Reclining, though, is a silly feature on coach airline seats. At best, you temporarily get more room at the expense of the person behind you. Until the person in front of you reclines. Reclining seats when the seat pitch is so tight is just dumb.
WRT reclining, I disagree. The seats need to be upright enough so that emergency egress is easy, but that runs contrary to what is comfortable for many people. I don't need much recline, but allowing the seat to move back an inch or two (as measured at the top) makes a huge difference in posture.
If you ever do a long haul flight in economy (which I assume you haven't) you will realize the obvious purpose of reclining coach seats: to allow people a fighting chance of remaining asleep instead of being constantly awakened by their falling heads.
For short flights, I do not mind the development of "standing seats." Airline margins will remain razor thin and the savings will be passed to the subset of customers who choose to be more cramped. There WILL continue to be "premium economy" or similar for those who choose it, that is undoubtable.
If the price sensitivity tradeoff of customers ultimately dictates that these standing seats do not gain adoption, I would not be surprised.
History has shown that customers want cheap flights more than they want comfort, but complaining all the while.
I don't believe that "customers want cheap flights more than they want comfort".
Really customers have about as much choice in the comfort of a flight as they do in the cost of health care services.
For years it has been "pay 4 times as much as economy or suffer", in the last ten years they've introduced "basic economy" which at least is realistic.
I might rather fly in a widebody on a domestic flight but I don't get the choice. One reason you hate to fly is that you hate to fly in a 737 (or A320) and you never get to fly in anything else so you just don't know it could be better (at a lower cost per seat mile!) in an A220 or E195.
>For short flights, I do not mind the development of "standing seats."
There are always those customers who would be willing to sit in the luggage hold or lay in the overhead bin or hang onto the wing to save $10.
But these new seating choices remind me of my train travel through Poland in the late 70's on my way to the USSR. I bought a first class ticket to Ukraine from Warsaw and when it pulled into the station there were people climbing through windows while folks used the doors to exit. By the time I got to my 1st class cabin there were about 15 people in there (seating for 6 comfortably). I had to stand in the aisle for about 8 hours overnight hanging on. Good Times...Good Times....LOL...
We need hyperloop to work and national high speed rail to offer alternatives and competition. I do a 2 hour flight, about 1000 miles for work once or twice a quarter, I’d seriously consider a 4-6 hour train ride if the experience was better. Rather than paying extra to carry my bag on, I wouldn’t mind paying extra for a proper meal and some comfortable work space. And if they streamlined the security process the time difference would be that much smaller.
That’ll be fun when you spend 3 hours on the tarmac before your “short haul” flight due to airport congestion or weather conditions.
Edited to add: what about people with disabilities? Can elderly people no longer fly? Or even if they have a few sitting seats to comply with disability regulations, what happens if you sprain your ankle at some point between booking your flight and boarding?
Having been recently "traped" insinde a plane at the gate for nearly 3 hours, that is my main concern. Personaly i would have no problem with such a standing seat for short 30-60min flights if boarding and deboarding plane-to-gate process is <15min.
Rubbish. This type of "news" is cheap brand name advertising by low cost airlines. The 5-pound toilet from European Ryanair was a similar campaign.
Though news coverage may appear negative, it is aligned with the impression of the brand as "low cost" and therefore strengthens the brand.
That’s interesting. I never thought about that. Any idea on the effectiveness of doing this? It just seems dicey to me with quite a lot of risk with minimal benefit. I’d rather pet a rabid raccoon than be the PR manager that pulls this stunt. But I do see your point and if done well... yea, just say you found better ways of being lower cost and everyone forgets this ever happened.
Some of us barely fit into a jet cabin at all now! Anything over maybe 5'10" and you have to duck. I'm 6'4". Imagine standing for an hour with your neck torqued because the headroom is too little.
In addition the new Delta legroom of 23" (including the depth of the seat!) will make it impossible for me to sit down. My knee is 25" from the seat (I just measured it). With existing 29" 'seat pitch' cabins, I have to splay my legs or sit sideways.
Yeah, I always argue that planes are just buses with wings for me and I don't understand the whole 'seat size thing'.
But I'm 5'10 with a healthy BMI. It's interesting that the airlines have effectively made height a disability, and what sort of responsibilities airlines have towards making their flights accessible.
I would want to try sitting in one sometime. Airlines might have a better time trying to push the idea if they can get mockups built that can be installed in terminals at major airlines. If it's actually not that bad, let people test it out. It looks terrible but so is sitting in a cramped airline chair with your knees jammed into the seatback. If the vertical seat at least gave the illusion of more room in the sense that you aren't physically pressed up against anything, it might feel more comfortable. Another issue with the vertical seats is that everyone is a different height and therefore a different inseam length, how do you accommodate shorter people and children while also fitting tall people in? Having the saddle/seat being able to move up and down like an office chair would help.
You are talking about the "hidden comfort" of such a system. Ask yourself this, where else do you see such a configuration where there isn't a profit motive? Do people eat dinner in such a configuration? Do their living rooms have vertical seats? What about movie theaters, stadiums and classrooms?
Airlines are having near-record profits now. I have a hard time believing there isn't some implicit or explicit collusion going on with US carriers. Not only are seats ever-more cramped and the fees ever greater, but pilot benefits have been massively slashed at many airlines as well. The series of mergers we have had have made things worse, I think.
This is my suspicion, as well. I don't buy the complaints about thin margins driving these decisions. The main innovation of airlines appears to be exactly how much misery people will put up with and still buy a ticket.
Am I the only one who thinks standing for shorter flights of < 3 hours would be healthier and more comfortable? I work regularly at a standing desk, sitting for too long makes me feel lethargic and often causes headaches for me (it's much easier to have good posture, neck and back alignment when standing). For longer flights, people need a seat, but for shorter flights I would gladly pay the same price to be able to stand instead.
This concept has been doing the rounds for a long time. I can't believe that any airline would be seriously considering it. Ryanair will occasionally drop a hint that they're looking into it when they're desperate for some free publicity, but that's about it.
This makes no sense to me. Airlines are adding another option that is cheaper. How is that a bad thing? If I don't want the cheaper option, another airline will offer me a more comfortable one and I'll pay for it. What is there to be upset about here?
So is there, then, a market for an airline that offers substantially more legroom and larger seats (biz-class-size for the entire plane?) for a slight increase in price?
Aforementioned Delta Airlines had $1.3bn in PROFITS last year, so not sure about razor-thin margins.
I don't believe they have actually flown a single flight yet but supposedly https://www.zedaerospace.com/ will be flying it's first routes sometime this year. They're claiming first class seating for all passengers on all flights. Prices look not unreasonably low if they actually deliver what they're claiming but they're also selling $100/month subscriptions that get you cheaper flights and...I'm not sure what else.
It's been tried. Doesn't seem to work. Too many people pick flights on the basis of cost. British Air does have business class only between JFK and London City airport but that's obviously not a very representative pair of cities and is, I assume, standard business class pricing (i.e. multiples of coach).
I've never seen it, but I've long thought it would be interesting to see an airline campaign on such a feature. The problem now is that cattle class is cheap, and the next step up is a small increment in comfort but twice the cost.
I'm sure there's going to be some sort of language at ticket purchase that you will be liable for any problems because you chose to stand the whole time. Or, if the flight maybe they offer you the option to purchase an upgrade to one of the unbooked chairs.
If anything, the advent of low cost airlines shows we haven't yet hit the cost/comfort sweetspot and that air travel is still too expensive and comfortable (at least at the <4 hours category).
Currently flights effectively have no room left anymore -- I have absolutely no idea why the seats on short-haul flights have the ability to recline. It's impossible to use a 15 inch laptop if the person in front of you moves their seat back.
If Delta removes that ability, I'll start flying with them exclusively. Have back problems? Feel free to pay more to sit in first/economy plus/whatever.
I'd obviously also support regulation for minimum seat space sizes, but that will never happen in America.
In most planes people cannot move their chair back when I sit behind them; my legs block them from doing so and that makes them angry often. So agreed; prevent the recline on short flights.
For long haul economy I often cannot sit normally and usually they put me somewhere better except if it is a very full flight. Then it is absolute suffering. My last 10 hr flight was in a seat that was cramped against some divider screen and because of that the table was much smaller and I could physically not unfold it so it was impossible to eat or drink without spilling and it was too cramped to sleep. The staff absolutely did not care. It is bad news if you have to fly long haul on a budget...
>Have back problems? Feel free to pay more to sit in first/economy plus/whatever.
This line of thinking deserves reflection. Too fat/tall/disabled/female†? Pay more for this condition you probably didn't choose and can't easily "remedy." And if you're lucky enough to not need "extras" to achieve baseline dignity and comfort, you'll certainly have family members who do.
This would have to be coupled with a reduction in carry on luggage size. Overhead compartments are already frequently full with the current number of passengers in economy cabins.
People want cheap flights. Some people want more comfortable flights and are willing to pay.
I fly about 3 times a year domestically in the United States and Delta, American, and United all have a "Comfort or Economy Plus" section with extra legroom. It costs between $50-200 per flight extra but also includes boarding right after first class before everyone else.
For me it is totally worth it. I don't need first class treatment but at my height the extra legroom is absolutely worth the price.
I'm not sure how that's going to work a single person not of the average height, are they saying tall people have to just stand without support and short people get ass-stabbed by the seat?
[+] [-] tyingq|7 years ago|reply
Reclining, though, is a silly feature on coach airline seats. At best, you temporarily get more room at the expense of the person behind you. Until the person in front of you reclines. Reclining seats when the seat pitch is so tight is just dumb.
Oh, and if you get the paywall: http://archive.is/vqTNf
[+] [-] rootusrootus|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gomox|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] CompelTechnic|7 years ago|reply
If the price sensitivity tradeoff of customers ultimately dictates that these standing seats do not gain adoption, I would not be surprised.
History has shown that customers want cheap flights more than they want comfort, but complaining all the while.
[+] [-] PaulHoule|7 years ago|reply
Really customers have about as much choice in the comfort of a flight as they do in the cost of health care services.
For years it has been "pay 4 times as much as economy or suffer", in the last ten years they've introduced "basic economy" which at least is realistic.
I might rather fly in a widebody on a domestic flight but I don't get the choice. One reason you hate to fly is that you hate to fly in a 737 (or A320) and you never get to fly in anything else so you just don't know it could be better (at a lower cost per seat mile!) in an A220 or E195.
[+] [-] hourislate|7 years ago|reply
There are always those customers who would be willing to sit in the luggage hold or lay in the overhead bin or hang onto the wing to save $10.
But these new seating choices remind me of my train travel through Poland in the late 70's on my way to the USSR. I bought a first class ticket to Ukraine from Warsaw and when it pulled into the station there were people climbing through windows while folks used the doors to exit. By the time I got to my 1st class cabin there were about 15 people in there (seating for 6 comfortably). I had to stand in the aisle for about 8 hours overnight hanging on. Good Times...Good Times....LOL...
[+] [-] TheCondor|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] brotoss|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ataturk|7 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] cimmanom|7 years ago|reply
Edited to add: what about people with disabilities? Can elderly people no longer fly? Or even if they have a few sitting seats to comply with disability regulations, what happens if you sprain your ankle at some point between booking your flight and boarding?
[+] [-] sparkling|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mikybee93|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] draugadrotten|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] corodra|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] namdnay|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] JoeAltmaier|7 years ago|reply
In addition the new Delta legroom of 23" (including the depth of the seat!) will make it impossible for me to sit down. My knee is 25" from the seat (I just measured it). With existing 29" 'seat pitch' cabins, I have to splay my legs or sit sideways.
I guess it'll be the train for me.
[+] [-] matthewaveryusa|7 years ago|reply
But I'm 5'10 with a healthy BMI. It's interesting that the airlines have effectively made height a disability, and what sort of responsibilities airlines have towards making their flights accessible.
[+] [-] swarnie_|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] moftz|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] x86_64Ubuntu|7 years ago|reply
Of course you don't.
[+] [-] lenticular|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] overthemoon|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mrerrormessage|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mhluongo|7 years ago|reply
Movement rather than standing or sitting still is the way to go.
[+] [-] MiddleEndian|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rootusrootus|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rfreytag|7 years ago|reply
Add in a tiny crisis or delays and the close space could cause unexpected mob behaviors.
Also, how would you pick up something if you dropped it; or eat?
The free-air to passenger ratio would diminish making body odors could get much more intense. Unexpected delays anyone?
[+] [-] SmellyGeekBoy|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] NikolaeVarius|7 years ago|reply
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vertical_seat
[+] [-] mikybee93|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] slater|7 years ago|reply
Aforementioned Delta Airlines had $1.3bn in PROFITS last year, so not sure about razor-thin margins.
[+] [-] kamarg|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Someone1234|7 years ago|reply
Meaning all they'll see is "Ultracheap: $50" Vs. "ComfortAir: $80" and pick the $50 option because that's all the information they're given.
You want to sell a nicer class of service, you need to change the entire industry to communicate it.
[+] [-] ghaff|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rootusrootus|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] forinti|7 years ago|reply
If you have a bad knee, you might not be able to bend it. If you are old and have a bad back you might not be able to stay in a such a seat for long.
This is going to cause trouble.
[+] [-] moate|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] flyinglizard|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rhexs|7 years ago|reply
If Delta removes that ability, I'll start flying with them exclusively. Have back problems? Feel free to pay more to sit in first/economy plus/whatever.
I'd obviously also support regulation for minimum seat space sizes, but that will never happen in America.
[+] [-] tluyben2|7 years ago|reply
For long haul economy I often cannot sit normally and usually they put me somewhere better except if it is a very full flight. Then it is absolute suffering. My last 10 hr flight was in a seat that was cramped against some divider screen and because of that the table was much smaller and I could physically not unfold it so it was impossible to eat or drink without spilling and it was too cramped to sleep. The staff absolutely did not care. It is bad news if you have to fly long haul on a budget...
[+] [-] mLuby|7 years ago|reply
This line of thinking deserves reflection. Too fat/tall/disabled/female†? Pay more for this condition you probably didn't choose and can't easily "remedy." And if you're lucky enough to not need "extras" to achieve baseline dignity and comfort, you'll certainly have family members who do.
†Granted, this is how US healthcare works…
[+] [-] rootusrootus|7 years ago|reply
Have freakishly long legs? Feel free to pay more to sit in first/economy plus/whatever.
I like this game. :)
[+] [-] Cakez0r|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] lizknope|7 years ago|reply
I fly about 3 times a year domestically in the United States and Delta, American, and United all have a "Comfort or Economy Plus" section with extra legroom. It costs between $50-200 per flight extra but also includes boarding right after first class before everyone else.
For me it is totally worth it. I don't need first class treatment but at my height the extra legroom is absolutely worth the price.
[+] [-] dcbadacd|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] username223|7 years ago|reply