in tiers):
10: Lexus, Toyota
9: BMW, Buick, Chevrolet, Hyundai, Infiniti, Kia, Lincoln, Mazda, Mercedes, Nissan, Porsche
8: Audi, Ford, Honda, Jaguar, Mini, Subaru, Volkswagen, Volvo
7: Acura, Cadillac, Dodge, Fiat, GMC, Mitsubishi, Ram
5: Chrysler, Jeep, Land Rover.
So the old adage still holds true for mechanical reliability, Japanese > German/European > American/British.
Also, the luxury brand of an automaker falls pretty damn close to where the non-luxury brand lands: Lexus/Toyota, Buick/Chevy, Hyundai/Kia, Infiniti/Nissan, Audi/Volkswagen, Cadillac/GMC, Fiat/Dodge/Ram, Chrysler/Jeep. Which would make sense since they share mechanical parts, but not infotainment/luxury features. When infotainment/luxury features are factored into the dependability score, it leads to the conclusion the article is trying to draw.
[+] [-] thorwasdfasdf|7 years ago|reply
Once you get beyond 10 years, any mechanic will tell you the European cars are absolute garbage. Especially BMW, Audi and Mercedes will self destruct at some point after 10 years. And those parts cost a heck of a lot more than non-luxury brands. Sometimes, they won't even sell you a part by its own piece so you have to buy the whole assembly for 1000$ even if all you need is a tiny part that's supposed to cost no more than 50$.
[+] [-] headmelted|7 years ago|reply
I had it explained to me once by a MOT tester (a safety and emissions test in the UK that cars more than four years old must undergo annually) while my old Corolla was on the ramp that Toyota's process basically involves hardening parts from the last model for the most popular defects, with as little re-design work of the internal components between generations as possible. I have no idea if the chap knew what he was talking about or not but it would certainly seem to stand up to my own anecdotal scrutiny - the car is 18 years old and still drives like new (it stayed in the extended family), which is more than can be said for the Renault that replaced it >:-(
[+] [-] dsfyu404ed|7 years ago|reply
Generally speaking cheap disposable appliance cars are cheap and disposable. OEMs put much more effort into their flagship products and the products that define their brand image.
Also just a friendly reminder that owner demographics have a large effect on reliability over the kind of 5+yr timeline many commenters here seem to be talking in. The wealthier the owner the better the vehicle is treated (at a statistical level, we all know one or two rich guys who never change their oil). Rich people years vs poor people years is like highway miles vs city miles.
[+] [-] dragonwriter|7 years ago|reply
Or not.
Buick/Chevy/Lincoln > Audi/VW > Mitsubishi/Acura
[+] [-] tgeorge|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] danans|7 years ago|reply
Electric batteries and drivetrains have their differences in reliability for sure (IIUC, the 1st generation Nissan Leaf lacked a battery temp management system). However the difference between the reliability of EVs isn't likely to be that big since EVs are much simpler machines.
A lot of the complexity that provides the luxury ICE driving experience (smooth, quiet drivetrain, strong acceleration) comes for "free" in an EV, even in mass market models. With that complexity gone, there's much less to differentiate cars from a reliability perspective.
[+] [-] clouddrover|7 years ago|reply
Tesla is among the least reliable car brands at the moment:
https://www.consumerreports.org/media-room/press-releases/20...
But I think that says more about the relative immaturity of Tesla's manufacturing than it does about EVs generally.
It will be interesting to see how Volkswagen's modular MEB electric car platform goes in the long term. The MEB platform designed to be used across multiple VW brands (VW, Audi, SEAT, and Skoda) and Volkswagen is interested in licensing it to other manufacturers so it will be widely used.
[+] [-] woolvalley|7 years ago|reply
Toyota has a bunch of somewhat related experience with the Prius, so they might still come out on top in the end of these EV wars?
[+] [-] kogus|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kbutler|7 years ago|reply
High cost: more attention to detail, higher quality parts, more care with fit and finish, should yield fewer defects.
Low cost: simpler vehicle systems, fewer moving parts, fewer unproven features, mass production with consistent processes, should yield fewer defects.
[+] [-] dfxm12|7 years ago|reply
Part of it seems to be that there aren't more features in luxury cars. If you look at the graph, we're seeing mass market cars getting fewer problems and luxury cars remaining relatively flat.
[+] [-] AdmiralAsshat|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] SlowRobotAhead|7 years ago|reply
In the last 5-8 years there has been a DRAMATIC change in the way vehicles are tested and released. Everyone has become much more focused on electronic features - while at the same time almost everyone is completely outsourcing electronics design and firmware. Cars hit the lots with 10 new flashes waiting. When I started, it was a BIG DEAL if you had a lot held up somewhere in Detroit because of a pending flash.
I've worked with two of the big three, and right now, neither own their traction control, radio, trans, body, ignition, steering, etc controllers. Basically anything. Even engines are being outsourced. I don't just mean the module, but the code on it. One of the mfgs, their engineers can't even SEE radio code or anything much more than general documents. They used to have compiler access to most things, now it's extremely rare.
The mfgs wanted to outsource the development, and now when they need an adjustment to traction control it's a $50, 100, 250, 500,000 charge, BUT, they've also moved the responsibility to the mfgs like Bosch, ConTevis, etc.
Short version is everyone is playing the game to get hot new electronics in cars, to make them seem as advanced as phones - but the work is not being put in besides surface level customer view. I've found obvious glitches in zero mile vehicles this year, but none I can think of from 2000-2013
I would not purchase a 2019 anything right now. I'd allow for two-three years worth of flashes before considering a new car. And that doesn't mean you're "safe" with your old car. You think your 2001 Subaru Outback is going strong? Well, surprise, you're likely to fall victim to a different issue.
As to the article, yes, luxury cars are worse. Most people that don't realize you can't leave your touring Ferarri in the garage not hooked up to a trickle charger, or also picking on Ferarri that the LaFerarri when runs battery dead may require to be loaded on a truck and shipped to a dealer before it'll charge again, or that the new Range Rovers will attempt to void your battery and electronics warranty if they find a radar/laser detector hooked up because THAT is how finicky the electronics system is.
It's funny to me the amount of work that your average Toyota or Chevy vehicle gets relative to lux models that skirt by with less engineering and more features.
As to Cadillac and Lexus, those are just GM and Toyota, all the same things plus some. So fundamentally they're the same, but yes, add features add problem areas.
[+] [-] albeec13|7 years ago|reply
It seems every manufacturer or parent brand has their own infotainment system, NAV, etc. and you pay the price for it when you buy the car. And god forbid you want the upgraded safety features or leather seats, but don't want any of the other bells and whistles, because you can't have it without tacking on $4000 for the "technology" package.
My ideal car these days is one with the safety bells and whistles, limited luxury features (automatic and heated/cooled seats, climate control), but without any complicated infotainment beyond bluetooth/Android auto/Apple Car Play connectivity. There's no reason to have redundant technology built into cars by companies that aren't as good at it when we have perfectly capable, and generally more up-to-date mobile devices with us at all times.
Is anyone making reasonably well-appointed vehicles without throwing everything and the kitchen sink in there?
[+] [-] 4ad|7 years ago|reply
Sadly, I think "normal" cars will go extinct the way non-smartphones and non-smart TVs went extinct. It's impossible to buy a TV these days that is not infected with Internet of Shit.
Where's the 70 Series Toyota Land Cruiser of today? The 70 series is still being made, it's just not sold in developed countries. Why can't they just make it emission compliant and sell that car in the EU and US? That's the car I want!
[+] [-] justin66|7 years ago|reply
I can see where this would complicate and slow delivery of bugfixes, but if you ask me who I'd rather have mucking around with my ABS firmware, a GM engineer or a Bosch engineer, that's an easy answer.
[+] [-] hangonhn|7 years ago|reply
My 2013 (F30) BMW 3-series is similar in its parts sourcing. The turbo is made by Mitsubishi and the transmission is made by ZF (which is pretty much industry standard). Other than the engine, body, and maybe the steering components, everything else is again outsourced. So far it's been pretty damn reliable though.
[+] [-] davidw|7 years ago|reply
That said, the best answer is clearly to ride bikes more! A lot better for the environment, your wallet, and your own health!
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/04/18/get-rich-with-bike...
[+] [-] Sohcahtoa82|7 years ago|reply
My Subaru's infotainment system has strange intermittent bugs with the Bluetooth system. I get annoyed that even if the developer fixes it, I'll never see an update without buying a new car.
It's one of the reasons I'm such a Tesla fanboy. They do software updates. What's really great too is that they're done over the air. You don't need to bring it to a dealer and pay a ridiculous fee for it.
It'd be really nice if the other manufacturers could get on that.
[+] [-] coupdejarnac|7 years ago|reply
My former employer had plenty of unpleasant experiences outsourcing firmware, which contributed to bringing it all back in house.
[+] [-] repler|7 years ago|reply
Do you mean a model that is all new for 2019 or do you mean literally any car assembled in 2019?
[+] [-] Simulacra|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] grewil2|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jacquesm|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pravda|7 years ago|reply
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKN5Wl4uTyY
[+] [-] diddid|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kenhwang|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] black-tea|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] zokula|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dickeytk|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] athenot|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] YeahSureWhyNot|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Neil44|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gnicholas|7 years ago|reply
Also, the fact that it's under warranty and the BMW dealership will give you a loaner makes you more likely to take it in for extended troubleshooting/repair.
[+] [-] albeec13|7 years ago|reply
Here: "Toyotas and Chevys Are Holding Up Better Than Most Luxury Brands"
Article: "Toyotas and Chevys Are More Reliable Than BMW and Mercedes, J.D. Power Finds"
Article content (paraphrasing): "Lexus, Porsche top the list" "Most German manufacturers lag behind US"
So which is it? Bloomberg doesn't appear to be trying too hard here.
[+] [-] sitkack|7 years ago|reply
Wear a timex, drive a toyota, compute with a thinkpad, listen to a yamaha and process with a cuisanart.
[+] [-] davidw|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] acroback|7 years ago|reply
I spent a total of $1200(wipers, tires, engine oil) in 100k miles and still gives me 39 mpg on highways.
Love the car. My next Car is going to be either Japanese or a Korean.
[+] [-] unknown|7 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] vondur|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dsfyu404ed|7 years ago|reply
Reliability variation between models > reliability variation between brands. Generally speaking cheap disposable appliance cars are cheap and disposable. OEMs put much more effort into their flagship products and the products that define their brand image.
Owner demographics have a large effect on reliability over the kind of 5+yr timeline many commenters here seem to be talking in. The wealthier the owner the better the vehicle is treated (at a statistical level, we all know one or two rich guys who never change their oil). Rich people years vs poor people years is like highway miles vs city miles. As vehicles get older they get cheaper they move down the economic ladder which tends to complicate things a little. In states with road salt wealthier people are much more likely to keep their vehicles in garages or wash them regularly.
When it comes to vehicles >8yo (or whatever the oldest banks will write a loan for at present) you see on the road is not necessarily what's reliable or what's popular. The dealership auction system tends to siphon off vehicles over a certain age and/or under a certain value to the South American (from North America) and African/Middle Eastern (from Europe) markets. This means that vehicles owned by the demographics that tend to trade in regularly (wealthier on average) will not stick around as well as the vehicles owned by people who don't or who tend to buy/sell private party (less wealthy on average). So the old vehicle you see driving around are not necessarily a 1:1 representation of what was or wasn't reliable or what was or wasn't popular back in the year they were sold. Different demographics keep vehicles for different amounts of time. People tend to get new vehicles at life milestones younger people are moving up in the world commuting, starting families and this prompts them to change vehicle more often. Grandpa bought a 'Vic in '94 and has been driving it since.
Replacement cost greatly effects a how long a vehicle is kept in service. Replacing a compact SUV is cheap compared to a 1-ton truck so at any point in time the owner of the big truck is much more likely to fix any problem that comes up rather than go looking for a replacement. Look at the 90s Fords you still see around. Ford sold a TON of Explorers yet 1st and 2nd gen Explorers are a rarity on the roads compared to F-series.
Also, just because you never see a particular make/model where you live doesn't mean they don't exist in large numbers elsewhere.
There's probably a few things I'm forgetting but people would do well to keep in mind all the things that aren't being controlled for when they read about vehicle "reliability".
[+] [-] nkingsy|7 years ago|reply