> Senior-level men are now far more hesitant to spend time with junior women than junior men across a range of basic work activities.3 They are:
> 12x more likely to hesitate to have 1-on-1 meetings
> 9x more likely to hesitate to travel together for work
> 6x more likely to hesitate to have work dinners.
I think a contributing factor is that harassment can ultimately be a he-said/she-said kind of deal. You hear horror stories about men being falsely accused and getting their lives ruined (though I don't know how big that number is, but it's something to get mad about so it gets a lot of attention). Exemplified by the 12x more likely to hesitate to have 1-on-1 meetings. Any fix for this seems to be bad, adding third parties, adding surveillance, etc. All of that points to 'one of these parties is not to be trusted'.
I think the real problem these days is more of a "she-said/its over for him" regardless of actual facts. So it is hard to blame someone to now be in "cover-your-arse-mode". And yes, this climate is the fault of the edge cases of both genders, equally the creeps who overstep boundaries and and the liars who smear innocent people for personal gain.
> You hear horror stories about men being falsely accused and getting their lives ruined (though I don't know how big that number is, but it's something to get mad about so it gets a lot of attention)
I wish there was more of an effort made to measure that. It would really help with these types of conversations
It’s a simple risk reward call. There is far more risk of accidentally crossing the line with the opposite sex. Yes MeToo has shed light on a lot and no doubt been a net positive but there will be a time until the dust settles and people learn how to work together safely. We no longer have a good formal set of norms for male female interaction. Maybe that could make some sense in situations like the work place where there is a power difference.
Think back to your interactions with others (siblings, playmates, etc.) as a kid. Those experiences taught you how to interact with others. Obviously there were mistakes - you learn to not punch others, call names, etc. The punishment was often a simple timeout, note to parents, etc.
People need to "learn" how to interact with "others" in a professional setting. This process of learning involves making mistakes. Unfortunately, in the professional workplace, the "punishment" usually involves HR, lawyers, and a risk to ruin one's career/reputation.
So most people prefer to not "learn", and instead stick to interacting with only those they are already comfortable with - e.g. people of the same gender, color, social class etc. Social media has already made this hell. More laws will only make this worse. Of course, this isn't helped by the fact that there are actual assholes who deliberately abuse others.
Anecdote - I once sent a stern/corrective email to a female colleague/junior. There was nothing gender specific in the message. My/our boss was in cc. She forwarded the mail to HR, and I got a rebuke from the boss (male) and an informal warning to not critique women. Voila.
Its not just about accidentally crossing the line but the possibility of bad intentions. Especially if there is a difference in power. University has the same problem. Never be alone in a room with a female student you have to grade is really important advice for male Professors. Having a third party sit in in one on one meetings is generally a reasonable precaution. Its simply to big of a risk to take. Its only reasonable that situation is similar with people in different positions of the company hierarchy.
Its unfortunate but it is what it is. Telling people to do it despite the risk involved is just bad advice.
"No longer"? #MeToo was about highlighting how many dysfunctional behaviours occurred with the current set of norms, so clearly the old norms didn't work great either.
That's a load of BS. Have you ever been accused of "crossing the line" with a male colleague? Have you even been concerned that you might? If not, then I think I found your problem. If someone can't come in to work and do something as simple a act like a professional around their co-workers for a few hours then it makes me wonder what else they can't do professionally.
> Not harassing women is not enough.
>
>Now more than ever, we need men to support women–not overlook or avoid them.
They have got to be joking.
If you care about your career, your family and your reputation, you simply do not leave yourself open to even the slightest possibility of being falsely accused of anything, or having someone suddenly “remember” something in ten or twenty years time if you reach the top levels of your industry.
Like it or not, we are back to Victorian rules. At work, you never allow yourself to be alone with a female colleague. You do not strike up casual conversations that could be misconstrued. You do not offer them a lift home. Most importantly, you do not become their mentor, friend, emotional support, or anything beyond polite, respectful, professional interactions directly related to work.
I know, I know, it sounds ridiculous, but our culture has changed. There is an insatiable appetite for scalps, accusations are considered proof, and there is no sign of sanity or reason entering the equation anytime soon. With such potential to rip your life apart, the only sane move is to firewall yourself.
Well, this is where social media and social justice brought us. People are so afraid of each other that they actively try to barricade themselves in real life.
We thought we are opening doors, but we are actually closing them, one by one.
Instead of following a simple 'live and let live' rule, we are now actively hunting for the slightest mistakes and missteps. Humans can't be humans anymore, there is no room for error, or mistake. Even if the court rules in favour of the accused, the branding they can get on social platforms breaks their careers and it might drive them to suicide. Where mobs demand the employer to fire said individual is just insane.
But why are we even surprised, when just telling a tasteless joke counts as an offence nowadays? Where the micro-aggression craze is consuming everybody and some forms of speech are labeled as an act of violence. People are more afraid of saying something offending to someone than having an office shooter marching through the door and gunning down people.
Walking away was never more an appropriate response as it is right now. The reward is minuscule compared to the risk one can take in these situations on a personal level.
I think there are a lot of gives and takes here. People being "afraid" of each other seems a bit dramatic. I think this may be the first time many men in the workplace had to sit back and evaluate the things they say before they say them. This movement has shed light on some of the utterly repulsive behavior people have been getting away with for years, now people just ask you to think twice before telling a joke. If thinking before saying something to a female coworker is that difficult for so many, then I am not really sure what we can do to fix it.
The old status quo was horrible for women, but the current situation makes some men uncomfortable, so I guess that's worse?
Or maybe changes are necessary, and the bad old days are still hanging on in the form of people failing to recognize how bad things were and still are for women.
This was similar to the reaction of the Americans with Disabilities act. After the ADA was passed, the amount of disabled people employed actually decreased. Employers know that hiring an ADA employee would potentially result in an ADA lawsuit, so they avoided hiring them. It was the old well intention law with unintended consequences.
Yep - which is why the exclusion arguments are very uncomfortable truths. When you boil it down, this whole backlash to sexual assault is just risk to a corporation and it's people... and it's worthless risk when it comes to the bottom-line which is what actually matters at the end of the day (not saying this is right - I think it's horrid!)
When it comes to your livelihood, businesses and people alike will do everything they can to cut-out superfluous risk with no reward. Thinking otherwise is assuming people don't operate in their best interest (they _almost always_ do).
I hate to admit I think this backlash will end up hurting women in the workplace. I think it's going to exclude folks even more than before =(
> As for why this is happening, 36% of men say they’ve avoided mentoring or socializing with a woman because they were nervous about how it would look.
I am curious to hear all reasons.
Additionally, what are they proposing as a solution here? For men to say "I am comfortable to mentor women"? Ok, how do you get them to be at that place? Just saying "it's not acceptable to be uncomfortable" does nothing.
At my workplace you can submit to be a mentor and you get assigned people who would like to learn from your skills and experience. Sometimes these are men, sometimes these are women. You first commit to "be a mentor". Then it is your responsibility and duty to do your mentorship well no matter who is assigned to you. Sure you would get a right to vote against who your mentee is but most of the time the commitment motto is enough to face being uncomfortable.
Some men truly don’t know how to conduct themselves appropriately, that’s been my lifelong experience. Maybe the response to changing culture also explains the decline in sex for young men and the number of people here saying “here, here” in response to this article rather than being constructive.
This is how change works, people have to adapt. A lot of you are arguing that you should give up rather than deal with changing culture, more for the rest I guess.
Why is "the decline in sex for young men" even relevant here? Most people who argue that "some men truly don’t know how to conduct themselves appropriately" would say that 'behaving appropriately' means that professional interactions among strangers should not be unduly sexualized. So why even bring up sex at all, it seems like a red herring here.
Changing culture is significantly harder than learning a new skill set. Culture isn't a defined set of rules that applies to the different people the same each time. People skills are generally one of the hardest skills to learn for the reason. Plainly there's no reason for people to learn most cultural shifts, while this shift is necessary and right, there's also an extreme variance of what's allowed or expected based on age and political leanings. While there are some really obvious lines that get crossed i.e. sexual favors, making comments about physical appearance, blatant sexist comments, most of what's being debated are things like what's appropriate physical contact? Is a supportive tap on the arm allowed? Is hugging a close co-worker allowed? What if a female coworker makes a sexually suggestive comment? What do you do if you are falsely accused and automatically assumed guilty because we're supposed to automatically believe all women? What path is there for redemption for reformed harassers? To suggest that questions like these are easily answered or even that they have a single answer among women isn't justifiable.
It's quite a lot easier to just work in an all-male department. You don't have to tiptoe around, you can say what you think, criticism can be offered honestly. Considerably fewer grudges are held. Stuff just gets done.
My wife works as a PM for another software company with a much different gender ratio, and every day she comes home with stories about backbiting and jockeying for position and incredibly petty feuding that makes the sum of what I've seen in the entire eight years at my employer pale in comparison. Every single day it's more drama, and they drown in communication, with so much sound and fury, signifying nothing.
I'd like to think I would be equally willing to assist people independent of gender, but there are absolutely some formats of activity where I'd be very reluctant to participate with a female, particularly a younger/whatever female. "Meet up for drinks after the conference one on one" is one of those -- I'd do it with a guy, or with someone I knew well, but wouldn't with a random woman in a lot of cases, both because I wouldn't want her to feel potentially uncomfortable, and because I wouldn't want the potential liability. Also I'd be willing to let a guy friend/colleague/etc. use my hotel room to store stuff/use the bathroom/whatever during a conference, but unless it's a peer-level colleague that I know well, would not do this with a woman.
I'd try to compensate by changing the format (adding a third or more person, or meeting at a different time or location), but I wouldn't be surprised if there's a marginal case where it would disadvantage the woman. However, there's no stranger or non-close-friend for whom I'd be willing to accept the liability here.
Then these 60% of dudes are clearly unqualified for management. Please either figure your business out or make room for someone who is capable of management.
And I say this because if a manager is that afraid of accusations, they are either doing something to earn said accusations, are promoting a work environment where false accusations are easily believed, or simply just a crappy manager and probably not good at dealing with many of their male reports either.
I note the last one because the two main archetypes that feel this way tend to be older management types that were taught by Mad Men era managers (read overgrown frat boys) or are Mike Pence style ultra-niche religious. Now, again, neither of those are flaws in and of themselves, but if you can't come above those backgrounds and manage a diverse team, then you don't deserve a team.
> And I say this because if a manager is that afraid of accusations, they are either doing something to earn said accusations, are promoting a work environment where false accusations are easily believed, or simply just a crappy manager and probably not good at dealing with many of their male reports either.
The problem is people don't know what will offend you so they play the safe route of avoiding all contact. No discussions means no risk of lawsuit, accusations etc.
I used to work at a construction company where the owner was paranoid about sexual harassment lawsuits. For this reason, he specifically hired overweight older women for all of the administrative staff because he knew this would minimize the risk of sexual harassment lawsuits. The company never had any issues with it.
except, there are a whole bunch of factors that play into this.
it's not just men seeing woman as something other than human, it's fear, misinformation, the idea the men are always the predator, mixed with the fact that both legitimate and illegitimate claims look the same i.e he said/ she said, half the time.
I totally get why men are aware that any misstep, even in it's most accidental way could be seen as harassment, and be career ending.
plus, from a outside perspective, a male boss working closely with a younger female is always going to raise eyebrows, even if their relationship is purely work/professional.
woman carry keys in their fists walking home, in fear that they might be attacked.
men avoid being in "compromising" situations with woman in the work place, even if it's just professional.
The whole trans thing has become so politicized over the past few years, I suspect a lot of guys would worry that a trans colleague would be far more likely to construe innocent interactions as discrimination.
>Just talk to me like a I'm a fellow human, it's not that hard!
I can't/don't talk to anyone at work the way I talk to "fellow humans." When I see friends from work off the clock, that's when I treat them like fellow humans. I can't talk to them like that at the office.
Working in software, I am much more socially reserved and careful in my choice of words than at any of the blue collar jobs I've had. I can see the social pressure, I can read the norms. Telling me just to be me isn't going to work, I'm not _that_ socially oblivious.
people calling it a sensible strategy or solid 'risk assessment' really surprises me.
You are to a large degree in charge of your risk. Proper, fullblown, 100% fabcricated accussations seems exceedingly rare. I've never seen any stats and the anecdotes I hear are often 3rd or 4rd degree.
Be a decent human being and you are probably still more likely to get struck by lightning or die in a car crash.
Meanwhile, the cost of walling yourself off from 50% of your colleagues (or as a manager, to avoid 50% of the workforce) seems like a very high cost to your career.
No one expects to be in a situation until they're in it. It's a Faustian bargain to be sure. There's no good outcome to come of either men sexually harassing women in any situation, and cutting out female coworkers isn't the solution either but plainly this was an expected result. If people are rational their first reaction is to be selfish and protect themselves and their family. In a few years there will be a new normal and things will start changing, but social change always does.
I have been in 3 different companies in the UK as a developer, and I feel the opposite, men are more keen to help female developers, and are nicer and more patient. Sometimes it even feels kinda pervert.
Men are economically more powerful than women, because that's what women want, and it's one way men get sex - yup, sex I a commodity that men want, and women have, and the pay gap squares the trade.
We'll end up with frustrated career women, and sexless men otherwise.
We already have sexless men. If you look at the stats, sex for men between 20 and 30 is declining rapidly, while for women it didn't change that much (just probably got more concentrated to fewer men)
Most important thing in modern America is to protect yourself and your reputation from assault as a simple accusation can destroy your life and plenty of people lie. Some rhetoric is not going to change that fact.
[+] [-] midasz|6 years ago|reply
> 12x more likely to hesitate to have 1-on-1 meetings
> 9x more likely to hesitate to travel together for work
> 6x more likely to hesitate to have work dinners.
I think a contributing factor is that harassment can ultimately be a he-said/she-said kind of deal. You hear horror stories about men being falsely accused and getting their lives ruined (though I don't know how big that number is, but it's something to get mad about so it gets a lot of attention). Exemplified by the 12x more likely to hesitate to have 1-on-1 meetings. Any fix for this seems to be bad, adding third parties, adding surveillance, etc. All of that points to 'one of these parties is not to be trusted'.
[+] [-] surelyyoujest|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] cgb223|6 years ago|reply
I wish there was more of an effort made to measure that. It would really help with these types of conversations
[+] [-] threatofrain|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] reboog711|6 years ago|reply
While I have heard these stories, they are all anecdotes that I wasn't able to verify. Can you give any real cases?
[+] [-] xupybd|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] alfredallan2|6 years ago|reply
Think back to your interactions with others (siblings, playmates, etc.) as a kid. Those experiences taught you how to interact with others. Obviously there were mistakes - you learn to not punch others, call names, etc. The punishment was often a simple timeout, note to parents, etc.
People need to "learn" how to interact with "others" in a professional setting. This process of learning involves making mistakes. Unfortunately, in the professional workplace, the "punishment" usually involves HR, lawyers, and a risk to ruin one's career/reputation.
So most people prefer to not "learn", and instead stick to interacting with only those they are already comfortable with - e.g. people of the same gender, color, social class etc. Social media has already made this hell. More laws will only make this worse. Of course, this isn't helped by the fact that there are actual assholes who deliberately abuse others.
Anecdote - I once sent a stern/corrective email to a female colleague/junior. There was nothing gender specific in the message. My/our boss was in cc. She forwarded the mail to HR, and I got a rebuke from the boss (male) and an informal warning to not critique women. Voila.
[+] [-] cf498|6 years ago|reply
Its unfortunate but it is what it is. Telling people to do it despite the risk involved is just bad advice.
[+] [-] SiempreViernes|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] microwavecamera|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gshdg|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Moo2019|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] timavr|6 years ago|reply
Do a lot of people give their boss middle finger accidentally?
Like yo, went to work, talked to CEO and give him finger, must be weather.
[+] [-] WordSkill|6 years ago|reply
They have got to be joking.
If you care about your career, your family and your reputation, you simply do not leave yourself open to even the slightest possibility of being falsely accused of anything, or having someone suddenly “remember” something in ten or twenty years time if you reach the top levels of your industry.
Like it or not, we are back to Victorian rules. At work, you never allow yourself to be alone with a female colleague. You do not strike up casual conversations that could be misconstrued. You do not offer them a lift home. Most importantly, you do not become their mentor, friend, emotional support, or anything beyond polite, respectful, professional interactions directly related to work.
I know, I know, it sounds ridiculous, but our culture has changed. There is an insatiable appetite for scalps, accusations are considered proof, and there is no sign of sanity or reason entering the equation anytime soon. With such potential to rip your life apart, the only sane move is to firewall yourself.
[+] [-] inflatableDodo|6 years ago|reply
Even the Victorians, for the most part, weren't actually this mental.
[+] [-] timavr|6 years ago|reply
Also same logic can be applied to any minority who is not in power.
I can’t be in room with black, trans-gender, gay, immigrants etc.
So as result the only people who you built relationships are white straight dudes which get promoted.
[+] [-] MrLeftHand|6 years ago|reply
We thought we are opening doors, but we are actually closing them, one by one.
Instead of following a simple 'live and let live' rule, we are now actively hunting for the slightest mistakes and missteps. Humans can't be humans anymore, there is no room for error, or mistake. Even if the court rules in favour of the accused, the branding they can get on social platforms breaks their careers and it might drive them to suicide. Where mobs demand the employer to fire said individual is just insane.
But why are we even surprised, when just telling a tasteless joke counts as an offence nowadays? Where the micro-aggression craze is consuming everybody and some forms of speech are labeled as an act of violence. People are more afraid of saying something offending to someone than having an office shooter marching through the door and gunning down people.
Walking away was never more an appropriate response as it is right now. The reward is minuscule compared to the risk one can take in these situations on a personal level.
[+] [-] apacheCamel|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pwinnski|6 years ago|reply
Or maybe changes are necessary, and the bad old days are still hanging on in the form of people failing to recognize how bad things were and still are for women.
[+] [-] anonymous5133|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] akvadrako|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] folkhack|6 years ago|reply
When it comes to your livelihood, businesses and people alike will do everything they can to cut-out superfluous risk with no reward. Thinking otherwise is assuming people don't operate in their best interest (they _almost always_ do).
I hate to admit I think this backlash will end up hurting women in the workplace. I think it's going to exclude folks even more than before =(
[+] [-] toxicFork|6 years ago|reply
I am curious to hear all reasons.
Additionally, what are they proposing as a solution here? For men to say "I am comfortable to mentor women"? Ok, how do you get them to be at that place? Just saying "it's not acceptable to be uncomfortable" does nothing.
At my workplace you can submit to be a mentor and you get assigned people who would like to learn from your skills and experience. Sometimes these are men, sometimes these are women. You first commit to "be a mentor". Then it is your responsibility and duty to do your mentorship well no matter who is assigned to you. Sure you would get a right to vote against who your mentee is but most of the time the commitment motto is enough to face being uncomfortable.
[+] [-] unknown|6 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] danmaz74|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] alphabettsy|6 years ago|reply
This is how change works, people have to adapt. A lot of you are arguing that you should give up rather than deal with changing culture, more for the rest I guess.
[+] [-] 0815test|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] cannonedhamster|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] thrower123|6 years ago|reply
My wife works as a PM for another software company with a much different gender ratio, and every day she comes home with stories about backbiting and jockeying for position and incredibly petty feuding that makes the sum of what I've seen in the entire eight years at my employer pale in comparison. Every single day it's more drama, and they drown in communication, with so much sound and fury, signifying nothing.
[+] [-] rdl|6 years ago|reply
I'd try to compensate by changing the format (adding a third or more person, or meeting at a different time or location), but I wouldn't be surprised if there's a marginal case where it would disadvantage the woman. However, there's no stranger or non-close-friend for whom I'd be willing to accept the liability here.
[+] [-] triplee|6 years ago|reply
And I say this because if a manager is that afraid of accusations, they are either doing something to earn said accusations, are promoting a work environment where false accusations are easily believed, or simply just a crappy manager and probably not good at dealing with many of their male reports either.
I note the last one because the two main archetypes that feel this way tend to be older management types that were taught by Mad Men era managers (read overgrown frat boys) or are Mike Pence style ultra-niche religious. Now, again, neither of those are flaws in and of themselves, but if you can't come above those backgrounds and manage a diverse team, then you don't deserve a team.
[+] [-] sdinsn|6 years ago|reply
And there is the victim blaming.
[+] [-] WeirdFlexButOky|6 years ago|reply
As a (trans) woman who is non-tech in a tech company I find this stat concerning.
Just talk to me like a I'm a fellow human, it's not that hard!
PS; not too sure what 'working alone' means in terms of a common work activity?
[+] [-] anonymous5133|6 years ago|reply
I used to work at a construction company where the owner was paranoid about sexual harassment lawsuits. For this reason, he specifically hired overweight older women for all of the administrative staff because he knew this would minimize the risk of sexual harassment lawsuits. The company never had any issues with it.
[+] [-] who-knows95|6 years ago|reply
it's not just men seeing woman as something other than human, it's fear, misinformation, the idea the men are always the predator, mixed with the fact that both legitimate and illegitimate claims look the same i.e he said/ she said, half the time.
I totally get why men are aware that any misstep, even in it's most accidental way could be seen as harassment, and be career ending.
plus, from a outside perspective, a male boss working closely with a younger female is always going to raise eyebrows, even if their relationship is purely work/professional.
woman carry keys in their fists walking home, in fear that they might be attacked.
men avoid being in "compromising" situations with woman in the work place, even if it's just professional.
though, this is just my opinion.
[+] [-] WordSkill|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] forgottenpass|6 years ago|reply
I can't/don't talk to anyone at work the way I talk to "fellow humans." When I see friends from work off the clock, that's when I treat them like fellow humans. I can't talk to them like that at the office.
Working in software, I am much more socially reserved and careful in my choice of words than at any of the blue collar jobs I've had. I can see the social pressure, I can read the norms. Telling me just to be me isn't going to work, I'm not _that_ socially oblivious.
[+] [-] oblio|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] AdamHede|6 years ago|reply
You are to a large degree in charge of your risk. Proper, fullblown, 100% fabcricated accussations seems exceedingly rare. I've never seen any stats and the anecdotes I hear are often 3rd or 4rd degree.
Be a decent human being and you are probably still more likely to get struck by lightning or die in a car crash.
Meanwhile, the cost of walling yourself off from 50% of your colleagues (or as a manager, to avoid 50% of the workforce) seems like a very high cost to your career.
[+] [-] cannonedhamster|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dondawest|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] guilhas|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dang|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] spaniel|6 years ago|reply
Men are economically more powerful than women, because that's what women want, and it's one way men get sex - yup, sex I a commodity that men want, and women have, and the pay gap squares the trade.
We'll end up with frustrated career women, and sexless men otherwise.
[+] [-] xiphias2|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] devoply|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pas|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] fuckamerica|6 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] Frodo478|6 years ago|reply