Oracle promised that "any" project could get the patent grant as long as you comply with the TCK, but you can only run the TCK if you agree to a restrictive license? Sounds pretty fishy to me.
Eventually, the courts will get to decide how “open” an open-source project is when one company gets to call all the important shots.
This is why I don't see a fork sustainable. Hostilities have already been mounted. I think Oracle taints the entire concept of using the JVM for anything as far as Apache is concerned. The only think I see now is the transition to separate and a completely independent technology. I wonder how difficult it would be to port the language and classes over to the LLVM, if their would even be legal ramifications in doing that and in the end if it is worth it, given that languages have progressed beyond Java now. Still maybe Apache would get something together that would allow it's libraries to operate on the LLVM while embracing a new language for future development. It's food for thought given that their is an imminent need to move beyond Oracle's reach.
> The only think I see now is the transition to separate and a completely independent technology.
GCJ would be what you're looking for here, I think. The critical question would be how badly, if at all, GCJ would be affected by an Oracle militantly pursuing perceived patent violators.
> languages have progressed beyond Java now
It's not about the language. It's about the collosal amount of libraries in the ecosystem.
I wonder how difficult it would be to port the language and classes over to the LLVM, if their would even be legal ramifications in doing that and in the end if it is worth it, given that languages have progressed beyond Java now.
Isn't that basically what Google did with Android/Dalvik and are now being sued by Oracle for?
Harmony is an alternative to OpenJDK. There is no need to fork anything unless they want to merge in some UI code or something. Suing Apache seems very counterproductive imo.
I wrote a text about this earlier today if someone is interested. Not published here since it is kinda rantish.
Please enlighten me as I am not very clear about the impact of this. Why there are people saying Java is on its death path because of this? The way I see it this only strengthens OpenJDK, which 99.9% of the applications are already using.
The TCK puts restrictions on mobile and I believe server run-times. So basically, it can only be used for desktop development or JVM lite if you will. Given that Java desktop was DOA you can see the usefulness of accepting those restrictions. Oracle as made no secret of their intent to monetize the JVM, there are a good deal of developers that believe that you don't pay to play for technology as low level as a language and run-time. So they are naturally concerned about the manner in which it will be monetized. Looking at the field of use restriction it can serve as an indicator as to where that plan to monetize it. Further with their suite against Google in relation to Android, I bleive that it paints a pretty big bulls eye on where they plan to monetize it. That being said, I have used Java since it was first placed on the net for download, I have seen it fall behind other languages and never once though it was going to die. It had too an extensive of an entrenchment and library available. I personally do believe that this was the death shot and when (I like to think) level headed guys like me, who have always said well it is good enough, sure it not shinny but good enough, start to think that it was the death shot, then it may very well be so.
For me personally, if I where asked to throw my lot in with Apache or Oracle, it would be Apache, I use their technology every day, I do a project with Oracle technology (excluding the JVM now) maybe once a year. I think Oracle thinks the entrenchment is to great to overcome, for our sake I hope they are wrong.
Fortunately for myself, I was an assembly developer before I was a C developer before I was a Java developer. So my exit, should it become untenable is easy enough given that I am a freelancer. I don't have a significant technology infrastructure investment like product people have. I truly feel for you guys that do, I would be really worried if I where in your shoes.
[+] [-] dreur|15 years ago|reply
* Harmony is already a fork of java. But without the patent grant there is an unknown.
* ASF wanted to pass the TCK for the patent grant and wanted Oracle to get rid of the field of use related to the tck.
* Dalvik is using some of Harmony's code.
[+] [-] windsurfer|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bad_user|15 years ago|reply
In order for it to be a fork, something has to get forked from the parent ... like the source code, or the standard.
[+] [-] oconnor0|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] shareme|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kls|15 years ago|reply
This is why I don't see a fork sustainable. Hostilities have already been mounted. I think Oracle taints the entire concept of using the JVM for anything as far as Apache is concerned. The only think I see now is the transition to separate and a completely independent technology. I wonder how difficult it would be to port the language and classes over to the LLVM, if their would even be legal ramifications in doing that and in the end if it is worth it, given that languages have progressed beyond Java now. Still maybe Apache would get something together that would allow it's libraries to operate on the LLVM while embracing a new language for future development. It's food for thought given that their is an imminent need to move beyond Oracle's reach.
[+] [-] regularfry|15 years ago|reply
GCJ would be what you're looking for here, I think. The critical question would be how badly, if at all, GCJ would be affected by an Oracle militantly pursuing perceived patent violators.
> languages have progressed beyond Java now
It's not about the language. It's about the collosal amount of libraries in the ecosystem.
[+] [-] po|15 years ago|reply
Isn't that basically what Google did with Android/Dalvik and are now being sued by Oracle for?
[+] [-] jp|15 years ago|reply
I wrote a text about this earlier today if someone is interested. Not published here since it is kinda rantish.
http://labs.teppefall.com/2010/12/calling_oracles_sco_bluff....
[+] [-] eddieplan9|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kls|15 years ago|reply
For me personally, if I where asked to throw my lot in with Apache or Oracle, it would be Apache, I use their technology every day, I do a project with Oracle technology (excluding the JVM now) maybe once a year. I think Oracle thinks the entrenchment is to great to overcome, for our sake I hope they are wrong.
Fortunately for myself, I was an assembly developer before I was a C developer before I was a Java developer. So my exit, should it become untenable is easy enough given that I am a freelancer. I don't have a significant technology infrastructure investment like product people have. I truly feel for you guys that do, I would be really worried if I where in your shoes.
[+] [-] Autre|15 years ago|reply