I live in China for 10+ years now, and I believe it is turning the whole country into a prison. Here are some of my observations from Shanghai:
- while walking 1.1km from my home to the subway station, I counted 47 cameras, and probably missed 10 or so, not counting 20-25 cameras inside the subway station,
- every few days in the morning the police will block the subway entrance and check documents, I get checked every time probably because I have a bit of a beard,
- for the last month, I've been stopped in the street twice to check documents,
- for the last 5-7 years every bag has to be scanned when entering subway, and Q3' 2019 full body scanners will be rolled out,
- our neighbors complained that we receive "too much" delivery packages, so the police came to search our house (no warrant needed), they had a printout of all my online orders (no warrant needed) and my chats (no warrant needed), and they keep asking "where do we spend our money",
- car horns are prohibited now within the 2nd Ring, and the offenders' plate numbers are displayed over the city — think about the technology of identifying car plates in a 30+ million city traffic by horn sound,
- jaywalking is prohibited and offenders get penalties to their social credit,
- a new app called "study the word of Xi Jinping" is almost compulsory, my wife's mom is calling us often to make sure we "study", her Party unit gets points for this, and if we don't "study", my wife will be kicked out of the Party with many consequences,
- my wife's brother is on the blacklist for high-speed train and air travel because he bankrupted his company and couldn't pay back the loan, he lives in the West and has to travel for 3 days with a slow train to visit his family...
Not saying these things are black or white, but this is certainly a scary direction and it gets more and more oppressive day by day.
>>our neighbors complained that we receive "too much" delivery packages
That feels like straight out of 1984. I mean what are they driven by? I can only imagine the brainwashing that leads to things like party loyalty and snitching on neighbors because they look like they order a lot of toys.
>>they had a printout of all my online orders (no warrant needed) and my chats (no warrant needed)
Given all this do you really want to be risking your own and your family's life by writing this on HN?
>>a new app called "study the word of Xi Jinping" is almost compulsory
This is laughable. Seriously. For starters. Forcing or demanding respect never works.
Google's pursuit of Dragonfly is only going to exacerbate this situation and they will actively be complicate in the censorship of these human rights violations and further enable the Chinese government's ability to suppress dissent.
When Google left China they did so because they had "...evidence to suggest that a primary goal of the attackers was accessing the Gmail accounts of Chinese human rights activists."[0]
Given the status quo, what message does it send to the Chinese government that Google is willing to backtrack on their statements and work with a government that is even more evil than the one they left? It's naïve to think that the Chinese government won't use Google's re-entry as a tool for suppression, and it's also naïve to think that Google doesn't understand this. Their greed will only further facilitate these human rights abuses.
On the other hand, censorship isn't perfect, and giving more access to the internet means more access to west and censored ideas by the masses. I can't predict how it will play out, but I was hoping that Dragonfly, if launched, would result in better access to information for Chinese who currently are already censored AND have worse access to the treasure trove of info on the internet than us in the West.
I liked the graphics heavy style of the article. Also, it doesn't touch upon the brutality of the indoctrination camps. There are reports of them being forced to eat pork, forced marriages,etc. I wonder if this is the closest we can get to NK outside NK.
I'm glad you posted this because I felt the exact opposite (it's almost always good to have my assumptions questioned).
I wanted to read some info but I had to click, see a picture, and then see some small amount of text slowly appear. I closed the tab after seeing that on the first image -- to me it's basically as worthless as a video. I don't have the patience for that and feel that the NYT doesn't value my time. Clearly some people feel the opposite!
I would love to see some data on these experiments by the nyt: do they show greater revenue than ordinary articles?
I don't get why China is taking these extreme measures. I know there's a general feeling of anxiety towards Muslims (I'm Muslim) and I understand that China worries about these sorts of cultural issues. But this is really heavy-handed. Can someone explain this to me?
Of course, I should make clear that I completely condemn this type of behavior from any country. And point out that letting China get away with this means many other countries will do the same.
An authoritarian one-party government correctly views religious organizations (or corporations, or large unions) as a threat to its power that needs to be managed.
With regard to religion, they can try to cope with this by driving people out, "reeducating" people, or manipulating the leaders of the church (issuing threats or just appointing their own Catholic bishops, Buddhist Lamas, and so on). I believe you will find examples of these things happening in modern China.
Everyone seems to ignore the trouble China has with terrorists in this region. Plane hijackings, mass killings, suicide bombings. I think that you have to view what's happening in the context of the violent terrorist attacks that have occurred.
You realize that this and worse (actual death penalty for the wrong religion) is quite common, right? All across northern Africa and southern Asia, particularly where they meet around the Middle East, it is totally normal to take far more extreme measures. Until the Chinese can go preach atheism in Mecca without fear of decapitation, they don't seem to be all that extreme.
There were quite a few incidents happened in the past, hundreds of people were killed, tens of attacks. Basically declared the city as unsafe to live. The government recognized the old policy was a failure, and then new official is assigned, and trying to do something different. Currently it is well received by the central government because the violence has dropped. It is not about cultural issues.
It's not so much that they're Muslim, but that they're Uighar, concentrated in one region, and calling for independence much like Tibetans. The Hui are also a majority-Muslim ethnicity within China, but their faith is accepted and even growing, because they're less geographically concentrated and seem to be fine being part of China [1].
Note that's not to excuse the terrible treatment of the Uighars, but to illustrate that it's not just about their religion.
How can civil conflict of any kind possibly justify treatment of civilians by their own Goverment in this way? Regardless of your intentions that comment is insensitive and avoidant of the conversation.
As technology workers our influence on the world around us is outsized in many ways. At some point we have to get more heavily involved in building civil society in local and global ways. Live and let live is a great mantra but it is failing because we don’t excercize the influence we have in ways that can prevent these things from happening. If Facebook is toxic it can and should be forced to change. If the Chinese state is complicit in such large scale crimes against humanity then it’s ability to trade with us can be severely curtailed to influence behaviour. Consider California alone passing laws that prohibit investment or even trade with companies who have investment from such states. The change will be swift.
Good lord, that place is unbelievably dystopian. If it wasn't real, I would have called it a bad Orwellian fiction.
Dozens of security cameras everywhere, inside shops, streets, and even the mosque. Mandatory government id, tied to a facial recognition regime. No shortage of well armed police, and plenty of fear.
From another article:
" 120,000 Uighurs are being held in Chinese political reeducation camps in Kashgar prefecture alone, according to Radio Free Asia (RFA). Guards force detainees to sing patriotic songs, bombard them with propaganda, and require them to study “Xi Jinping Thought.” Beijing does not publicly acknowledge the existence of these camps, yet Uighur activists estimate 1 million Uighurs have been detained since April 2017. "
Given this climate, I find it hard to believe that this is the only activities going on behind the camp doors.
If there was ever something the US should condemn China for, it's this.
When will founders decide that accepting Chinese VC funding is unethical? The money feeds back into a system that gives human rights very little value.
Although I personally find this pretty nightmarish yet I still can acknowledge it makes some sense and there probably is quite a number of people who would prefer to live in a surveillance-heavy police-state city (willing to trade privacy for guaranteed lack of criminals around). So I believe such a city should exist in every country just for them (in fact the more different kinds of places to choose from there are in a country - the better) as long as people outside don't get discriminated and as long as people who lived in the city before the surveillance system implementation are well-assisted and compensated in moving out.
This article looks like digital “rags” should, its editorial, but the rich media, subtle sound, really bring it to life. It could do with a bit more text and details, but the format in general is stellar.
What bothers me about HN is how people here are afraid to criticize the Chinese government and their authoritarian regime. We should be fearlessly talking about it. What happens here is the “softening” of opinions either by A) Comparing with America B) Somehow justifying authoritarian governments by observing success and economic progress in Shanghai/Shenzhen.
I feel that Googlers inside of Google has the same type of environment but with combined strong business justification to oppose project DragonFly.
HN is one of the most intellectual communities in the internet, I love reading comments just about anything here. Except for this topic - I despise HN in this regard.
In the past, I was told by moderators to not post any inciting comments that are about China because it ends up being USA vs China. What a shame...While I agree that the conversation becomes toxic, what’s the point of a community where I cannot freely express criticism of a government that takes a lot of risk by real journalists to put stories like this in front of the world.
I don't think people on HN are afraid to criticize the Chinese government. I just don't think they understand how bad the situation is. This is partially because the Chinese government has been extremely successful at censoring both domestic and international press, and partially because most people just don't care. I hate the discussions on Chinese culture on Reddit because the "discussions" are really just westerners regurgitating common myths and stereotypes they read elsewhere on Reddit. I can't count the number of comments I've read on HN in the past few months from white Googlers who have never been to China linking some medium post from a Chinese citizen "Asking for Google to come to China", as if that justifies Dragonfly.
This is just my personal observation and I'm biased in my heritage, but in America I've noticed that the problems afflicting Asians get noticeably less attention and sympathy. In public school, the Japanese detainment camps were almost completely glossed over in history class. Casual racism against Asians is still socially acceptable even at a time when society is more sensitive to prejudice and discrimination. Very people care about the human rights situations in North Korea and China even though, objectively, they're more serious and older than more recent conflicts that get more attention.
This thread, which was about tech scenes in China for foreigners, cultural differences, 996, etc., started to breed discussions about organ harvesting accusations. The mods politely, but firmly, steered the conversation back on topic.
I disagree with the premise that HN is afraid to criticize China. This article being on the front page is evidence of that. But there's a way to do so civilly, and that was not it.
Edit: The replies to your top-level also show the difference between constructive discussion of China's authoritarianism and flat out attacks on the country, and the vote count reaffirms that, I think.
Edit 2: I might be confusing you with another user, unless you have an alt. Apologies if so. But the overall comment stands about moderators telling people to behave when discussing China.
As a Chinese, I dont really understand the utility it brings to the table of people here criticizing Chinese government on issues like this NYT article. I dont see that it will make China a better place or bring new knowledge to the HN community. So I agree with the moderator's approach.
The reason being we (me included) are not subject experts on the issues.
>what’s the point of a community where I cannot freely express criticism of a government that takes a lot of risk by real journalists to put stories like this in front of the world.
The problem is you are probably not at a position to be able to differentiate whether this piece is by journalists taking risks and unveiling the truth or just a subtle propaganda to some degree. (And i'm very surprised by your confidence in Western media on issues related to China, yet most of HNers understand how inaccurate media are when dealing within their respective fields.)
I can go on and on about this topic. I also encourage you to talk to some Chinese around you who are first generation immigrants, rather than forming a China criticizing bubble here or somewhere else with other Westerners.
I have to disagree with this. I think that people are afraid to "clarify the situation" in China because they will be downvoted or harassed. It's the reason I'm using a throwaway.
What China is doing is draconian and brutal, but it's like the media is completely wrong about the reason.
First, this is China's reaction to a string of horrying terrorist attacks.
Second, if any other country was doing this, the media would be calling them "de-radicalization centers."
Third, it isn't about oppressing Muslims or even Uighurs, but "potential terrorists."
Of course the decision on who is a "potential terrorist" is the main issue. China is being very heavy handed and that is where the ire should be directed.
I think this article gives a much better observation of what is going on over there:
Yeah I think the moderators were influenced partly by Sam Altman’s persistence to start YC China, and now with the YC china running.
There is something all of us on HN can do though.
Stop buying stuff from China
Before you moan and groan and say it’s impossible, yes it’s possible. European, Japanese, and South Korean manufacturers have been moving out of China for a few years. Taiwan recently so. Hardwares are coming out of Vietnam and Thailand now. Footwears and clothes are coming mostly out of India now. Telecom equipments are out of Taiwan again.
With China, you mean the regime of Xi ( and some of the Chinese culture => foreigners are doomed to fail).
Don't put China on board with Xi like we ( Europe) should generalize America with Trump though. Even Chinese don't agree how it works now ( eg. 996ICU)
Not everything is that black and white. I do have to agree, i have nothing against Chinese. But i have a big "problem" with China vs the rest and what they are doing now ( one road one belt).
I don't think there is any explicit pro-china bias, but without necessarily even being conscious of it, when you are trying to, or actually are doing business with China, you want to tell yourself as positive as story as you can about China. And when you are faced with horrific facts about China, then the tendency fall back on self criticism and creating some equivalency. How can we criticize China for concentration camps when America have the largest prison population.
[+] [-] mstaoru|7 years ago|reply
- while walking 1.1km from my home to the subway station, I counted 47 cameras, and probably missed 10 or so, not counting 20-25 cameras inside the subway station,
- every few days in the morning the police will block the subway entrance and check documents, I get checked every time probably because I have a bit of a beard,
- for the last month, I've been stopped in the street twice to check documents,
- for the last 5-7 years every bag has to be scanned when entering subway, and Q3' 2019 full body scanners will be rolled out,
- our neighbors complained that we receive "too much" delivery packages, so the police came to search our house (no warrant needed), they had a printout of all my online orders (no warrant needed) and my chats (no warrant needed), and they keep asking "where do we spend our money",
- car horns are prohibited now within the 2nd Ring, and the offenders' plate numbers are displayed over the city — think about the technology of identifying car plates in a 30+ million city traffic by horn sound,
- jaywalking is prohibited and offenders get penalties to their social credit,
- a new app called "study the word of Xi Jinping" is almost compulsory, my wife's mom is calling us often to make sure we "study", her Party unit gets points for this, and if we don't "study", my wife will be kicked out of the Party with many consequences,
- my wife's brother is on the blacklist for high-speed train and air travel because he bankrupted his company and couldn't pay back the loan, he lives in the West and has to travel for 3 days with a slow train to visit his family...
Not saying these things are black or white, but this is certainly a scary direction and it gets more and more oppressive day by day.
[+] [-] kamaal|7 years ago|reply
That feels like straight out of 1984. I mean what are they driven by? I can only imagine the brainwashing that leads to things like party loyalty and snitching on neighbors because they look like they order a lot of toys.
>>they had a printout of all my online orders (no warrant needed) and my chats (no warrant needed)
Given all this do you really want to be risking your own and your family's life by writing this on HN?
>>a new app called "study the word of Xi Jinping" is almost compulsory
This is laughable. Seriously. For starters. Forcing or demanding respect never works.
[+] [-] o10449366|7 years ago|reply
When Google left China they did so because they had "...evidence to suggest that a primary goal of the attackers was accessing the Gmail accounts of Chinese human rights activists."[0]
Since then, by Google's own numbers, the Chinese government has become significantly more suppressive and demanding: https://transparencyreport.google.com/government-removals/by...
Given the status quo, what message does it send to the Chinese government that Google is willing to backtrack on their statements and work with a government that is even more evil than the one they left? It's naïve to think that the Chinese government won't use Google's re-entry as a tool for suppression, and it's also naïve to think that Google doesn't understand this. Their greed will only further facilitate these human rights abuses.
[0]: https://googleblog.blogspot.com/2010/01/new-approach-to-chin...
[+] [-] jaxbot|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] 0xcafecafe|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gumby|7 years ago|reply
I'm glad you posted this because I felt the exact opposite (it's almost always good to have my assumptions questioned).
I wanted to read some info but I had to click, see a picture, and then see some small amount of text slowly appear. I closed the tab after seeing that on the first image -- to me it's basically as worthless as a video. I don't have the patience for that and feel that the NYT doesn't value my time. Clearly some people feel the opposite!
I would love to see some data on these experiments by the nyt: do they show greater revenue than ordinary articles?
[+] [-] mrpopo|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] MayeulC|7 years ago|reply
Luckily, with reader mode I had access to the text, though the images were left to my imagination.
[+] [-] Ozzie_osman|7 years ago|reply
Of course, I should make clear that I completely condemn this type of behavior from any country. And point out that letting China get away with this means many other countries will do the same.
[+] [-] justin66|7 years ago|reply
With regard to religion, they can try to cope with this by driving people out, "reeducating" people, or manipulating the leaders of the church (issuing threats or just appointing their own Catholic bishops, Buddhist Lamas, and so on). I believe you will find examples of these things happening in modern China.
[+] [-] HansLandaa|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tropo|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] powerapple|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] zachguo|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] professorgerm|7 years ago|reply
Note that's not to excuse the terrible treatment of the Uighars, but to illustrate that it's not just about their religion.
[1]: http://time.com/3099950/china-muslim-hui-xinjiang-uighur-isl...
[+] [-] throwaway29875|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] zachguo|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Ennis|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Ennis|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Hasz|7 years ago|reply
Dozens of security cameras everywhere, inside shops, streets, and even the mosque. Mandatory government id, tied to a facial recognition regime. No shortage of well armed police, and plenty of fear.
From another article: " 120,000 Uighurs are being held in Chinese political reeducation camps in Kashgar prefecture alone, according to Radio Free Asia (RFA). Guards force detainees to sing patriotic songs, bombard them with propaganda, and require them to study “Xi Jinping Thought.” Beijing does not publicly acknowledge the existence of these camps, yet Uighur activists estimate 1 million Uighurs have been detained since April 2017. "
Given this climate, I find it hard to believe that this is the only activities going on behind the camp doors.
If there was ever something the US should condemn China for, it's this.
[+] [-] gdhbcc|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tuxxy|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] OrgNet|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] qwerty456127|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dmix|7 years ago|reply
Wow, this is the definition of a modern police state. Sounds like a dystopian video game.
[+] [-] unknown|7 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] redm|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|7 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] spectramax|7 years ago|reply
I feel that Googlers inside of Google has the same type of environment but with combined strong business justification to oppose project DragonFly.
HN is one of the most intellectual communities in the internet, I love reading comments just about anything here. Except for this topic - I despise HN in this regard.
In the past, I was told by moderators to not post any inciting comments that are about China because it ends up being USA vs China. What a shame...While I agree that the conversation becomes toxic, what’s the point of a community where I cannot freely express criticism of a government that takes a lot of risk by real journalists to put stories like this in front of the world.
[+] [-] o10449366|7 years ago|reply
This is just my personal observation and I'm biased in my heritage, but in America I've noticed that the problems afflicting Asians get noticeably less attention and sympathy. In public school, the Japanese detainment camps were almost completely glossed over in history class. Casual racism against Asians is still socially acceptable even at a time when society is more sensitive to prejudice and discrimination. Very people care about the human rights situations in North Korea and China even though, objectively, they're more serious and older than more recent conflicts that get more attention.
[+] [-] jaxbot|7 years ago|reply
This thread, which was about tech scenes in China for foreigners, cultural differences, 996, etc., started to breed discussions about organ harvesting accusations. The mods politely, but firmly, steered the conversation back on topic.
I disagree with the premise that HN is afraid to criticize China. This article being on the front page is evidence of that. But there's a way to do so civilly, and that was not it.
Edit: The replies to your top-level also show the difference between constructive discussion of China's authoritarianism and flat out attacks on the country, and the vote count reaffirms that, I think.
Edit 2: I might be confusing you with another user, unless you have an alt. Apologies if so. But the overall comment stands about moderators telling people to behave when discussing China.
[+] [-] theseadroid|7 years ago|reply
The reason being we (me included) are not subject experts on the issues.
>what’s the point of a community where I cannot freely express criticism of a government that takes a lot of risk by real journalists to put stories like this in front of the world.
The problem is you are probably not at a position to be able to differentiate whether this piece is by journalists taking risks and unveiling the truth or just a subtle propaganda to some degree. (And i'm very surprised by your confidence in Western media on issues related to China, yet most of HNers understand how inaccurate media are when dealing within their respective fields.)
I can go on and on about this topic. I also encourage you to talk to some Chinese around you who are first generation immigrants, rather than forming a China criticizing bubble here or somewhere else with other Westerners.
[+] [-] throwaway29875|7 years ago|reply
What China is doing is draconian and brutal, but it's like the media is completely wrong about the reason.
First, this is China's reaction to a string of horrying terrorist attacks.
Second, if any other country was doing this, the media would be calling them "de-radicalization centers."
Third, it isn't about oppressing Muslims or even Uighurs, but "potential terrorists."
Of course the decision on who is a "potential terrorist" is the main issue. China is being very heavy handed and that is where the ire should be directed.
I think this article gives a much better observation of what is going on over there:
https://palladiummag.com/2018/11/29/a-week-in-xinjiangs-abso...
[+] [-] throwawaybeijj|7 years ago|reply
There is something all of us on HN can do though.
Stop buying stuff from China
Before you moan and groan and say it’s impossible, yes it’s possible. European, Japanese, and South Korean manufacturers have been moving out of China for a few years. Taiwan recently so. Hardwares are coming out of Vietnam and Thailand now. Footwears and clothes are coming mostly out of India now. Telecom equipments are out of Taiwan again.
[+] [-] unknown|7 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] NicoJuicy|7 years ago|reply
Don't put China on board with Xi like we ( Europe) should generalize America with Trump though. Even Chinese don't agree how it works now ( eg. 996ICU)
You mention Project Dragonfly, but have you ever considered that it could actually save lives? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18574181
Not everything is that black and white. I do have to agree, i have nothing against Chinese. But i have a big "problem" with China vs the rest and what they are doing now ( one road one belt).
[+] [-] iDontGiveAshit|7 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] gringoDan|7 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] WillPostForFood|7 years ago|reply
I don't think there is any explicit pro-china bias, but without necessarily even being conscious of it, when you are trying to, or actually are doing business with China, you want to tell yourself as positive as story as you can about China. And when you are faced with horrific facts about China, then the tendency fall back on self criticism and creating some equivalency. How can we criticize China for concentration camps when America have the largest prison population.
[+] [-] pmarreck|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] stevespang|7 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] rasengan|7 years ago|reply
[deleted]