Less Processed Meat, More Plant-Based Foods May Boost Longevity

[rajekas]

To be honest, I don't get the mania for processed meat substitutes when there's excellent vegetarian/vegan fare from cuisines that have been doing it for millennia. As an Indian brought up in a vegetarian family, I had no inkling or desire to eat meat until I came to the US for grad school.

One day I had this niggling doubt that I continued to be a vegetarian for cultural rather than ethical reasons. I tested that hypothesis by eating a hamburger. It was literally the worst thing I had ever tasted. I had to try hard not to throw up and offend my hosts.

Then I tasted bacon, hot dogs pastrami sandwiches and fried chicken and I understood why people like meat. That continued for a few more months.

About six months after the hamburger episode, I had another epiphany that I don't like eating animals since I don't like animals being eaten. I turned vegan. All's well that ends well.

[nerdponx]

To be honest, I don't get the mania for processed meat substitutes when there's excellent vegetarian/vegan fare from cuisines that have been doing it for millennia.

There's a term for vegans who don't actually eat whole foods: "french fry vegan". It's as derisive as it sounds. If you're eating processed meat substitutes all the time as a vegetarian, IMO you aren't doing it right. I'm sure plenty of other people would agree.

And yet, vegetarians do eat those things sometimes. It's cultural. In the West (not just in the USA, in much of Europe as well), a lot of traditional foods are either meat-based or contain meat. My friends and I want to go out for a burger and a milkshake, because that's fun for us; I want a damn burger. A grilled mushroom on a roll is equally delicious, but it just isn't the same.

[skookum]

> To be honest, I don't get the mania for processed meat substitutes...

It seems you didn't even bother to read the article to check if it would make good segue into your vegan epiphany story: there is no mention of processed meat substitutes.

It also seems like the hamburger you tried was quite poorly prepared if hot dogs made a more compelling case for eating meat.

[uxcolumbo]

it will boost the longevity of our biosphere, based on a 5 year Oxford Uni study - see https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/may/31/avoiding...

And also have a look at research by PCRM (group of doctors and medical pros): https://www.pcrm.org/term/processed-meat

[tunnuz]

With more and more people switching to vegetarian and vegan fake meats, I'd be interested in understanding what is the wisdom on highly processed vegetable-based foods.

[afpx]

Processing foods is what likely helped Homo to get enough energy to evolve big brains. So, processing foods isn’t all that bad, and it may even be hard-wired in many of us.

But, Humans tend to take things too far, and inventing new ways of processing is really fun! So, most food today is over-processed. It’s acceptable to grind, dice, tear, smash, smush, squeeze, ferment, spice, salt, and cook veggies, lightly. Any more than that is risky territory.

[jamil7]

I think it's also not great for many of the same reasons but the motivation might be more eithical or environmental than health. Most of the vegans I know (myself included) have totally different diets that don't include meat replacements at all. Beans and legumes take the place of red meat.

[hutzlibu]

Probably none, most want to hear about, if there is something to it. They struggled hard to replace their meat with soy and extracted proteins and yeast from wherever .. it must be good.

I just really believe, that for the most part my body knows the best whats good for him. I just have to really pay attention. So sugar might taste good, but my body does not feel good, when eating too much of it. Meat is good, but only if it is good meat and not too much (meat that did not suffer too much and pushed with medicaments).

So balanced diet, lots of vegetables ... the classical recommendation, seems right.

[looeee]

It's simple. Avoid them, just as you should avoid processed meat.

Easy less processed food, and lots of fruit, veg, fiber, and protein from whatever source you like. That's the key to a healthy diet.

[hannob]

This is obviously a simplification, but a rule of thumb is probably: Just as unhealthy as the meat alternative for you (particularly the closer these alternatives come to the original), but better for the planet.

[drchewbacca]

I think the longevity of dietary advice is pretty low. Remember when eggs were the enemy, when fat was the enemy, when carbs were the enemy? Meat had to have it's turn sometime.

[jsjolen]

Perhaps we can judge the statements on the evidence behind them?

The reason that processed meat (that is meats which are smoked, salted, etc.) is recommended to not be eaten is because it has been shown to be carcinogenic.

The egg thing is based on the idea (I actually don't know enough to know if this is correct or not) that dietary cholesterol intake affects blood cholesterol levels, and eggs have a bit of dietary cholesterol in them.

I get that we're not very educated within this area but perhaps we should stay quiet then? What's the point in writing comments on HN about things we know very little about?

[Ensorceled]

Eating processed meat has been consistently "bad for you" since at least the late 60's, when I remember being told that bologna and hot dogs weren't healthy but ok as a treat.

[cageface]

Huge sums are being spent to confuse consumers. Reliable research has actually been pretty consistent for decades and repeatedly implicates dietary cholesterol and saturated fat in a variety of diseases.

[emadb]

Research and science advance and find new evidences that invalidates the past belief.

[cproctor]

Dietary advice lives longer when it contains less processed food.

[arisAlexis]

didn't you hear that eggs are again an enemy? it's like politics

[albertgoeswoof]

Regarding processed meat, what part of the processing makes the meat unhealthy? Or is it something related to how processed meat is often consumed vs unprocessed meat?

[adrianN]

Curing with nitrites is not particularly healthy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curing_(food_preservation)#Nit...

Smoking is probably not good either.

[Down_n_Out]

Not to speak about the amount of antibiotics in meat probably [1][2][3]

[1]https://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/28/opinion/antibiotics-and-t... [2] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/10/05/most-... [3] https://www.consumerreports.org/cro/2012/06/antibiotics-are-...

[GordonS]

From the WHO stuff that was released a few years ago, I understood that "nasty processing" really only meant where nitrites were used (to preserve meat)?

[lm28469]

It's all the additional steps and products added. A lot of processed meat are juste a slime of bones, skin, organs, ligaments whatever was left on the carcass of the animal. On top of that it comes from low quality (cheap) animals in the first place which doesn't help.

It's like eating a fruit vs drinking a juice, or eating raw veggies vs a broth. The original material is the same but it doesn't mean it holds the same benefits.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9il0DVhT86E

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NzUm7UEEIY

[matthewmacleod]

It’s a bit cliché now, but Michael Pollan’s dietary advice (https://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/28/magazine/28nutritionism.t...) does seem to be reasonable: “Eat food. Not too much. Mostly plants.”

[Doubl]

I am now cynical about all dietary advice. In Western countries the sort of people who eat bacon and burgers tend to have very different lifestyles from those who eat sushi. They are more likely to smoke and less likely to exercise. They are also likely to be less well educated and more likely to be poor and work at unhealthy jobs. Are all these factors taken account of in this study? For example, as I understand it, black people in America eat a lot of white meat (chicken which is supposed to be healthier than red meat) and yet their health tends to be poorer than average.

[hartator]

I wonder how true this is. I have been trying to switch to a more carnivore diet - more red meat eg steak - for rumored benefits of lowering inflammation and boosting immune system. This is stating the reverse.

[adrianN]

It's nutritional science, so the error bars are big, the effect sizes are small and the confounding variables numerous. At least a plant-based diet reduces your GHG footprint, so there's that. If you want to switch to a more carnivorous diet, I'd suggest chicken instead of beef. The evidence for mammalian meat being slightly carcinogenic seems to be pretty solid, and the climate impact of beef is about ten times that of chicken.

[cageface]

Animal protein is highly inflammatory. This is about the worst thing you can do if you are concerned about inflammation. Load up on fresh vegetables and fruits instead.

[Blaiz0r]

This article does emphasise processed meat being the cause, so Bacon and Hotdogs for example, as opposed to Butcher cuts or prepared foul.

[baxtr]

I found this site to be helpful: https://nutritionfacts.org

[Toine]

Wow, where did you hear that kind of advices ?

Everywhere I look, I see meat, especially red meat, being demonized, and increasing inflammation.

[msiyer]

I said the same thing in a previous HN discussion and my comment was down voted into oblivion. Many Asian cultures had this thing figured out thousands of years ago. Less or no meat. Many famous martial arts schools (Indian, Chinese and Japanese) are totally vegetarian. So, the argument that meat is needed for extreme physical activity goes out of the window. Almost all Asian monks (Buddhist, Jain or Hindu) are vegetarians. So, the argument that meat is needed for better mental\intellectual health also goes out the window.

[londons_explore]

Are there any clues in the scientific literature what part of 'processed' is causing lower longevity?

Ideas:

* 'Worse' cuts of meat (near bone, nerves, etc)

* Grinding/processing system introduces contamination.

* Processing mixes meats from many animals which spreads infections more.

* Smaller pieces of meat degrade with bacteria faster.

* Processed meat tends to be served with less healthy meals otherwise (more salt, fat).

[dejaime]

We just have to make sure we are not swapping super processed meats with super processed plant-based foods. Avoiding processed foods is what makes up for most of this difference.

[Double_a_92]

What is it that makes "processed" meat especially bad? Would the same thing also apply to processed vegetables?

[MiscIdeaMaker99]

One study isn't scientific fact.

[thrower123]

I do not care, despite the constant barrages from the ethical vegetarians and the climate-alarmist vegetarians, and the Beyond Meat investors.

First off, steak and bacon and pork taste delicious, and life on rabbit food is not, in my opinion, worth living.

Second of all, the only way that I can maintain anything close to what the literature says should be a healthy weight is when I slash grains out of my diet and eat low carb, high fat, supplemented by green vegetables. Any vegetarian diet's benefits pale in comparison to the threat of diabetes and general wear and tear from carrying extra weight around.

[lorriman]

Before anyone goes vegan, check-out the numerous ex-vegan videos on youtube. Even with supplementation veganism isn't sustainable for most people past 3 years, 10 if you're lucky, very few get to 15. Just keep in mind that without vitamin B12 supplements-->certain death.

This is not a human diet, and humans are not herbivores. Herbivores have complex stomachs or eat their own poop (eg, gorrillas and rabbits).

After the health flush of the first few months, veganism is a downward spiral to pasty skin, mood-swings, depression, dark circles, fatigue, skinny-but-fat, Joint paint, constant hunger/lack-of-satisfaction, excessive volume of eating. Vegans eat like you wouldn't believe. And a great deal of wildlife dies due to agricultural farming.

And despite what people say, anthropologically we are not omnivores but carnivores. Radio-isotope analysis has us eating a diet close to a wolf by preference over the last million years. Unlike a pig, a genuine omnivore, we do not have a proper cecum.

But sure, a few humans are better adapted to a plant-based diet than others, and our distant genetics was herbivore which means these genes can re-express, but for most people veganism becomes a nightmare and explains why the level has historically been at 0.3%.