> Roberts saw an opportunity not just to re-create those bygone red sauce joints, but to present the most exaggerated, over-the-top version of them, to create an environment where people could feel totally comfortable—as he describes it, "... I wanted a restaurant people could look down on.”
>
> He wanted the decor to be tacky, the portions to be enormous, the atmosphere to be boisterous. He figured it didn’t matter that he wasn’t Italian in the slightest. There were also almost no red sauce joints in Minneapolis at the time, so diners wouldn’t have anything to compare it to. This was a restaurant, he says, “that was intentionally in bad taste, but good-natured bad taste.” The kind of place where the average diner could feel superior, and not feel bad about being puzzled over a wine list, or not knowing what kind of fork is used for a salad.
The concept of a restaurant that people "look down on" seems both bold and mean-spirited. It also vaguely reminds me of an article I read about the Old Spaghetti Factory.
What are some other examples of American restaurants that followed this playbook?
A friend of mine in college opened a dive bar, which quickly became very very popular. This was the type of place where you could smell the ammonia from the urinal when you walked in the door. Spending more than an hour in there, and you left smelling like cigarette smoke and stale beer.
When opening his 2nd bar, he made the rookie mistake of "trying to finally do it right". His new bar was walking distance from the original, and had a beautiful wood bar, leather chairs, fancy plate glass windows with frosted lettering, etc (top notch plumbing too).
His 2nd bar never caught on and he eventually had to close.
The importance of "dive's" is that everyone feels comfortable. You feel you can do no wrong. Spill your beer...so what. Whereas if the place it too fancy, everyone becomes too self-aware.
These types of places like BdB aren't about customers "looking down" on the place, its about being in a place thats comfortable and where the average joe doesn't feel looked down upon.
Cheesecake Factory? They're famous for having terrible decor, service, and food, yet somehow being an essential part of the American high school prom experience.
It's actually a pretty American playbook for restaurants especially in the south. There are many BBQ, Southern Cookin, fried fish places that do this all over the place. I'm in Texas and my family frequents these types of places a lot.
I thought it was really interesting and enlightening that anyone could think about a restaurant this way - shows how little I know about the hospitality industry. I always pegged it to be going for different social classes sort of thing, but then I could never figure out why a burger and fries at a red robin is about the same as most steakhouses, and people were okay with that.
It definitely does make you feel like you don't need to impress anyone to be there - the real value that comes from making a place people feel socially relaxed is something I haven't thought much about.
I once went to the Ripley's Believe It or Not museum in Baltimore.
The exhibits were both amazing and ridiculous.
They had paintings of Bill and Hillary Clinton drawn in Hamburger grease. They had a giant picutre of Bill Gates, but when you got close, the "pixels" were different colored keyboard keys.
Was it "high art"? I think not. Was I entertained? yes.
and I have to say the whole article reminded me a little of this onion "article":
It’s not mean spirited, it’s tacky and tacky is amazingly comfortable because it invokes humor. The Pope room is hilarious even for Catholics because it is not mean spirited but a tacky but well meaning room. It’s comfortable and you know it’s not snooty so you can be at ease with their quite good service. Also, the portion size makes it family or group ordering at not a “I’ll have” place.
Many American chains can fit under this guise. As others have said: Cheesecake Factory, Panda Express, Taco Bell, but also McDonald's, Burger King, Wendy's, Pizza Hut, Domino's, In 'n' Out, Whataburger...none of them pretend to offer a haute dining experience.
Ones that I would argue don't want to be looked down upon (but are) are the likes of Olive Garden, Chili's, Applebees, Texas Roadhouse. They put on a facade of being fancy, but everyone knows most dishes served at these places were frozen and put in the microwave minutes before they are served. I could be wrong with the examples I gave though; it's been a long time since I've eaten out at any of them...
> What are some other examples of American restaurants that followed this playbook?
It's pretty common (perhaps dominant) with ethnic (or American regional, and some other strong themes) chains or single-location restaurants, because it promotes accessibility by making alien elements less off-putting. It's a way to make it so the restaurant doesn't seem to be looking down on the customers.
It arose organically before the restaurants adopted it, but Taco Bell and White Castle have both embraced their reputations as food for the chemically impaired. Almost every time* I've heard someone talk about either restaurant, they have a glee as if sliders or a gordita crunch are a form of debauchery.
*the exception is vegetarians who have a lot of completely earnest love for the bean burrito.
As someone who lives in Italy, a lot of what seems to be considered "Italian" in the US sometimes feels like little more than a caricature. It does trouble me slightly, because it feels like an impersonation of Italian culture.
On the other hand, it's probably just culture diverging and developing in different ways after migration, which is to be expected. So the problem is mostly one of identity: the same label - italian - means very different things to people across the world...
I'm grateful, as an American, that we have access to so many different cultures and cuisines. It's the one thing I missed sorely when I was travelling across Europe.
You're right on the label though, Italian American =/= Italian in the same vein that Chipotle/Taco Bell isn't Mexican. However, there are plenty of institutions in the states that do nail a more purist experience of Mexican or Italian or what have you.
Sure, but the article points out that Buca was emulating (or evoking or whatever) Italian-American, not Italian.
Maybe those things are conflated in places with no direct connections, but any Italian American with ties to Italy knows that the two are very distinct cultures.
As the son of Italian immigrants (who moved here 40 years ago), I've just learned to think of it as "Italian American" food/culture that evolved/diverged over the last 100 years. It's still painful to hear things like 'pasta fazul' or 'mozzarelle' being passed off as Italian.
Same can probably be said of any country's cuisine in America.
E.g. many staples of Chinese restaurants in America (General Tso's chicken, chop suey, sweet and sour whatever) are not found in China except at super touristy places.
Fun fact! Philip Roberts, who started Buca, sold it and started what is now one of the best steakhouses[0] in the country. It's the cash cow (no pun intended) for the other restaurants in his restaurant group Parasole, and is easily the highest-grossing restaurant in Minnesota.
They're "sperm-to-table" and a treat to dine with. I'm there too often.
Manny's is great, but in Minneapolis I'd honestly rather go to P.S. Steak or Burch Restaurant if I'm in the mood for a good steak. It may be just me though, as I don't enjoy the traditional steakhouse experience.
As an Italian-American, this explains why every time I go to a Buca di Beppo, I feel like I'm in some kind of merger between a mediocre Italian restaurant and a minstrel show. To those of us who grew up in this culture, it's ridiculous (almost bordering on offensive). Thankfully, I grew up in communities where the Italian's could proudly go to other restaurants that were more respectful of a 3,000 year old culture.
It's tough to feel proud of what Buca di Beppo has done to popularize Italian-American culture in the same way it's tough to feel proud of the movie The Godfather. We aren't all mobsters and we don't all have giant busts of the Pope and cherubs in our houses. Some of us are just computer scientists who like basil.
> To those of us who grew up in this culture, it's ridiculous (almost bordering on offensive).
Both of my parents are half Italian-American, and that's the tradition in which I was raised.
My relatives who actually came off the boat loved Buca di Beppo. And Olive Garden, etc. (Of course we all know it's not as good as home cooking, but who cares when you just want something fast.)
Honestly, Italian-Americans have no one to blame but ourselves for exalting gangster culture and caricatures. We love that stuff.
I could almost tolerate it, might even enjoy it sometimes, but eating there is just excruciating to me. For some reason they all seem to be optimized for loudness. Buca di Beppo really wants you to feel like you’re always surrounded by huge groups of people having comically loud conversations, but that’s one of the last things I want from a restaurant, or any public place really.
I'm glad I found someone that feels that same way. I used to walk by a BdB on my way to work and I couldn't help but notice the horribly stereotypical cartoon they use as their mascot.[0] My thought experiment for this image is: Imagine how this type of caricature looks like for pretty much any other genre of restaurant (Chinese food, sushi, burritos, etc). It's probably super offensive. To me, that's a good indicator that this caricature is offensive too.
tpolverini says>"Some of us are just computer scientists who like basil."
Well, you can open a restaurant named "Computer Scientists Who Like Basil" but I ain't gonna be one of your customers until I see lines queuing up!8-)
tpolverini says>"respectful"? "bordering on offensive"? "proud"? "it's tough to feel proud of the movie The Godfather", "I grew up in communities where the Italians could proudly go to other restaurants that were more respectful of a 3,000 year old culture."
Heck, that's nuthin'! I grew up in communities where you could proudly go to restaurants serving food that _was_ 3,000 years old, judging by the taste! I'll take Italian-American any day!
Jeez! Lighten up a little bit! The economy runs on entertainment. And if we can't laugh at each other and at ourselves then we're lost. That's the original and cheapest entertainment.
[Later: Hey! Hey! Why the downvote? You guys got no sense of humor? C'mon, help me out here, I'm dyin'!]
It's cultural appropriation, and it's understandable you feel it's silly or offensive. Part of what makes it uncomfortable is the appropriation of culture for little more than vapid monetary gain. Like you said, it's not contributing to Americans' understanding of Italian culture---if anything it's hurting it with silly stereotypes.
Interestingly, if someone was criticizing the appropriation of an indigenous or asian culture, there is little chance it would be this highly upvoted on HN. I think this is a worthwhile lesson for the community.
Back in the mid 90s my colleagues and I from the warm southern US found ourselves on the freezing winter streets of downtown Minneapolis after dark. We had brought coats but were still quite unprepared for 10 below zero F. As we wandered around looking for a place to eat, we spied a small well-lit door leading down to a basement. The waitress saw us, threw open the door, and said "You get in here. You're about to freeze to death!"
Whereupon we had one of the best and most welcoming meals I remember. That was my introduction to Buca di Beppo, and no matter what anyone says about it, I will always be fond of the place because it saved our lives that cold winter night.
It's amazing how much context, atmosphere, hunger, environment, etc affect our perception of food.
My most favorite and memorable meals ever were little, low quality places that I hate after coming back from long treks through the wilderness, or even the meals cooked while on those treks. As well as many places my wife and I ate on our honeymoon.
And I have been to a fair number of excellent restaurants including michellin starred ones.
It seems unlikely that those places were actually that good (probably the same as your buccas experience). And I have returned to some of them under different circumstances and not found them particularly amazing.
I think I enjoyed the 'tacky' decor of the restaurants after visiting Italy and Rome specifically. Each restaurant, is incredibly unique, amazing to hear the story behind it.
[+] [-] apo|7 years ago|reply
>
> He wanted the decor to be tacky, the portions to be enormous, the atmosphere to be boisterous. He figured it didn’t matter that he wasn’t Italian in the slightest. There were also almost no red sauce joints in Minneapolis at the time, so diners wouldn’t have anything to compare it to. This was a restaurant, he says, “that was intentionally in bad taste, but good-natured bad taste.” The kind of place where the average diner could feel superior, and not feel bad about being puzzled over a wine list, or not knowing what kind of fork is used for a salad.
The concept of a restaurant that people "look down on" seems both bold and mean-spirited. It also vaguely reminds me of an article I read about the Old Spaghetti Factory.
What are some other examples of American restaurants that followed this playbook?
[+] [-] _red|7 years ago|reply
"Dive bars" have always been popular.
A friend of mine in college opened a dive bar, which quickly became very very popular. This was the type of place where you could smell the ammonia from the urinal when you walked in the door. Spending more than an hour in there, and you left smelling like cigarette smoke and stale beer.
When opening his 2nd bar, he made the rookie mistake of "trying to finally do it right". His new bar was walking distance from the original, and had a beautiful wood bar, leather chairs, fancy plate glass windows with frosted lettering, etc (top notch plumbing too).
His 2nd bar never caught on and he eventually had to close.
The importance of "dive's" is that everyone feels comfortable. You feel you can do no wrong. Spill your beer...so what. Whereas if the place it too fancy, everyone becomes too self-aware.
These types of places like BdB aren't about customers "looking down" on the place, its about being in a place thats comfortable and where the average joe doesn't feel looked down upon.
[+] [-] cowmoo728|7 years ago|reply
https://www.barstoolsports.com/barstoolu/dude-goes-viral-for...
[+] [-] larrydag|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] taurath|7 years ago|reply
It definitely does make you feel like you don't need to impress anyone to be there - the real value that comes from making a place people feel socially relaxed is something I haven't thought much about.
[+] [-] djcapelis|7 years ago|reply
I would argue Panda Express is spiritually similar in some ways.
[+] [-] m463|7 years ago|reply
The exhibits were both amazing and ridiculous.
They had paintings of Bill and Hillary Clinton drawn in Hamburger grease. They had a giant picutre of Bill Gates, but when you got close, the "pixels" were different colored keyboard keys.
Was it "high art"? I think not. Was I entertained? yes.
and I have to say the whole article reminded me a little of this onion "article":
https://www.theonion.com/european-men-are-so-much-more-roman...
(sorry)
[+] [-] hbosch|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] saikit|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] protomyth|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sailfast|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Dirlewanger|7 years ago|reply
Ones that I would argue don't want to be looked down upon (but are) are the likes of Olive Garden, Chili's, Applebees, Texas Roadhouse. They put on a facade of being fancy, but everyone knows most dishes served at these places were frozen and put in the microwave minutes before they are served. I could be wrong with the examples I gave though; it's been a long time since I've eaten out at any of them...
[+] [-] dragonwriter|7 years ago|reply
It's pretty common (perhaps dominant) with ethnic (or American regional, and some other strong themes) chains or single-location restaurants, because it promotes accessibility by making alien elements less off-putting. It's a way to make it so the restaurant doesn't seem to be looking down on the customers.
[+] [-] kevinmchugh|7 years ago|reply
*the exception is vegetarians who have a lot of completely earnest love for the bean burrito.
[+] [-] noer|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Konryan|7 years ago|reply
On the other hand, it's probably just culture diverging and developing in different ways after migration, which is to be expected. So the problem is mostly one of identity: the same label - italian - means very different things to people across the world...
[+] [-] tranced|7 years ago|reply
You're right on the label though, Italian American =/= Italian in the same vein that Chipotle/Taco Bell isn't Mexican. However, there are plenty of institutions in the states that do nail a more purist experience of Mexican or Italian or what have you.
[+] [-] ibejoeb|7 years ago|reply
Maybe those things are conflated in places with no direct connections, but any Italian American with ties to Italy knows that the two are very distinct cultures.
[+] [-] GiorgioG|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] United857|7 years ago|reply
E.g. many staples of Chinese restaurants in America (General Tso's chicken, chop suey, sweet and sour whatever) are not found in China except at super touristy places.
[+] [-] joshmn|7 years ago|reply
They're "sperm-to-table" and a treat to dine with. I'm there too often.
[0] https://www.mensjournal.com/food-drink/10-best-steakhouses-i...
[+] [-] strictnein|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] giardini|7 years ago|reply
May be, but lost my appetite with that "sperm-to-table" thing there!8-)) Not quite the same as caviar!
[+] [-] bpolverini|7 years ago|reply
It's tough to feel proud of what Buca di Beppo has done to popularize Italian-American culture in the same way it's tough to feel proud of the movie The Godfather. We aren't all mobsters and we don't all have giant busts of the Pope and cherubs in our houses. Some of us are just computer scientists who like basil.
[+] [-] brandonmenc|7 years ago|reply
Both of my parents are half Italian-American, and that's the tradition in which I was raised.
My relatives who actually came off the boat loved Buca di Beppo. And Olive Garden, etc. (Of course we all know it's not as good as home cooking, but who cares when you just want something fast.)
Honestly, Italian-Americans have no one to blame but ourselves for exalting gangster culture and caricatures. We love that stuff.
[+] [-] mwfunk|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tschwimmer|7 years ago|reply
[0] https://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/06/d7/fd/30/...
[+] [-] hopler|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] giardini|7 years ago|reply
Well, you can open a restaurant named "Computer Scientists Who Like Basil" but I ain't gonna be one of your customers until I see lines queuing up!8-)
tpolverini says>"respectful"? "bordering on offensive"? "proud"? "it's tough to feel proud of the movie The Godfather", "I grew up in communities where the Italians could proudly go to other restaurants that were more respectful of a 3,000 year old culture."
Heck, that's nuthin'! I grew up in communities where you could proudly go to restaurants serving food that _was_ 3,000 years old, judging by the taste! I'll take Italian-American any day!
Jeez! Lighten up a little bit! The economy runs on entertainment. And if we can't laugh at each other and at ourselves then we're lost. That's the original and cheapest entertainment.
[Later: Hey! Hey! Why the downvote? You guys got no sense of humor? C'mon, help me out here, I'm dyin'!]
[+] [-] kjdndisneinj|7 years ago|reply
Interestingly, if someone was criticizing the appropriation of an indigenous or asian culture, there is little chance it would be this highly upvoted on HN. I think this is a worthwhile lesson for the community.
[+] [-] dreamcompiler|7 years ago|reply
Whereupon we had one of the best and most welcoming meals I remember. That was my introduction to Buca di Beppo, and no matter what anyone says about it, I will always be fond of the place because it saved our lives that cold winter night.
[+] [-] jjeaff|7 years ago|reply
My most favorite and memorable meals ever were little, low quality places that I hate after coming back from long treks through the wilderness, or even the meals cooked while on those treks. As well as many places my wife and I ate on our honeymoon.
And I have been to a fair number of excellent restaurants including michellin starred ones.
It seems unlikely that those places were actually that good (probably the same as your buccas experience). And I have returned to some of them under different circumstances and not found them particularly amazing.
[+] [-] exabrial|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] thanatropism|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sperm-to-table|7 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] wtffffffff|7 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] evolvedcleaning|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] detaro|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] PorterDuff|7 years ago|reply
I'll pass thanks.