Over the past few months I've been studying mushin (no mind) with the goal of understanding the concept better, and possibly laying out proactive steps one can take to put themselves in a position to experience mushin. I'm about 70% through all the readings (Unfettered Mind, Zen in the Art of Archery, Kakusei-Mushin, some Alan Watts videos on the subject, some Zen Koan videos, and more).
So far, it's very evident that the feeling of being in a "flow state" or "just doing it" is not something that simply happens out of nowhere. A precursor to that mind state is rigorous training and practice. Zen in the Art of Archery is a great read for getting a grasp on this concept. Basically, your goal is to perform without any thought, having a clear mind without any judgments or intentions, to the point in which you become one with the action/goal (anyone who has played sports may have experienced those games in which you almost black out during a great scoring streak, not even recognizing what's happening in the moment). BUT, to get to that point, you need to learn all the proper movements and formations and build muscle memory, which requires a ton of intentional thought and analysis. Basically, you need to learn as a stepping stone to unlearning.
The flow state of great athletes is not the type of autopilot you describe exactly, it’s not a totally automatic function. If you look at their comments it’s actually a state of hyperfocus. They may get there in a similar way to what you describe but the space they go to looks different than what you’re describing. “The rim gets bigger” if you will. The game slows down and becomes easier. They’re so in the moment that everything narrows, yes, but it’s that that makes decisions easier, the information they need is simply hyper available. Ask someone like Tiger Woods where the pin was or what the wind was doing on the 12th hole on a specific course during a win 15 years ago and he can tell you that. He can also tell you where contact was on the club face. Same goes for LeBron and others. It’s not that decisions are made by your body or muscle memory etc it’s that the decisions you need to make become easier to make.
I used to do kendo, which has a big focus on mushin.
> BUT, to get to that point, you need to learn all the proper movements and formations and build muscle memory, which requires a ton of intentional thought and analysis.
This is exactly it. You need a lot of practice ("perfect practice makes perfect") to lay a foundation where everything you do can be done well and properly even when done unconsciously. My personal theory is that once you have your fundamentals embedded at an unconscious level, it becomes simpler to enter a flow state (mushin) because there are fewer extraneous thoughts bothering you while you consciously focus on a task -- all of the little pieces of the task are "unconscious" and you don't have to worry about doing them properly, so then you can progress to embedding the next level of fundamentals.
I black out very often when doing something repetitive when I used to drive during my commute I often blacked out for the entire commute and wake up after parking (The first time was quite scary). It also happens when cooking, running, walking, anything that doesn't require to think about something new if it's something I have already done in the past I can do it without thinking at all.
I'm glad you made this comment. The article's author made wu-wei sound like "do whatever comes natural". But, that misses the thousands of hours of deliberate practice bringing you to wu-wei.
25 years ago I thru-hiked the Appalachian Trail, and hikers there have a saying, "It takes more head than heel". I didn't believe it at first, until I met several thru-hikers over the age of 60, hiking 15+ miles a day, carrying 50+ pounds of gear, up and down over a trail designed intentionally to go valley to summit to valley to summit.
After a few weeks, I noticed that I was no longer looking at the ground. At least, not the ground right in front of my feet. My mind was able to see the terrain several yards ahead, and subconsciously my feet would know where the rocks are. This became an essential skill upon entering Pennsylvania, where the AT is more boulder field than trail. I started to call it "Radar feet".
Edit: it was 25 years ago... sheesh my memory. About two years before I heard about an obscure programming language called Python...
The featured runner's (Yuki Kawauchi) highest profile victory was the 2018 Boston Marathon. He and his agent put together an excellent strategy to take advantage of the horrible conditions to nullify his much faster opponents.
Very compelling article, and a strong counter to the idea that the no-mind state is void of intelligence. If anything, the mind of the master is more active than ever, but so thoroughly focused on execution that the meta-level has disappeard. There's no thinking about the thought process, no second guessing, none of the games the mind plays with itself. Only engagement with action so deep that one feels like "the hand of fate."
After reading about half of this article, I have two major thoughts:
1. It's interesting that a Japanese scientist would hypothesize that a high-performing athlete would be considered an "intellectual", since the Japanese word for "genius" can describe highly talented athletes as well as intelligent nerds. Sapir–Whorf in action?
2. I've seen strong evidence that "overthinking" athletic performance is negative; taking brainpower away from the subconscious and placing it in the frontal lobe is empirically proven to cause basketball players to miss shots and hurdlers to trip and fall.
Over thinking, or even just thinking before I learn with my body has always given me problems with physical activity, because I tend to create a bad mental model that I have to unlearn. This has slowed me down the most trying to learn how to fly gliders, and skiing.
One thing I've noticed is that people like myself explain physical activities with words, while people who don't have this issue explain by moving their hands and bodies.
So, someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but the very premise of motor skill coordination resides in the cerebellum, and is not cerebral.
This means that training muscle memory for autopilot and cruise control is about conditioning the cerebellum with training. In addition to other involuntary actions like sneezing reflexes, smooth muscle peristalisis and heart/lung functions, other voluntary functions like touch typing, hand writing and walking up and down stairs, walking in general, riding a bike, swimming the doggy paddle and all the other aspects of memorized, or repetitive movement, both fine and gross, get recorded into the cerebellum, in both the short term and for the long term.
This is why people can be born without one, but it's a severe impairment. I could be slightly wrong in how I'm relating the principles here, but I think that just about sums it up.
In response to 2, the article is talking about (and conflating somewhat) different types of thinking, not just actively thinking about movement in the moment of execution.
I can pick out at least three types:
- Planning training schedules;
- Self-teaching whilst practicing;
- Thinking on one's feet during actual performance.
This echos my own experience over past couple of months. Deliberate intellectual approach and introspection. I improved a lot when I started doing that. However, when I try to talk about it with my friends and trainers, they dismiss it. I don't expect them to have the answers, but they're not particularly willing to engage in conversation either. They don't understand what I'm talking about. The advice I always get "this is different, you have to feel it". Repeat repeat repeat until you get it. That never worked for me. Or rather, I work hard but the benefits are slim. I feel like I've been getting 30% gains from the training while I could be getting 80%.
This reminds me of the book Peak by Anders Erricsson who observed that the right kind of practice carried out over a sufficient period of time can lead to extraordinary improvement.
Interestingly, it seems to work for both physical and mental abilities and importantly at any age (although some abilities are easier to develop at a young age)
The kind of practice is critical -- he calls it "deliberate practice" -- a focused practice that is at the limit of one's abilities and by pushing near the limit, it eventually becomes the new norm and a new limit is developed further beyond.
By continuously iterating on this process, people have been able to develop skills previously unheard of. Fascinating book, thoroughly recommend it.
Another runner - marathon world record holder - Eliud Kipchoge.
“If you want to break through, your mind should be able to control your body,” he said. “Your mind should be a part of your fitness.”
As I see it - you have to believe yourself unconditionally.
I’m currently reading Josh Waitzkin’s The Art of Learning and I think this question of thinking, intuition, practice and flow and putting it all together is explored there at a great length, can totally recommend it if you’re interested in the topic.
Does this book explore what does it mean to think? This is a topic that I'm interested right now. It became clear to me that the way I think is different than a lot of people do. Most people seem to be the intuitive type. So how does a thought appear in your head? How do you link thoughts together and make a decision? One mental process will be good for training, another for coding. If one were able to articulate the process and describe the state of mind then maybe we can learn better.
The author describes two school of thoughts on how athletes should perform: the first encourage conscious thinking about their action, while a second encourages the unconscious, flow-like practice. I think the answer lies in between.
One way to look at the problem is through Kahneman's system 1 and system 2 dualism: Some tasks are better done with system 1; the fast, instinctive, unconscious mode of thinking. An example would be optimizing your oxygen consumption while running or hitting a topspin forehand in Tennis. Other tasks, like planning your running strategy are better done by System 2, the slower, deliberative mode of thinking. The trick for performing is to use the right system for the right problem.
Personally, I experience this in two very different fields: Tennis and coding. In tennis, whenever I start thinking two much about my strokes, trying to consciously change them, the strokes' quality deteriorate. Similarly, whenever I play a match and lose myself in the zone while forgetting to consciously think about my strategy, about the deficits of my partner and myself, I start losing. Switching back and forth between these two modes is where I reach my potential. The same applies in coding. To work best, I need both the flow, but with pauses here and there to consciously think about the big picture.
To maybe make this more relatable, think about typing. How much do you type? How much do you think about it? Do you use your right thumb on the spacebar, the left thumb, or both? Why do you do it that way? Do you think you could type faster if you changed that?
It's these last questions that drive excellence in physical technique. Picking out tiny details in how we do things, then starting by consciously adjusting our technique, until it becomes unconscious.
I am not sure I agree with all of what the author states here.
The "self-learning" is what I do myself when I train in martial arts, with computer programming, and with any number of skills. I had my start with a martial art teacher for a few years, and now, I am going through a long stint of solo practice, as I completely rebuild how my body moves. My programming skills were self-taught.
However, wu-wei is not simply "just do it". There is a kind of natural, effortless, spontaneity that meditators, psychonauts, and others who have peak experiences might tap into from time to time. Even "just do it" has a subtle kind of interfering.
The thing is, it's the "self-learning" that eventually bears fruit when someone enters wu-wei, as it pertains to skill. The deliberate effort at self-learning and cultivation greatly expands the possible actions one can take when one stops interfering with themselves.
Interesting article. I kept reading hoping it would get to a strong conclusion or some clear definition, but just like athletes can't explain it, its conclusion was vague and all over the place.
Interesting read, but kinda sad that the runner in question was not interviewed for this piece. I think the points made are kinda vague and lack good examples to make a stronger case for this thesis.
They [the runners] are suffused with the Daoist ideal of wu-wei that sees effortlessness as the epitome of human action
I found Edward Slingerland’s “Trying Not to Try” very interesting in terms of making connections between classical Chinese philosophy and contemporary US/western thought about neuroscience.
[+] [-] DisruptiveDave|7 years ago|reply
So far, it's very evident that the feeling of being in a "flow state" or "just doing it" is not something that simply happens out of nowhere. A precursor to that mind state is rigorous training and practice. Zen in the Art of Archery is a great read for getting a grasp on this concept. Basically, your goal is to perform without any thought, having a clear mind without any judgments or intentions, to the point in which you become one with the action/goal (anyone who has played sports may have experienced those games in which you almost black out during a great scoring streak, not even recognizing what's happening in the moment). BUT, to get to that point, you need to learn all the proper movements and formations and build muscle memory, which requires a ton of intentional thought and analysis. Basically, you need to learn as a stepping stone to unlearning.
[+] [-] brm|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sdrothrock|7 years ago|reply
> BUT, to get to that point, you need to learn all the proper movements and formations and build muscle memory, which requires a ton of intentional thought and analysis.
This is exactly it. You need a lot of practice ("perfect practice makes perfect") to lay a foundation where everything you do can be done well and properly even when done unconsciously. My personal theory is that once you have your fundamentals embedded at an unconscious level, it becomes simpler to enter a flow state (mushin) because there are fewer extraneous thoughts bothering you while you consciously focus on a task -- all of the little pieces of the task are "unconscious" and you don't have to worry about doing them properly, so then you can progress to embedding the next level of fundamentals.
[+] [-] tiku|7 years ago|reply
He claims that Flow is (more easily) achieved when Skill level and Challenge level are both very high.
[+] [-] maury91|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bpyne|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rogual|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] theseadroid|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] michelpp|7 years ago|reply
After a few weeks, I noticed that I was no longer looking at the ground. At least, not the ground right in front of my feet. My mind was able to see the terrain several yards ahead, and subconsciously my feet would know where the rocks are. This became an essential skill upon entering Pennsylvania, where the AT is more boulder field than trail. I started to call it "Radar feet".
Edit: it was 25 years ago... sheesh my memory. About two years before I heard about an obscure programming language called Python...
[+] [-] pavedwalden|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] DrOctagon|7 years ago|reply
Great read on this here: http://japanrunningnews.blogspot.com/2018/04/how-it-happened...
[+] [-] sevensor|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] silverstrike|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ddxxdd|7 years ago|reply
1. It's interesting that a Japanese scientist would hypothesize that a high-performing athlete would be considered an "intellectual", since the Japanese word for "genius" can describe highly talented athletes as well as intelligent nerds. Sapir–Whorf in action?
2. I've seen strong evidence that "overthinking" athletic performance is negative; taking brainpower away from the subconscious and placing it in the frontal lobe is empirically proven to cause basketball players to miss shots and hurdlers to trip and fall.
[+] [-] dorfsmay|7 years ago|reply
One thing I've noticed is that people like myself explain physical activities with words, while people who don't have this issue explain by moving their hands and bodies.
[+] [-] cerebellums|7 years ago|reply
This means that training muscle memory for autopilot and cruise control is about conditioning the cerebellum with training. In addition to other involuntary actions like sneezing reflexes, smooth muscle peristalisis and heart/lung functions, other voluntary functions like touch typing, hand writing and walking up and down stairs, walking in general, riding a bike, swimming the doggy paddle and all the other aspects of memorized, or repetitive movement, both fine and gross, get recorded into the cerebellum, in both the short term and for the long term.
This is why people can be born without one, but it's a severe impairment. I could be slightly wrong in how I'm relating the principles here, but I think that just about sums it up.
[+] [-] n4r9|7 years ago|reply
I can pick out at least three types:
- Planning training schedules;
- Self-teaching whilst practicing;
- Thinking on one's feet during actual performance.
[+] [-] GreaterFool|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mmta|7 years ago|reply
Interestingly, it seems to work for both physical and mental abilities and importantly at any age (although some abilities are easier to develop at a young age)
The kind of practice is critical -- he calls it "deliberate practice" -- a focused practice that is at the limit of one's abilities and by pushing near the limit, it eventually becomes the new norm and a new limit is developed further beyond.
By continuously iterating on this process, people have been able to develop skills previously unheard of. Fascinating book, thoroughly recommend it.
[+] [-] jvln|7 years ago|reply
https://www.runnersworld.com/news/a27225884/kipchoge-is-read...
[+] [-] unkulunkulu|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] GreaterFool|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] agumonkey|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] resiros|7 years ago|reply
One way to look at the problem is through Kahneman's system 1 and system 2 dualism: Some tasks are better done with system 1; the fast, instinctive, unconscious mode of thinking. An example would be optimizing your oxygen consumption while running or hitting a topspin forehand in Tennis. Other tasks, like planning your running strategy are better done by System 2, the slower, deliberative mode of thinking. The trick for performing is to use the right system for the right problem.
Personally, I experience this in two very different fields: Tennis and coding. In tennis, whenever I start thinking two much about my strokes, trying to consciously change them, the strokes' quality deteriorate. Similarly, whenever I play a match and lose myself in the zone while forgetting to consciously think about my strategy, about the deficits of my partner and myself, I start losing. Switching back and forth between these two modes is where I reach my potential. The same applies in coding. To work best, I need both the flow, but with pauses here and there to consciously think about the big picture.
[+] [-] beat|7 years ago|reply
It's these last questions that drive excellence in physical technique. Picking out tiny details in how we do things, then starting by consciously adjusting our technique, until it becomes unconscious.
[+] [-] hosh|7 years ago|reply
The "self-learning" is what I do myself when I train in martial arts, with computer programming, and with any number of skills. I had my start with a martial art teacher for a few years, and now, I am going through a long stint of solo practice, as I completely rebuild how my body moves. My programming skills were self-taught.
However, wu-wei is not simply "just do it". There is a kind of natural, effortless, spontaneity that meditators, psychonauts, and others who have peak experiences might tap into from time to time. Even "just do it" has a subtle kind of interfering.
The thing is, it's the "self-learning" that eventually bears fruit when someone enters wu-wei, as it pertains to skill. The deliberate effort at self-learning and cultivation greatly expands the possible actions one can take when one stops interfering with themselves.
[+] [-] keyle|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] asar|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] adolph|7 years ago|reply
I found Edward Slingerland’s “Trying Not to Try” very interesting in terms of making connections between classical Chinese philosophy and contemporary US/western thought about neuroscience.
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/18050134-trying-not-to-t...
[+] [-] laughingman2|7 years ago|reply
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXQPL9GooyI&app=desktop
Kenneth leads the AI research in Uber. He had worked on Evolutionary strategies for machine learning, artificial Life etc.
[+] [-] unknown|7 years ago|reply
[deleted]