> The force had put out a statement saying “anyone who declines to be scanned will not necessarily be viewed as suspicious”.
That's why it's called "erosion of rights" and not "outright nullification of rights". Unfortunately, it works, and it's entirely unsurprising that face surveillance will become normalized.
It's not everyday I quote Ted Kaczynski, but I think he had a valid point when, in his manifesto, he theorise that no amount of regulation is capable of making us safe from technological abuse.
> It is not possible to make a LASTING compromise between technology and freedom, because technology is by far the more powerful social force and continually encroaches on freedom through REPEATED compromises.
> A technological advance that appears not to threaten freedom often turns out to threaten it very seriously later on ... In many cases the new technology changes society in such a way that people eventually find themselves FORCED to use it.
> While technological progress AS A WHOLE continually narrows our sphere of freedom, each new technical advance CONSIDERED BY ITSELF appears to be desirable.
> Another reason why technology is such a powerful social force is that, within the context of a given society, technological progress marches in only one direction; it can never be reversed. Once a technical innovation has been introduced, people usually become dependent on it, so that they can never again do without it, unless it is replaced by some still more advanced innovation.
> No social arrangements, whether laws, institutions, customs or ethical codes, can provide permanent protection against technology. History shows that all social arrangements are transitory; they all change or break down eventually. But technological advances are permanent within the context of a given civilization.
There's a reason they're doing it in London first. In a wealthy city like London you can get away with going full "law and order" because the ratio of rich to poor is better (i.e more rich people) and the rich generally view this as no threat to them. Then once it's normalized they roll it out to Liverpool, Belfast and everywhere else that the poors are less under the thumb of the government.
You see this in the US. Boston, DC, New York, etc are littered with surveillance cameras and ALPRs. Once it's normalized they'll roll it out to places like New Bedford, Norlfolk and Buffalo and all the other places where the government (as an organization, not as individuals) feels its respected less.
I wonder how you'd avoid this, even if parliament had the inclination.
Would private face recognition be banned too? Very soon a CCTV setup without face recognition will be out of date.
Computer vision-ey stuff is maturing and the list of "trivial" is getting long. It'll probably be implemented in most camera applications. Face recognition, object recognition, all manner of classification.
Once your phone organizes and hyperlinks photos this way, it'll seem weird to deny police.
I'm not denying there're major rights issues associated with this, just that the technology is set to become so ambient.
* People are losing their freedom of privacy in the name of safety and most accept it. Many are likely unaware at this stage of the trade-off.
* One activist was in presence by happen chance, otherwise this likely would have gone unreported.
* The database _currently_ only keeps peoples data for 30 days. When the UK leaves the EU, this will likely be extended. China has already experienced multiple data breaches.
* It's unclear what data is kept and deleted, I suspect that metadata may be retained indefinitely.
* The money being spent on these systems could be spent getting more officers on the ground. I have no doubt they are sinking millions of pounds into this project.
* The police initially started testing this system illegally, there were no repercussions.
* The majority of people being arrested as a result of this technology are probably not the worst people in society. I believe this will be used to disproportionately target poorer people and petty crimes.
* Telling an officer to "fuck off" or "piss off" is not a crime. It's not an offense to be rude and you certainly shouldn't have to "Wind your neck in" in fear of a public servant.
> Telling an officer to "fuck off" or "piss off" is not a crime. It's not an offense to be rude and you certainly shouldn't have to "Wind your neck in" in fear of a public servant.
> The force had put out a statement saying “anyone who declines to be scanned will not necessarily be viewed as suspicious”. However, witnesses said several people were stopped after covering their faces or pulling up hoods.
> “The guy told them to p* off and then they gave him the £90 public order fine for swearing,” Ms Carlo added. “He was really angry.”
I live close to Romford, and I'm quite tempted to wander past with my face obscured and then politely decline if asked to be photographed.
Of course, I'm white, middle class and middle aged, so I probably wont be stopped.
“The guy told them to p off and then they gave him the £90 public order fine for swearing,”*
This is a common use of laws in the United Kingdom. They put lots of laws on the books around trivial things that they almost never enforce on their own, but then which officers arbitrarily use in "convenient" situations like this. The average person swearing in the street will not be accosted, someone arguing with a cop who wants to make a point will.
“The guy told them to p* off and then they gave him the £90 public order fine for swearing,” Ms Carlo added. “He was really angry.”
Accepting such a fine is voluntary, he could go to court and defend himself instead. I'd be surprised if some organisation or another didn't offer to pay his costs?
We haven't really even come to terms with the false positive rate associated with just looking at people. When law enforcement wants to check ID all they have to do is say they thought you looked like someone. The high rate of false positives is a feature not a bug. You could set up an empty box with a lens drawn on it with a motion detector aimed to go off 4% of the time and the result would be almost as useful to law enforcement as a facial detection system that actual did something. The facial detection just increases the efficiency of the "papers please" checkpoint.
Slight correction: It seems he wasn't exactly fined for hiding his face. Police asked him to uncover his face and he told them to "piss off", for which he was fined.
You'll find in the UK that it's quite common practice to use the vagueness in the law to pin a different charge on somebody. Being rude to a police officer isn't a chargeable offense, yet it'll be treated as such. The police have no requirement or training available to actually understand the nuances of the law, nor are they updated when the law changes. The British police is mostly under-trained and under-funded, especially as you break out of the London bubble.
One of the major issues with UK law is it's vagueness and openness to interpretation, which is all of course by design. You don't tend to notice erosion until the ground beneath you collapses.
Wait, that's not a slight correction, that's a whole different thing. So nobody was fined for covering their face, but when they swore at cops they got a fine for that? That's quite a distinction. That's the difference between being fined for speaking ill of Budha/Allah/God or for swearing at the police man who asked you to voluntarily not do that.
I wonder, what about methods that do not obstruct human vision but do obstruct the camera? Like a faceshield, transparent mask or bag that you can wear (like a transparent raincoat hood) but one that has scattering features for near IR light that will hide your face to cameras.
Or laser dazzlers that look for lenses. Both will probably be quickly banned as criminal tools (like 'hacking tools' are in some nations).
You could also project time-dependent illumination patterns on your own face, throwing off algorithms.
Very interested to understand what sort of metadata is being stored from these cameras. It wouldn’t surprise me in the slightest if the cameras are being used to build a database of individual’s movements, whether deliberate or as a side effect of logging.
Any more information on this from a better source than the DM?
“Live Facial Recognition uses NEC’s NeoFace technology to analyse images of the faces of people on the watch list. It measures the structure of each face, including distance between eyes, nose, mouth and jaw to create facial data.
The system detects a face, creates a digital version of it and searches it against the watch list; where it makes a match it sends an alert to an officer on the scene.
The officer compares the camera image and the watch list image and decides whether to stop and speak to the person. We always explain why we’ve stopped someone; we also give them a leaflet that explains how they can contact us to ask any questions afterwards.
The system will only keep faces matching the watch list, these are kept for 30 days, all others are deleted immediately. We delete all other data on the watch list and the footage we record.”
Is there another source for this? I don't even want to visit the Mail's website, let alone read whatever misrepresentation of what actually transpired that they have put down in their article.
>> After being pulled aside, the man told police: 'If I want to cover me face, I'll cover me face. Don't push me over when I'm walking down the street.'
Jesus, it's a good thing cops in London don't have guns. Can't imagine how this would have ended in one of the whitebread suburbs here in the US with our 'roided-out school-yard-bullies-turned-pro.
It so weird how much of our freedom and privacy we are giving away. People used to fight for these stuff.
And then you would think how far this can go in near future if this is just the beginning.
After all, all these fear and mixed feelings about security and conflicts are caused by a long chain of reactions and consequences of bad decisions governments are making themselves around the world. And it is sad that normal people end up losing their privacy more than responsible ones do.
It requires a fundamental strategy change that is not going to happen in reality. I wonder what kind of destructive side effects it will have for the future generations specially to the culture.
For those who prefer not to go to the Daily Mail directly:
"Camera cross-checked photos of faces of passers-by against wanted database. One man covered face before officers stopped him and took his picture anyway. He was fined £90 at scene in Romford by police who arrested three other people
Police say they know of human rights concerns but want to make London safer"
I regularly see people going around with their faces covered in Portland. For example, guy in dark clothes on a bmx bike riding down east bank esplanade.
I assume that these folks have warrants. But I am not aware of any deployed facial recognition in Portland.
It's not an artistic work, and there are broad rights to images in public that preclude you from making a work on your face to prevent imaging of it.
It's a nice idea but it would allow lots of law breaking of things worked that way. Eg paint something on your car, now police can't capture you on speed camera!!11one.
[+] [-] StavrosK|6 years ago|reply
That's why it's called "erosion of rights" and not "outright nullification of rights". Unfortunately, it works, and it's entirely unsurprising that face surveillance will become normalized.
[+] [-] lm28469|6 years ago|reply
125 - 135 from: https://www.josharcher.uk/static/files/2018/01/Industrial_So....
> It is not possible to make a LASTING compromise between technology and freedom, because technology is by far the more powerful social force and continually encroaches on freedom through REPEATED compromises.
> A technological advance that appears not to threaten freedom often turns out to threaten it very seriously later on ... In many cases the new technology changes society in such a way that people eventually find themselves FORCED to use it.
> While technological progress AS A WHOLE continually narrows our sphere of freedom, each new technical advance CONSIDERED BY ITSELF appears to be desirable.
> Another reason why technology is such a powerful social force is that, within the context of a given society, technological progress marches in only one direction; it can never be reversed. Once a technical innovation has been introduced, people usually become dependent on it, so that they can never again do without it, unless it is replaced by some still more advanced innovation.
> No social arrangements, whether laws, institutions, customs or ethical codes, can provide permanent protection against technology. History shows that all social arrangements are transitory; they all change or break down eventually. But technological advances are permanent within the context of a given civilization.
[+] [-] dsfyu404ed|6 years ago|reply
You see this in the US. Boston, DC, New York, etc are littered with surveillance cameras and ALPRs. Once it's normalized they'll roll it out to places like New Bedford, Norlfolk and Buffalo and all the other places where the government (as an organization, not as individuals) feels its respected less.
[+] [-] dalbasal|6 years ago|reply
Would private face recognition be banned too? Very soon a CCTV setup without face recognition will be out of date.
Computer vision-ey stuff is maturing and the list of "trivial" is getting long. It'll probably be implemented in most camera applications. Face recognition, object recognition, all manner of classification.
Once your phone organizes and hyperlinks photos this way, it'll seem weird to deny police.
I'm not denying there're major rights issues associated with this, just that the technology is set to become so ambient.
[+] [-] FerretFred|6 years ago|reply
True, but you can't erode something ad infinitum; eventually it will disappear.
[+] [-] lapinot|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bArray|6 years ago|reply
* People are losing their freedom of privacy in the name of safety and most accept it. Many are likely unaware at this stage of the trade-off.
* One activist was in presence by happen chance, otherwise this likely would have gone unreported.
* The database _currently_ only keeps peoples data for 30 days. When the UK leaves the EU, this will likely be extended. China has already experienced multiple data breaches.
* It's unclear what data is kept and deleted, I suspect that metadata may be retained indefinitely.
* The money being spent on these systems could be spent getting more officers on the ground. I have no doubt they are sinking millions of pounds into this project.
* The police initially started testing this system illegally, there were no repercussions.
* The majority of people being arrested as a result of this technology are probably not the worst people in society. I believe this will be used to disproportionately target poorer people and petty crimes.
* Telling an officer to "fuck off" or "piss off" is not a crime. It's not an offense to be rude and you certainly shouldn't have to "Wind your neck in" in fear of a public servant.
[+] [-] timthorn|6 years ago|reply
Yes it is: From the Public Order Act 1986 (http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1986/64)
A person is guilty of an offence if, with intent to cause a person harassment, alarm or distress, he—
(a)uses threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour, or disorderly behaviour, or
(b)displays any writing, sign or other visible representation which is threatening, abusive or insulting,
thereby causing that or another person harassment, alarm or distress.
[+] [-] wlkr|6 years ago|reply
This is largely true but
> It's not an offense to be rude
is rightly or wrongly a very broad grey area.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_5_Public_Order_Act_198...
[+] [-] Angostura|6 years ago|reply
> The force had put out a statement saying “anyone who declines to be scanned will not necessarily be viewed as suspicious”. However, witnesses said several people were stopped after covering their faces or pulling up hoods.
> “The guy told them to p* off and then they gave him the £90 public order fine for swearing,” Ms Carlo added. “He was really angry.”
I live close to Romford, and I'm quite tempted to wander past with my face obscured and then politely decline if asked to be photographed.
Of course, I'm white, middle class and middle aged, so I probably wont be stopped.
[+] [-] petercooper|6 years ago|reply
This is a common use of laws in the United Kingdom. They put lots of laws on the books around trivial things that they almost never enforce on their own, but then which officers arbitrarily use in "convenient" situations like this. The average person swearing in the street will not be accosted, someone arguing with a cop who wants to make a point will.
[+] [-] dazc|6 years ago|reply
Accepting such a fine is voluntary, he could go to court and defend himself instead. I'd be surprised if some organisation or another didn't offer to pay his costs?
[+] [-] NullPrefix|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rezeroed|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] fredley|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] upofadown|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] shawabawa3|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bArray|6 years ago|reply
One of the major issues with UK law is it's vagueness and openness to interpretation, which is all of course by design. You don't tend to notice erosion until the ground beneath you collapses.
[+] [-] anbop|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] lucb1e|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] telesilla|6 years ago|reply
https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2014/07/makeu...
We don't do this en masse now because "The very thing that makes you invisible to computers makes you glaringly obvious to other humans"
[+] [-] wnkrshm|6 years ago|reply
Or laser dazzlers that look for lenses. Both will probably be quickly banned as criminal tools (like 'hacking tools' are in some nations).
You could also project time-dependent illumination patterns on your own face, throwing off algorithms.
[+] [-] ChuckNorris89|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mrep|6 years ago|reply
[0]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijab_by_country
[+] [-] sundvor|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Mediterraneo10|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ptah|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] x38iq84n|6 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] cbovis|6 years ago|reply
Any more information on this from a better source than the DM?
[+] [-] cbovis|6 years ago|reply
“Live Facial Recognition uses NEC’s NeoFace technology to analyse images of the faces of people on the watch list. It measures the structure of each face, including distance between eyes, nose, mouth and jaw to create facial data.
The system detects a face, creates a digital version of it and searches it against the watch list; where it makes a match it sends an alert to an officer on the scene.
The officer compares the camera image and the watch list image and decides whether to stop and speak to the person. We always explain why we’ve stopped someone; we also give them a leaflet that explains how they can contact us to ask any questions afterwards.
The system will only keep faces matching the watch list, these are kept for 30 days, all others are deleted immediately. We delete all other data on the watch list and the footage we record.”
[+] [-] pbhjpbhj|6 years ago|reply
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KqFyBpcbH9A
They give stats and details.
It may not be the same incident as the OP, but it sounds broadly similar and the programme fleshes out the general situation well.
Edit: Actually it is the same guy. The issue and provision of the fine, etc., it's on the show.
[+] [-] YeGoblynQueenne|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] richrichardsson|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] benj111|6 years ago|reply
Don't want to get stuck in that news bubble though....
[+] [-] Wildgoose|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pbhjpbhj|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] moron4hire|6 years ago|reply
Jesus, it's a good thing cops in London don't have guns. Can't imagine how this would have ended in one of the whitebread suburbs here in the US with our 'roided-out school-yard-bullies-turned-pro.
[+] [-] stunt|6 years ago|reply
It so weird how much of our freedom and privacy we are giving away. People used to fight for these stuff.
And then you would think how far this can go in near future if this is just the beginning.
After all, all these fear and mixed feelings about security and conflicts are caused by a long chain of reactions and consequences of bad decisions governments are making themselves around the world. And it is sad that normal people end up losing their privacy more than responsible ones do.
It requires a fundamental strategy change that is not going to happen in reality. I wonder what kind of destructive side effects it will have for the future generations specially to the culture.
[+] [-] vixen99|6 years ago|reply
"Camera cross-checked photos of faces of passers-by against wanted database. One man covered face before officers stopped him and took his picture anyway. He was fined £90 at scene in Romford by police who arrested three other people Police say they know of human rights concerns but want to make London safer"
[+] [-] dominicr|6 years ago|reply
(Adding a link to a news source from the other side of the aisle to the Mail.)
[+] [-] marcod|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bredren|6 years ago|reply
I assume that these folks have warrants. But I am not aware of any deployed facial recognition in Portland.
[+] [-] coldcode|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Zenst|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pbhjpbhj|6 years ago|reply
It's a nice idea but it would allow lots of law breaking of things worked that way. Eg paint something on your car, now police can't capture you on speed camera!!11one.
[+] [-] CharlesColeman|6 years ago|reply
You can only do that if the lawmakers agree.
[+] [-] TomK32|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] teekert|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] neiman|6 years ago|reply