This was an inevitable conclusion, I grew up in Hong Kong and we left in 1996 during the handover along with many other ex-pats. We saw the writing on the wall as did many others based on how horrible the handover was going. It is a true shame what is happening to Hong Kong now but I don't see China relenting to pressure as that would only embolden other cities to do similar protests. I worry for my friends who are still there as the only way this is going to end is in a continued escalation of violence. As someone who visited Tiananmen Square in the early 90s, it was amazing how quickly the country moved on and refused to discuss it. I worry that is what is going to happen in HK.
The ability to suppress discussion/political action in response to such a significant event (such as Tiananmen Square) would seem more difficult now with ubiquitous cameras.
Many records can be made, but can they also be shared widely enough to maintain political pressure? Maybe not, if the population is dependent on government controlled internet infrastructure. This makes Starlink more interesting. How do you prevent your population from using foreign built satellite internet if that country should choose to make it freely available to your citizens? Do you simply lose control? Do you try to rebuild/force roll out a proprietary, non-interoperable telecommunications system?
After seeing the impact of telecommunications and social media propaganda on recent world events (for instance, the Arab Spring) - I’m sure there are smart people thinking about how to plug populations into the internet against the desires of the home country. Satellite based internet seems like an obvious solution, but maybe it’s not even as complicated as that.
This is something I've always been confused about- what's the difference between an "expat" and an "economic immigrant"? Is it just the origin country or color of skin?
The only thing that can serve to enforce the Joint Declaration (and similar bi-lateral agreements between countries) is if the signatories uphold and maintain their expectations of the other.
For the last two decades, China has been testing for any response on the part of the British to encroachments on HK's autonomy. Britain has largely remained mum, failing to call out China on increasing violations of the Joint Declaration and the Basic Law.
Then things really accelerated with the premiership of Xi Jinping, and those tests have come thicker and faster.
While Britain doesn't necessarily have a large amount of leverage these days with its own problems going on, taking a principled stand on things in the public eye is not without its benefits.
Taking a principled stand only goes so far. If they’re challenged on that stand and don’t end up following through, it would make perfectly clear that Britain has 0 leverage, which I guess is scary for the British Government. Even if that is the truth.
> While Britain doesn't necessarily have a large amount of leverage
Sure it does. It could probably get a small coalition of American and possible European forces to facilitate an evacuation of the city for anyone who wants to leave, to Hong Kong, the U.K. or the United States. There is a lot of human capital in Hong Kong, capital that relies on competent government, fair courts and a government with a legitimate mandate.
This isn’t happening because domestic populations in the West aren’t wholly tuned into Hong Kong’s situation.
The politics in HK pseudo-democracy seems complex. Is there any way to democratically remove pro-Beijing camp from the power? Unless there is, it seems like the government just has to weather the storm.
It's exceedingly unlikely to happen (and Beijing would likely find a way to prevent it from happening) in the legislature ("Legco"). This is due to combination of proportional representation in the geographic constituencies, and the fact that half the seats are taken up by functional constituencies which are mostly pro-Beijing. And the Chief Executive is explicitly chosen from a pool of pro-Beijing candidates, so that wouldn't happen unless the law is changed. (The law that enacted this in 2014 was one of the sparks for the so-called "Umbrella Revolution")
Yes, but you need a very tilted election toward them due to the indirect nature of the election. Probably about 65% of vote against Beijing parties would do it.
For example: People in EU can see footage of drowning people trying to cross the mediteranean sea, and react by punishing the orgnizations who try to help.
Really, the interpretation of events matters much much more, than some footage.
If Democracy were to die in HK, I think it’s better for it to die this way rather than a silent squeal like what has happened here in America. The executive runs roughshod ignoring laws and subpoenas, the idiot President openly invites foreign assistance to win elections and not a single protest among over 300 million so called Patriotic Americans.
We trade with China so readily without even a thought of the kind of dark totalitarian regime reigns, anything for profit right ?
Feel very sorry for the HK citizens but there is nothing the UK can do, HK being returned to China was seen as part of the end of UK influence which (people wanted?), meaning we have 0 influence now.
However being under the sphere of China's political surveillance system is clearly not what anybody wanted.
I noted with interest how citizens binned all digital methods of payment and comms to avoid be prosecuted for being at the demonstrations retrospectively and presumably extradited to some prison factory in China if the extradition dictat gets through.
Anyway IMHO Trump has inadvertently tried to reset the balance and caused the Chinese alot of problems by starving them of tech know how and trade. But as we know Presidents come and go - Communist China is eternal - they will just wait for the next leader to turn around and sell out everyone.
A key difference to understand between protests in America and in Hong Kong is that there is no division in Hong Kong about the issue. In the US, for example, half of the population opposes Trump and half supports him. There are anti-Trump protests and pro-Trump rally. The US is divided on many issues.
In Hong Kong, the whole population is united against the government. The territory is democratic on paper, but no longer in practice and basically run by the CCP.
(Note, recently moved from the US to HK and went to see the protests for myself yesterday, though I didn't actively participate)
I’d like to believe that but just yesterday someone posted links to a Chinese news site showing lots of visible support for the pro government side. Lots of signs in the city showing support and a fleet of fishing boats with signs. Even if this is pure propaganda it shows there is visible support (even if artificial).
Sadly not, my wife who is from HK and strongly supports the protests just had a fight with her parents because they support the government. They even lived in mainland China during the cultural revolution, suffered for it, but still think the communist party can do no wrong.
Well first, be honest here. We suffered far more overreach in the previous Administration which was all to clearly revealed by Snowden and Manning. We had the press actively harassed and investigated by the DOJ and even the IRS. All we have now is the bluster but we don't have sycophants in government agencies jumping to do anything behind the scenes.
to be honest, just what in the hell do people in Western nations have to protest about? Not enough screen time? Someone driving a nicer car. The Western world is stupidly well off to the point they have to invent offenses! Whereas people in Hong Kong who enjoy a Western like environment are on the fringe of losing more of their freedoms to a country and regime which have proven over and over again, world opinion does not matter.
It certainly does not matter to the leaders of the tech industry we discuss here daily as they all trip over themselves to accommodate China's leadership by keeping manufacturing there and changing software to let that same regime to deny their people more rights and privacy.
I don't even want to start on the third world environment, where your primary concern is keeping you and your family alive.
Priorities please, reality please. Quit parroting the press and look at the world
My girlfriend is from HK and she is very intense these days. She is very well educated and comes from a wealthy family. However, she feels a strong connection to HK, even-though she is not living there for over 10 years already (and does not want to return).
I have asked her about her emotions and feelings. To quote her. She says that she hates the Chinese. She hates China and all people living there. She feels that all actions that are linked to the Chinese government (such as the current law) are an attack on her country. Thus, she is posting a lot of biased and super heavy crap on social media these days and is full of hate against the police (who are ironically also Hong Kong people, but she does not care).
What we see there is just a terrible eruption of anti-China emotions. People need to vent.
Ironically, my girlfriend is also blaming the "rich Chinese" who are "coming to HK and buying all property, which prices out HK people". At the same time, her family owns X apartments in HK and in mainland China.
The difference is that the US government isn't known for disappearing thousands of dissidents without trial and the president has a term limit. It's really not the same at all.
I'm largely ignorant to the politics involved, but aren't these protests against extradition to mainland China? I imagine there's a social identity at play here that American's don't have.
Police brutality is pure shit and has to be internally investigated and transparently resolved.
However, I dislike the current biased image and video reporting on Hong Kong protests. I understand that this plays perfectly into the current anti-China narrative, but we should be aware that such things are never one-sided and simple.
There is a lot of shit going on from both sides: police and violent protesters. To make a balance to the highly inacceptable police behaviour, please also find footage speaking against violent protesters:
The moment when it escalated (the protestors goal was to storm the building, police was behaving in a de-escalative way by withdrawing, while being attacked by objects thrown into the police lines): https://www.twitch.tv/videos/437882587?t=03h05m00s
Again, all this does NOT excuse any tit for toe police brutality attack. But I am a believer of fair and balanced reporting and I want to see both sides.
In the interest of being fair and balanced, I often account for the imbalance of power, or else we wouldn't be seeing any conflict at all. Often the threat of violence is enough to coerce, and that doesn't get coverage. So when there is violent protests, I'm going to give more lenience to the group with far less power and force.
The sentiment is commendable. However, the way you've framed the "both sides" argument is a bit misleading.
Hardly any bricks were thrown. It is also a daft comparison, as the police were armed up for days with extremely powerful weapons. The asymmetry in terms of preparedness and armaments is off the charts.
"The moment when it escalated" is also not quite right as it is missing the context where, on Sunday night / Monday morning, the police attacked protesters with an extreme degree of violence.
Underneath any society there is violence. If you don't pay your taxes, eventually they will forcefully put you to jail.
Now, the default is not violence. These protests started peacefully. But when they are ignored, violence becomes necessary. We are all animals after all, and as such we don't go down without a fight.
Yes, I felt something in tune with that. I sympathize with people protesting the China machine taking over. But storming a parliament rarely ends well, and I respect substantial efforts to prevent that, especially in a somewhat functioning democracy such as Hong Kong still is.
Yes, Americans are #1 in the world for police violence. And congratulations to us!
edit: I earlier said that this was the first time HK used teargas/rubber bullets, which is inaccurate. the important thing is that this is still violence, just because the US beats everyone in terms of sheer scale/frequency/intensity of police violence doesn't mean that this isn't police violence.
[+] [-] ChrisBland|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] germinalphrase|6 years ago|reply
Many records can be made, but can they also be shared widely enough to maintain political pressure? Maybe not, if the population is dependent on government controlled internet infrastructure. This makes Starlink more interesting. How do you prevent your population from using foreign built satellite internet if that country should choose to make it freely available to your citizens? Do you simply lose control? Do you try to rebuild/force roll out a proprietary, non-interoperable telecommunications system?
After seeing the impact of telecommunications and social media propaganda on recent world events (for instance, the Arab Spring) - I’m sure there are smart people thinking about how to plug populations into the internet against the desires of the home country. Satellite based internet seems like an obvious solution, but maybe it’s not even as complicated as that.
[+] [-] tedivm|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] estherv|6 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] rkapsoro|6 years ago|reply
For the last two decades, China has been testing for any response on the part of the British to encroachments on HK's autonomy. Britain has largely remained mum, failing to call out China on increasing violations of the Joint Declaration and the Basic Law.
Then things really accelerated with the premiership of Xi Jinping, and those tests have come thicker and faster.
While Britain doesn't necessarily have a large amount of leverage these days with its own problems going on, taking a principled stand on things in the public eye is not without its benefits.
[+] [-] pm90|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] JumpCrisscross|6 years ago|reply
Sure it does. It could probably get a small coalition of American and possible European forces to facilitate an evacuation of the city for anyone who wants to leave, to Hong Kong, the U.K. or the United States. There is a lot of human capital in Hong Kong, capital that relies on competent government, fair courts and a government with a legitimate mandate.
This isn’t happening because domestic populations in the West aren’t wholly tuned into Hong Kong’s situation.
[+] [-] nabla9|6 years ago|reply
The politics in HK pseudo-democracy seems complex. Is there any way to democratically remove pro-Beijing camp from the power? Unless there is, it seems like the government just has to weather the storm.
[+] [-] my_username_is_|6 years ago|reply
Some relevant wiki articles:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_NPCSC_Decision_on_Hong_Ko...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legislative_Council_of_Hong_Ko...
[+] [-] usaar333|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] exabrial|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] megous|6 years ago|reply
For example: People in EU can see footage of drowning people trying to cross the mediteranean sea, and react by punishing the orgnizations who try to help.
Really, the interpretation of events matters much much more, than some footage.
[+] [-] digianarchist|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pm90|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pastyboy|6 years ago|reply
Feel very sorry for the HK citizens but there is nothing the UK can do, HK being returned to China was seen as part of the end of UK influence which (people wanted?), meaning we have 0 influence now.
However being under the sphere of China's political surveillance system is clearly not what anybody wanted.
I noted with interest how citizens binned all digital methods of payment and comms to avoid be prosecuted for being at the demonstrations retrospectively and presumably extradited to some prison factory in China if the extradition dictat gets through.
Anyway IMHO Trump has inadvertently tried to reset the balance and caused the Chinese alot of problems by starving them of tech know how and trade. But as we know Presidents come and go - Communist China is eternal - they will just wait for the next leader to turn around and sell out everyone.
[+] [-] throwawayctyga3|6 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] unknown|6 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] kenneth|6 years ago|reply
In Hong Kong, the whole population is united against the government. The territory is democratic on paper, but no longer in practice and basically run by the CCP.
(Note, recently moved from the US to HK and went to see the protests for myself yesterday, though I didn't actively participate)
[+] [-] codezero|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Leary|6 years ago|reply
[1]https://www.hkupop.hku.hk/english/popexpress/ce2017/cl/cecom...
[+] [-] kmonsen|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] one_plus_|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nsajko|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] supercall|6 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] Shivetya|6 years ago|reply
to be honest, just what in the hell do people in Western nations have to protest about? Not enough screen time? Someone driving a nicer car. The Western world is stupidly well off to the point they have to invent offenses! Whereas people in Hong Kong who enjoy a Western like environment are on the fringe of losing more of their freedoms to a country and regime which have proven over and over again, world opinion does not matter.
It certainly does not matter to the leaders of the tech industry we discuss here daily as they all trip over themselves to accommodate China's leadership by keeping manufacturing there and changing software to let that same regime to deny their people more rights and privacy.
I don't even want to start on the third world environment, where your primary concern is keeping you and your family alive.
Priorities please, reality please. Quit parroting the press and look at the world
[+] [-] godzillabrennus|6 years ago|reply
The USA has a politically incorrect orange man in the White House who gets offended easily.
Not sure how you draw parallels here but happy to understand better.
[+] [-] 88840-8855|6 years ago|reply
I have asked her about her emotions and feelings. To quote her. She says that she hates the Chinese. She hates China and all people living there. She feels that all actions that are linked to the Chinese government (such as the current law) are an attack on her country. Thus, she is posting a lot of biased and super heavy crap on social media these days and is full of hate against the police (who are ironically also Hong Kong people, but she does not care).
What we see there is just a terrible eruption of anti-China emotions. People need to vent.
Ironically, my girlfriend is also blaming the "rich Chinese" who are "coming to HK and buying all property, which prices out HK people". At the same time, her family owns X apartments in HK and in mainland China.
[+] [-] hkai|6 years ago|reply
Imagine if US was planning to send people suspected of offending Kim Jong Un into North Korea.
[+] [-] Macross8299|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Normal_gaussian|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] SketchySeaBeast|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] shakyshakyshaky|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] 88840-8855|6 years ago|reply
However, I dislike the current biased image and video reporting on Hong Kong protests. I understand that this plays perfectly into the current anti-China narrative, but we should be aware that such things are never one-sided and simple.
There is a lot of shit going on from both sides: police and violent protesters. To make a balance to the highly inacceptable police behaviour, please also find footage speaking against violent protesters:
Protestors "arming up": https://i.redd.it/faobvwh4qx331.jpg
Protestors beating up a police man: https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/bzza2h/peaceful_p...
The moment when it escalated (the protestors goal was to storm the building, police was behaving in a de-escalative way by withdrawing, while being attacked by objects thrown into the police lines): https://www.twitch.tv/videos/437882587?t=03h05m00s
Coverage of protestors behaving aggressively: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQfOfIAexzw&feature=youtu.be
Again, all this does NOT excuse any tit for toe police brutality attack. But I am a believer of fair and balanced reporting and I want to see both sides.
[+] [-] avar|6 years ago|reply
This is like saying that a fair and balanced account of WWII must include a discussion of the Jews being unruly train passengers.
[+] [-] Vraxx|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] computerfriend|6 years ago|reply
Hardly any bricks were thrown. It is also a daft comparison, as the police were armed up for days with extremely powerful weapons. The asymmetry in terms of preparedness and armaments is off the charts.
"The moment when it escalated" is also not quite right as it is missing the context where, on Sunday night / Monday morning, the police attacked protesters with an extreme degree of violence.
[+] [-] joaomacp|6 years ago|reply
Now, the default is not violence. These protests started peacefully. But when they are ignored, violence becomes necessary. We are all animals after all, and as such we don't go down without a fight.
[+] [-] jacobush|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Mikeb85|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] huac|6 years ago|reply
edit: I earlier said that this was the first time HK used teargas/rubber bullets, which is inaccurate. the important thing is that this is still violence, just because the US beats everyone in terms of sheer scale/frequency/intensity of police violence doesn't mean that this isn't police violence.
[+] [-] pwinnski|6 years ago|reply
If so, that's preposterous. Both can be heavy-handed!
If not, what is the point of your comment?
[+] [-] wnevets|6 years ago|reply
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism