When I first saw the subreddit, I thought it was a neat idea. I like the idea of digging into a tough subject and challenging our beliefs.
I couldn't put my finger on it for the longest time, but what I eventually realized was that I didn't like how inauthentic the whole thing felt. Changing a deeply held belief just isn't that easy, yet almost every thread has the OP giving a delta.
How it appears to me is that people have beliefs that they realize are either unpopular or controversial, and so they use the subreddit to learn what they "should" believe or at least a rationalization for ignoring their true beliefs.
> How it appears to me is that people have beliefs that they realize are either unpopular or controversial, and so they use the subreddit to learn what they "should" believe or at least a rationalization for ignoring their true beliefs.
A large portion of Reddit in general (especially the front page and popular subreddits) is people making up stories/opinions/content created specifically to illicit as many replies and argument as possible, as that's what gets more votes and attention. It's a popularity contest, not a place for genuine discussion.
You see it here too, to a lesser extent. You see it everywhere there's likes/upvotes tied to accounts. People compete for the high score.
I still personally think forums were/are a better format for discussion. Just a flowing conversation where general activity in a thread bumps it up and not votes.
I think the main use of CMV is for people to post things they disagree with because they want to crowdsource an argument against it. There's definitely been times when my counterargument to a point was much better articulated on CMV than I could have ever come up with on my own.
I wouldn't be surprised if there were political operatives from both parties crowdsourcing arguments that agree with their point of view by posting the opposite point of view.
For better or worse, the "delta" concept has become to mean "you made a good point on the opposite side that I hadn't considered" and still serves a useful function in that context.
People probably don’t use it to question their closely held beliefs. Like me, they probably used it when they had a loosely held opinion that they weren’t sure the validity of.
Beliefs usually aren't changed by one conversation, but that doesn't mean that a single conversation can't contribute to a person changing their view. If it's part a gradual process it can still have value.
The problem is that getting the OP to change their mind on a portion of their submission statement counts as worthy of a delta, even if it makes no material difference to their opinion. For instance, many posters that are not careful with their words might say "most people are bad at ___" but have no supporting data for "most", and so then will simply award a delta and amend their opinion to "too many" or something of that nature.
There are two problems that you will have to deal with:
- auto-discovery and growth through r/all - no longer will you have people popping in because you made it to Reddit's front page
- loss of the great number of current subscribers who (before) can go to their reddit homepage and see your top posts automatically, but (now) would have to go to a totally new website to see your posts. I subscribe to about 40 subreddits but only visit deliberately about 3 of those.
Good luck (sincerely), but I would not be surprised if r/CMV stays larger than your new independent website.
It'd be not-that-difficult, technology wise, to integrate with Reddit, with submissions instead going to changeaview.com instead of reddit.com's comment section.
They could solve both issues by federating with Mastodon instead. No, they wouldn't be on Reddit specifically, but they'd be interacting with a fairly sizeable userbase nonetheless.
It'll be interesting to see if this works. If it does, it means that Reddit mods can gain full ownership of their communities and do something more than just run a volunteer subreddit. If you run a popular sub, I think it's reasonable to ask why you are spending countless unpaid hours tending to a community when someone else reaps all the profit. It's natural to say: "Okay, I have hundreds of thousands of users here on Reddit. That's gotta be worth something."
This does open the Pandora's box of monetizing a group of people that really dislike getting monetized. (Reddit users, that is.) And if it does work, maybe Reddit communities will start to be seen as a way to start community-based businesses/organizations.
I mod a large-ish subreddit and I disagree with moderators "gaining full ownership of their communities". Not every mod was around since the very beginning or did most of these mods spend considerable effort marketing their communities like one would do in an actual company. Even for communities with a clear theme and set of behavioural rules (e.g. r/CMV), a lot of that is enforceable via AutoMod. Most of what moderators do are barely more than Internet janitors.
A volunteer position is voluntary. There is no contract or minimum time commitment (though some subs have minimum mod action requirements). If a moderator no longer likes to commit their time, they can either go on a hiatus or leave.
Monetizing individual Reddit communities or paying moderators will create a whole plethora of financial and ethical issues which Reddit HQ is obviously unwilling to address at the moment. I'm pretty sure they've thought about this and decided keeping the status quo is the best choice for the time being.
This won’t work. Here is why: I tried the same thing with /r/lifeprotips.
I created that subreddit YEARS ago and initially wanted to build the website for it.
I populated all the good life hacks that I found throughout the internet initially to the subreddit and the community naturally grew — but I also invested time and money into it (by giving gold to top members).
Then when I launched the website, I had an auto moderator rule that removed a post from anyone who submitted a link-based post and PM’d them telling them to submit to the new website (@lifeprotips.com).
Well, guess what happened? Someone got upset and reported me. Because I had Adsense on it, that went to “justify” their case saying I was monetizing the subreddit.
It resulted in a subsequent shadow ban which eventually led to the removal of my reddit account (pretty old account with lots of history).
The mod who did this is /u/krispykrackers.
Good luck, though. I’m rooting for you, because Reddit doesn’t reward or appreciate creators, and without them, they’d be nothing.
The mistake you made was allowing posts at all on Reddit. You should have changed the CSS to point people at lifeprotips.com, and just created submissions for posts on lifeprotips.com.
The idea that people’s important opinions can be changed by some sort of silver bullet mega-argument is naive and immature, and frankly a great example of what’s wrong with discourse on the internet.
In this light, the fact that CMV has the hubris to think their ‘experiment’ is significant outside reddit is not surprising, but no less laughable.
> The idea that people’s important opinions can be changed by some sort of silver bullet mega-argument is naive and immature, and frankly a great example of what’s wrong with discourse on the internet.
Even more naive and immature is the idea that conversations either lead to epiphany or do nothing. Comments are read several orders of magnitude more than they're responded to. You might not change that person's mind right now, but that kind of discourse is a part of how other people form or reinforce their opinions, and the OP might be more willing to change their mind in the future upon having other interactions and experiences that challenge their views, especially if someone has shown them a good-faith argument in the past.
To paraphrase : "We have been looking to find a way to monetise community involvement and we think that moving it to somewhere that we control will let us do that."
I myself am keen on big houses, fun parties and fast cars, so I can see the attraction for the founders, I'm not sure what's in it for anyone else though.
This seem fair, why should community moderators not get paid for their work? Reddit gets everyone else to do the work and then scoops up the ad views at the end.
They will rapidly find that 90% of their traffic continues to exist within the subreddit, therefore anyone wanting a good thread will post it there rather than on the website, and the website will rapidly atrophy and be abandoned.
A friend built https://arguman.org/ a few years ago. It's a platform for structured discussions ("argument analysis") which uses a different (IMHO better) approach to discussions than unstructured text.
Woah, it looks great! Reminds me of Kialo (https://www.kialo.com/), but there are only two ways to recursively split an argument there ("agree" / "disagree") vs. three here, and I also like Arguman's layout more. Pass my thanks to your friend, as I've wanted for a long time to see discussions represented in this kind of tree layout.
(Another thing I'd really love to see would be an extension of this: a DAG of arguments, not a tree. This would most likely make sense only when arguments solidified, and could be rearranged and deduplicated to form a graph.)
This feels wrong. I created a niche sub that currently has ~10k users, but I consider the members of the community to be as much the "owners" of it as I am.
Just as I work to keep spammers and self-promoters at bay, I'd find it pretty scummy to form a startup around the sub and make money out of the contributions of thousands of community members.
Separately, I like that at Reddit I know what I get now and very likely to get in the future. But what if ChangeAView pulls a Quora and starts making it harder to view content, like requiring login, etc.
Yup. Were I a member of that community, I'd feel wronged too.
> Just as I work to keep spammers and self-promoters at bay, I'd find it pretty scummy to form a startup around the sub and make money out of the contributions of thousands of community members.
Exactly. As you said, you may have created a community and technically own the forum, but you're not the community. The community is its own thing, and the founder demanding it move somewhere else so they can monetize it would be no different than an invasion of spammers - just another attempt at profiting off the community.
I wonder how much more this will happen with the current controversy surrounding Reddit’s funding and uncertain future. They are doing surprisingly well after a horrid redesign and everything else that’s happened over there.
>CMV: Asking peopel to stop using the "OK Hand" gesture because racists use it, just gives power to that hand sign and legitimizes the white power movement.
Holy crap, some people actually discuss something like this?
Honestly, I don't see what's wrong with that discussion topic. I personally haven't come to a conclusion myself.
On one hand, knowing it's associated with racists makes me hesitate to ever use it. On the other hand, why should I let them change my behavior when a minuscule bit of research would show that I'm clearly not a racist? Like with many such things, it mostly depends on the context, but would be interested in the conversation and not so quick to dismiss it as pointless.
What's worse, people actually believe such stuff. Then you get people on the media accused of being supporters of $evil-ideology because they scratched their nose the wrong way at a conference.
Good for them. I honestly and truly hope they succeed.
I have a small sub (30-40k =/- subscribers)and thought about doing this. I have the infrastructure for my personal projects but don't know if I wanna deal with the upkeep and some of the few mods we have.
We're not political, we just wanna help people learn something and tell someone to bugger off when it's needed. Would open up a lot of possibilities and we would just use the Reddit sub as a link farm back to our site. It's horrible UI and other inabilities aren't the experiences we want for our users.
That's not a small sub, that's almost large imo. Small is anything up to a few hundred, assuming not more than 1% is active daily (a few hundred subscribers is therefore a handful of users afaict). But 35k is probably hundreds of people on there every day. Imagine all those people meeting in real life, that's a decent company.
Is there a decentralized version of Reddit that allows you to own your subreddit? I recently got burned where a sub I created was taken from me without explanation or warning and when I reached out to the admins, it fell on deaf ears. The idea that you have no ownership over your subreddit is bearable until you get burned and realize how crazy it is. Same thing goes for YouTube.
[+] [-] defertoreptar|7 years ago|reply
I couldn't put my finger on it for the longest time, but what I eventually realized was that I didn't like how inauthentic the whole thing felt. Changing a deeply held belief just isn't that easy, yet almost every thread has the OP giving a delta.
How it appears to me is that people have beliefs that they realize are either unpopular or controversial, and so they use the subreddit to learn what they "should" believe or at least a rationalization for ignoring their true beliefs.
[+] [-] Sendotsh|7 years ago|reply
A large portion of Reddit in general (especially the front page and popular subreddits) is people making up stories/opinions/content created specifically to illicit as many replies and argument as possible, as that's what gets more votes and attention. It's a popularity contest, not a place for genuine discussion.
You see it here too, to a lesser extent. You see it everywhere there's likes/upvotes tied to accounts. People compete for the high score.
I still personally think forums were/are a better format for discussion. Just a flowing conversation where general activity in a thread bumps it up and not votes.
[+] [-] jedberg|7 years ago|reply
I wouldn't be surprised if there were political operatives from both parties crowdsourcing arguments that agree with their point of view by posting the opposite point of view.
[+] [-] drcode|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] travmatt|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] freewilly1040|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Invictus0|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] SiempreViernes|7 years ago|reply
The aim is modest: just to change op’s view on a topic of their choice, not completely reverse it like the priests in age of empires do.
[+] [-] zwily|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] maxerickson|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] DONT_BE_A_MORON|7 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] propter_hoc|7 years ago|reply
- auto-discovery and growth through r/all - no longer will you have people popping in because you made it to Reddit's front page
- loss of the great number of current subscribers who (before) can go to their reddit homepage and see your top posts automatically, but (now) would have to go to a totally new website to see your posts. I subscribe to about 40 subreddits but only visit deliberately about 3 of those.
Good luck (sincerely), but I would not be surprised if r/CMV stays larger than your new independent website.
[+] [-] dehrmann|7 years ago|reply
https://trademarks.justia.com/869/44/ama-86944696.html
Update: they didn't, but they did trademark "nosleep."
[+] [-] unknown|7 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] diminoten|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] 0815test|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] msvan|7 years ago|reply
This does open the Pandora's box of monetizing a group of people that really dislike getting monetized. (Reddit users, that is.) And if it does work, maybe Reddit communities will start to be seen as a way to start community-based businesses/organizations.
[+] [-] ssnistfajen|7 years ago|reply
A volunteer position is voluntary. There is no contract or minimum time commitment (though some subs have minimum mod action requirements). If a moderator no longer likes to commit their time, they can either go on a hiatus or leave.
Monetizing individual Reddit communities or paying moderators will create a whole plethora of financial and ethical issues which Reddit HQ is obviously unwilling to address at the moment. I'm pretty sure they've thought about this and decided keeping the status quo is the best choice for the time being.
[+] [-] jasonhansel|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] fourstar|7 years ago|reply
I created that subreddit YEARS ago and initially wanted to build the website for it.
I populated all the good life hacks that I found throughout the internet initially to the subreddit and the community naturally grew — but I also invested time and money into it (by giving gold to top members).
Then when I launched the website, I had an auto moderator rule that removed a post from anyone who submitted a link-based post and PM’d them telling them to submit to the new website (@lifeprotips.com).
Well, guess what happened? Someone got upset and reported me. Because I had Adsense on it, that went to “justify” their case saying I was monetizing the subreddit.
It resulted in a subsequent shadow ban which eventually led to the removal of my reddit account (pretty old account with lots of history).
The mod who did this is /u/krispykrackers.
Good luck, though. I’m rooting for you, because Reddit doesn’t reward or appreciate creators, and without them, they’d be nothing.
[+] [-] diminoten|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] huebnerob|7 years ago|reply
In this light, the fact that CMV has the hubris to think their ‘experiment’ is significant outside reddit is not surprising, but no less laughable.
[+] [-] cirgue|7 years ago|reply
Even more naive and immature is the idea that conversations either lead to epiphany or do nothing. Comments are read several orders of magnitude more than they're responded to. You might not change that person's mind right now, but that kind of discourse is a part of how other people form or reinforce their opinions, and the OP might be more willing to change their mind in the future upon having other interactions and experiences that challenge their views, especially if someone has shown them a good-faith argument in the past.
[+] [-] ip26|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nugga|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sgt101|7 years ago|reply
I myself am keen on big houses, fun parties and fast cars, so I can see the attraction for the founders, I'm not sure what's in it for anyone else though.
[+] [-] canofbars|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] oooshha|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] r00fus|7 years ago|reply
If the option is to successfully monetize a portion of the flow vs nothing, it may turn out to be a net positive for the subreddit admins.
[+] [-] chpmrc|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] TeMPOraL|7 years ago|reply
(Another thing I'd really love to see would be an extension of this: a DAG of arguments, not a tree. This would most likely make sense only when arguments solidified, and could be rearranged and deduplicated to form a graph.)
[+] [-] markdown|7 years ago|reply
Just as I work to keep spammers and self-promoters at bay, I'd find it pretty scummy to form a startup around the sub and make money out of the contributions of thousands of community members.
Separately, I like that at Reddit I know what I get now and very likely to get in the future. But what if ChangeAView pulls a Quora and starts making it harder to view content, like requiring login, etc.
[+] [-] TeMPOraL|7 years ago|reply
> Just as I work to keep spammers and self-promoters at bay, I'd find it pretty scummy to form a startup around the sub and make money out of the contributions of thousands of community members.
Exactly. As you said, you may have created a community and technically own the forum, but you're not the community. The community is its own thing, and the founder demanding it move somewhere else so they can monetize it would be no different than an invasion of spammers - just another attempt at profiting off the community.
[+] [-] diminoten|7 years ago|reply
Well, that's one of the many many problems with Reddit's moderation.
[+] [-] jachee|7 years ago|reply
"Jimmy graduated from college." Not "Jimmy graduated college."
Alternately acceptable exception that proves the rule: "State College graduated 1500 students this year."
[+] [-] reaperducer|7 years ago|reply
See also: "Oil needs to be changed." Not "Oil needs changed."
People are afraid of "to be" these days.
[+] [-] jf22|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] snazz|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] konart|7 years ago|reply
Holy crap, some people actually discuss something like this?
[+] [-] slfnflctd|7 years ago|reply
On one hand, knowing it's associated with racists makes me hesitate to ever use it. On the other hand, why should I let them change my behavior when a minuscule bit of research would show that I'm clearly not a racist? Like with many such things, it mostly depends on the context, but would be interested in the conversation and not so quick to dismiss it as pointless.
[+] [-] TeMPOraL|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sodosopa|7 years ago|reply
I have a small sub (30-40k =/- subscribers)and thought about doing this. I have the infrastructure for my personal projects but don't know if I wanna deal with the upkeep and some of the few mods we have.
We're not political, we just wanna help people learn something and tell someone to bugger off when it's needed. Would open up a lot of possibilities and we would just use the Reddit sub as a link farm back to our site. It's horrible UI and other inabilities aren't the experiences we want for our users.
[+] [-] lucb1e|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] eecks|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] hliyan|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] durability|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dontbenebby|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] leowoo91|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] BucketSort|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Chris_Chambers|7 years ago|reply
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