You know what I want to do, I want to actually create sci-fi films with my favourite actors. But sadly, I don't have the money, time or network of highly paid actors to do so.
Sucks doesn't it?
But what if I could get the time, a little bit of money and actors who are just starting out and relatively cheap?
Can you hear that? Just maybe the democratization of film, may just be happening?
Now imagine, building out very cheap scenes, overlaying them with something like Unreal3d engine and using deepfakes instead of having someone sit in a chair for 5 hours because they need makeup, as they are acting as some alien?
Or how about having permission from "Schwarzenegger as a service" (TM pending) to use his likeness as a deepfake in the film?
I know, I know. People will use this for porn first and if you look at technology like VHS, internet streaming, VR it's all being used for porn. But as the tech gets better, gets cheaper. It'll be put into the hands of the creatives and we'll be a lot better for it.
> You know what I want to do, I want to actually create sci-fi films with my favourite actors. But sadly, I don't have the money, time or network of highly paid actors to do so.
But the reason these people are your favourite actors is that they're...good at acting, right? The deepfake won't improve the performance of your budget actor (actually it'll probably make it much worse). So your movie will be like seeing your favourite actors putting in absurdly terrible performances. Are you sure you want this?
> permission from "Schwarzenegger as a service" (TM pending) to use his likeness as a deepfake in the film?
Just like regular intellectual property licensing, either they won't even talk to you or it'll cost far more than you can afford. If you do it without permission you'll get takedown notices or worse.
The fake porn problem really should not be underestimated in a society that still does incredibly vicious slut-shaming. Previously you could argue that one could avoid this by not taking any nude photos or allowing your partner to do so, but once these things start getting generated from just a face it's going to be practically impossible to control it and the demand for legal action will grow.
I've been thinking about this for a while. The "despecialized" versions of the Star Wars films prove that audiences can dictate the nature of a creative work in lieu of (or in spite of) its creator(s). It became apparent that eventually fan-edits of films, and fan-remakes of films, might eventually supplant the official material in certain cases.
But beyond the concept of "superior" or more popular versions of flawed films, there would be branching iterations that eventually are so distinct from their source material that they'd essentially be different things all together. Which is exciting to me.
I think you are imagining something that may be the end result of AI merging with the Netflix model.
Today Netflix produces shows by analyzing audience preferences. It's focus groups 2.0. In the future they might start generating shows based on individual preferences. Photo realistic content staring all your favorite actors in a plot you'll love in a setting you'll love. You might even be in it. Why not? Why not have every movie woven into your life? You could take this line of thought in some pretty crazy directions!
Hmmmm... Want to star in the greatest movie you've ever seen? No problem, just hand over every last detail about yourself!
One alternative is to criminalize fantasizing about other people. Isn’t it gross that a person can create the likeness of another person in their mind and perform all sorts of sexual depravity with that unreal image? Absolutely disgusting and we need to do something about it.
What I'm curious about is if the existing contracts actors sign with movie publishers that give them the rights to use the actors likeness in perpetuity mean they can use them via deepfakes and stop actually paying the actors. I imagine that deepfake technology was not imagined when people agreed to such contracts, and that it will have to be considered in the future. It would now be trivially easy for, say, Sony Pictures to make the next Mission Impossible film by hiring low-cost actors and digitally replacing their features with Tom Cruises without involving him financially at all.
Personally I think the whole reaction to deepfakes is overblown, and makes luddites out of otherwise reasonable people.
If it were to become common, society would quickly learn to take all video with a grain of salt. We already question suspicious images. If the exact line of how a photo got to you from the camera is unknown people quickly exclaim things to be Photoshopped.
I don’t think expanding our questioning to video is that far of a societal jump.
Wasn't there an issue recently of the POTUS tweeting an obviously fake and doctored photo to his followers? I don't think that group responded with skepticism. Making a more convincing fake would be even more psychologically satisfying for people. As it gets better it's harder and harder to disprove it as being fake and people will be more willing to take the easy path and accept it. After all, people still accept incriminating photos as evidence.
This just happened a few days ago and it was basic alterations and despite being authenticated as an altered video there are still those who:
-Deny it was altered
-Spread it for the sole purpose of misinformation
People will weaponize this technology like they do all others and gladly welcome it with open arms. We simply need to develop ways to identify and prevent abuse of powers.
Once I overheard a guy ranting about how iPods were bad because if you carried your music with you everywhere, you could feel whatever you wanted at any time, which was unnatural and bad for your psyche.
Really you can already look at basically any illustrated porn you want, just pay a bit of money to an artist. This is a huge portion of the furry community. $50 will easily get you some impressive furry smut.
Deepfakes can only put different faces on people, it can't create some of the more niche fetishes the illustrated porn market does. Call me back when it can generate a 800 foot tall bird-man stomping on a pixie.
There's already an algorithm for decensoring hentai pages [0, even reaches HN's front page last year], I'm not surprised if there are a few efforts trying to generate a whole comic from zero already lol.
The future will probably be automated scripts running in VR-MMD and bespoke engines, and it'd be probably a very good future for a while.
Edit: nevermind, seems furries also have their own generators, though I suspect anime girls (and boys), being more... standardised, have better outcome already.
And the second link is about a different regulatory regime, but eh.
The real danger I see is if/when deepfake-like tech becomes so ubiquitous that we no longer believe anything we see on video.
What will that mean for surveillance evidence? What will that mean for police brutality videos? What will it mean for rape/harassment/assault/stalking/etc videos?
By spreading this tech, which seems inevitable now, we roll back the protective aspects of video/film by decades, if not more.
Presumably there will be a legal requirement that video used as evidence is digitally signed by the camera, using tamper-proof hardware and a certificate chain back to a certified manufacturer. Anything less will just be contested in court, and thrown out.
Whenever people hear about these issues (and now pretty much any issue sadly) they always jump to the worst conclusions and stop considering balance, which is ultimately what we need to preserve. This is a complex issue, oversimplifying it only serves to make things worse. Like any entity in this entire universe, deep-fakes can be used for good and bad. I am willing to bet there is a middle ground that makes sense and allows us to ultimately mostly benefit from whatever good this technology brings. Its about thinking within reason. Saying things like "This will be the best thing every" or the opposite extreme, "This will collapse society!" only speaks to the radical mindset it seems everyone has been poisoned with.
It is becoming difficult to discuss these kinds of issues at all with the way everyone seems to so easily move to the extremities..
Beyond ethics, I'm worried more about societal collapse. Going further we might have entirely generated ultra-realistic and ultra-specific pornography that will ultimately lead to people just not having sex... This concern has already been raised with sexbots, but machine pornography (for the lack of a better term) seems that it'll arrive first.
I'm not concerned about that. Humans are social creatures and can get sick if they don't have sufficient social contact to get their needs met. One of those needs is intimacy (and with intimacy, sex often follows). We are very far away from building a machine that can satisfy that better than a human (since it is harder problem to solve than the Turing test). And if we do develop such a machine and people stop having sex, that's not the end of children. Children can be produced without sex (and eventually may not need a human uterus), so society would likely continue.
I'd be a bit more concerned about people just deciding not to have children (because raising children is a pain), but right now there's too many people, so I'll worry when there are less than 100 million.
Younger generations, at least in the US, are already having much less sex than the ones that precede them[0]. Sexbots and on-demand creation of digital pornography will most definitely come--no pun intended--and fill a need that's being neglected more and more: having intimate relationships with actual people. It's bound to happen, I would say; especially if isolation, depression and anxiety rates keep their upward tendency.
Sex with more than one person is a lot more fun than even the most pleasurable wank to even the most ultra specific porn. In fact, you could do the naughty with someone while watching your ultimate kink. There is zero risk of societal collapse due to a lack of sex.
Would that honestly be so terrible? Aren’t we running the risk of overpopulating ourselves out of existence anyway? If a quarter of society just sort of “drops out” into a fantasy world, and they’re happy there, not hurting anybody, what’s the problem?
People don’t have children because they want to have sex, they have children when they want to have children.
Even if something better than sex came into being, people’s wish to have children would be unaffected, and I doubt they would have any problem engaging in old-school sex for that purpose.
Ordinarily, Billy would work hard to make money with his paper route, then he'd use the money to buy dinner for Mavis, thus earning a slim chance to perform the reproductive act... But in a world where teens can date robots, why should he bother? Why should anyone bother?!
That's really rather dramatic. It will certainly lead to a lot of changes and society will function very differently, but pornography leading to the end of the world...really?
It is perfectly ethical to be able to watch what you want.
If the supposed problem is that what you watch may be unethical to some other person, that also does not compute.
Why should I care what some religious zealot thinks about the ethics of me watching self-created deep fake porn in the privacy of my home?
[+] [-] no1youknowz|6 years ago|reply
You know what I want to do, I want to actually create sci-fi films with my favourite actors. But sadly, I don't have the money, time or network of highly paid actors to do so.
Sucks doesn't it?
But what if I could get the time, a little bit of money and actors who are just starting out and relatively cheap?
Can you hear that? Just maybe the democratization of film, may just be happening?
Take a look at this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXHsgucZuJk
Now imagine, building out very cheap scenes, overlaying them with something like Unreal3d engine and using deepfakes instead of having someone sit in a chair for 5 hours because they need makeup, as they are acting as some alien?
Or how about having permission from "Schwarzenegger as a service" (TM pending) to use his likeness as a deepfake in the film?
I know, I know. People will use this for porn first and if you look at technology like VHS, internet streaming, VR it's all being used for porn. But as the tech gets better, gets cheaper. It'll be put into the hands of the creatives and we'll be a lot better for it.
I'm really bullish about this tech.
[+] [-] syllogism|6 years ago|reply
But the reason these people are your favourite actors is that they're...good at acting, right? The deepfake won't improve the performance of your budget actor (actually it'll probably make it much worse). So your movie will be like seeing your favourite actors putting in absurdly terrible performances. Are you sure you want this?
[+] [-] ebg13|6 years ago|reply
Yes. How about having permission first?
When people talk about the ethics of deepfakes, they are talking about consent. What else do you think they're talking about?
[+] [-] pjc50|6 years ago|reply
Just like regular intellectual property licensing, either they won't even talk to you or it'll cost far more than you can afford. If you do it without permission you'll get takedown notices or worse.
The fake porn problem really should not be underestimated in a society that still does incredibly vicious slut-shaming. Previously you could argue that one could avoid this by not taking any nude photos or allowing your partner to do so, but once these things start getting generated from just a face it's going to be practically impossible to control it and the demand for legal action will grow.
[+] [-] Eleopteryx|6 years ago|reply
I've been thinking about this for a while. The "despecialized" versions of the Star Wars films prove that audiences can dictate the nature of a creative work in lieu of (or in spite of) its creator(s). It became apparent that eventually fan-edits of films, and fan-remakes of films, might eventually supplant the official material in certain cases.
But beyond the concept of "superior" or more popular versions of flawed films, there would be branching iterations that eventually are so distinct from their source material that they'd essentially be different things all together. Which is exciting to me.
[+] [-] flycaliguy|6 years ago|reply
Today Netflix produces shows by analyzing audience preferences. It's focus groups 2.0. In the future they might start generating shows based on individual preferences. Photo realistic content staring all your favorite actors in a plot you'll love in a setting you'll love. You might even be in it. Why not? Why not have every movie woven into your life? You could take this line of thought in some pretty crazy directions!
Hmmmm... Want to star in the greatest movie you've ever seen? No problem, just hand over every last detail about yourself!
[+] [-] pesmhey|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] otakucode|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sitkack|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] beavisthegenius|6 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] donatj|6 years ago|reply
If it were to become common, society would quickly learn to take all video with a grain of salt. We already question suspicious images. If the exact line of how a photo got to you from the camera is unknown people quickly exclaim things to be Photoshopped.
I don’t think expanding our questioning to video is that far of a societal jump.
[+] [-] SketchySeaBeast|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bliblah|6 years ago|reply
This just happened a few days ago and it was basic alterations and despite being authenticated as an altered video there are still those who:
-Deny it was altered
-Spread it for the sole purpose of misinformation
People will weaponize this technology like they do all others and gladly welcome it with open arms. We simply need to develop ways to identify and prevent abuse of powers.
[+] [-] tribune|6 years ago|reply
I think he was crazy. But it gave me pause
[+] [-] Bakary|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] xgulfie|6 years ago|reply
Deepfakes can only put different faces on people, it can't create some of the more niche fetishes the illustrated porn market does. Call me back when it can generate a 800 foot tall bird-man stomping on a pixie.
[+] [-] inawarminister|6 years ago|reply
There's already an algorithm for decensoring hentai pages [0, even reaches HN's front page last year], I'm not surprised if there are a few efforts trying to generate a whole comic from zero already lol.
The future will probably be automated scripts running in VR-MMD and bespoke engines, and it'd be probably a very good future for a while.
[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18328213
Edit: nevermind, seems furries also have their own generators, though I suspect anime girls (and boys), being more... standardised, have better outcome already. And the second link is about a different regulatory regime, but eh.
[+] [-] b_tterc_p|6 years ago|reply
*it being some similar type of GANN
[+] [-] turingbike|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] zupreme|6 years ago|reply
What will that mean for surveillance evidence? What will that mean for police brutality videos? What will it mean for rape/harassment/assault/stalking/etc videos?
By spreading this tech, which seems inevitable now, we roll back the protective aspects of video/film by decades, if not more.
[+] [-] mhandley|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] twic|6 years ago|reply
https://vimeo.com/306304445
[+] [-] yboris|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] spookybones|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] keiru|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jdefr89|6 years ago|reply
It is becoming difficult to discuss these kinds of issues at all with the way everyone seems to so easily move to the extremities..
[+] [-] grenoire|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] IX-103|6 years ago|reply
I'd be a bit more concerned about people just deciding not to have children (because raising children is a pain), but right now there's too many people, so I'll worry when there are less than 100 million.
[+] [-] Funes-|6 years ago|reply
[0]: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/12/the-sex....
[+] [-] Tharkun|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] commandlinefan|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] IfOnlyYouKnew|6 years ago|reply
Even if something better than sex came into being, people’s wish to have children would be unaffected, and I doubt they would have any problem engaging in old-school sex for that purpose.
[+] [-] LastZactionHero|6 years ago|reply
- Futurama, I Dated a Robot
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrrADTN-dvg
[+] [-] enriquto|6 years ago|reply
This is really funny... the church has spent centuries trying to convince people to not fuck around, and now we are achieving this goal through porn.
[+] [-] chadmeister|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|6 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] zzo38computer|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Proven|6 years ago|reply
If the supposed problem is that what you watch may be unethical to some other person, that also does not compute. Why should I care what some religious zealot thinks about the ethics of me watching self-created deep fake porn in the privacy of my home?