Speaking from years of experience working as an ER nurse in the Chicago ghetto...
He drew a short straw on the weapon of choice. .22 caliber slugs tend to bounce around inside a person. Anything carrying more energy would likely have shattered his scapula, and gone clean through him. The energy of the slug wouldn't have been used up bouncing around his chest.
I took care of a person shot in the ankle with a .22. The entrance wound was in his ankle and the exit wound was in his groin. Another client had a single hole in his skull with no exit wound. Needless to say, the poor sap didn't do well after having a slug rattle around inside his skull for a while.
But I digress. I just finished watching the first season of The Wire tonight. It reminded me a lot of my stint in Chicago, and I guess I have ballistics on my mind. Back to coding...
Aside from the ease of sound suppressing them, and the small size of the weapons, there is a reason some of the best hit squads in the world use the .22lr!
Admittedly, a .22WMR is pretty much a different animal than the .22lr. Out of a rifle, it would have probably been a through and through, assuming a FMJ bullet -- you'd probably get 2000fps for a 40gr. A JSP might not have, and out of a Ruger Single Six, it's a lot closer to a really hot .22lr rifle.
My limited first-ass experience: I got hit by a 9mm FMJ ricochet. Someone put a round into a concrete floor near me, and the bullet broke apart and a piece hit me, or a piece of concrete hit me in the back of the thigh; it left a mark, but didn't break the skin; we found the bullet completely deformed with the jacket shredded in several pieces). The worst part was the sound; despite shooting a lot, it was the first time I'd ever been next to a firearm fired inside a 3m x 2m x 3m concrete room without wearing hearing protection. I also had a sore throat from yelling at the guy for the next ~15 minutes. Strangely, I wasn't actually afraid until the next day (when I realized how easy it would have been for the guy to have shot me in the leg instead, or for the ricochet to have hit me somewhere important nearby, etc.)
Temporary deafness (wax basically protects your ear from further damage by blocking the ear canal; I used hydrogen peroxide to clean it out later, and let a medic look at it with an otoscope to make sure the eardrum wasn't too damaged).
The whole experience made me 1) trust people even less and 2) want to become a certified emt or paramedic at some point, mainly to deal with trauma.
I have a similar anecdote, and strangely enough, a similar reaction.
A group of us were preparing for an IDPA match at a local gun range. One of our most experienced members got a little too complacent and was joking with a friend after finishing a course of fire. He ignored the range safety officer standing next to him. He didn't clear his weapon before he holstered it, and as he holstered it, his hand slipped and the weapon discharged.
We all thought he was fine, and so did he. The range safety officer was in the middle of yelling at him when one of the other members noticed that the guy was bleeding pretty heavily from his right leg. He'd given himself a nice 9mm through-and-through wound to the calf.
The round didn't hit anything important, and we got the bleeding stopped and him off to a hospital without much problem.
A few weeks later, before our next shoot, our group met with a local paramedic and an ER doctor for an informal crash course in gunshot trauma treatment.
About fifteen years ago I read a book summarizing research into the effects of different types and calibers of handguns and handgun ammunition. (Long story short: Clinton was trying to ban semiautomatic handguns or something, so my dad developed a sudden interest in buying a gun, and he borrowed some books from a friend who was quite an enthusiast.) The study was a survey of thousands of police reports on shootings, and it was done by a law enforcement guy to help law enforcement departments make an intelligent decision about what kinds of guns and ammo to standardize on.
He provided a lot of statistics and made some recommendations, but the overriding theme and message of the book was that the result of shooting someone, or being shot, is unpredictable no matter what kind of weapon is involved. Some examples:
A fatal bullet through the heart can leave a guy up and shooting for over ten seconds -- obviously an eternity for a law enforcement officer in a point-blank shootout.
A guy can get shot and not know it. Police officers are trained to check themselves carefully when any shots are fired, because it has happened that officers thought they were unharmed, went home, laid down to rest, and bled to death.
A guy can be in a shootout and THINK he got shot, and it turns out there's not a mark on him. They get knocked over, feel intense pain, cry out, etc. There were enough of these cases that the researchers were able to find some involving officers who were previously decorated for valor and had in fact been shot before.
A guy can get shot multiple times with a powerful weapon and get lucky, or he can get shot with a tiny weapon and get unlucky. I still remember the story used to illustrate this: a fight between roommates got ugly, and one guy shot the other six times in the chest with a .45. The second guy went to his attic, found his great-grandfather's Civil War-era relic small caliber revolver (something like a .22), went back downstairs, and shot his roommate through the heart, killing him. Forty-eight hours later, his desire for medical care overcame his aversion to getting caught, and he walked into an emergency room. He recovered completely.
The book had a lot of complicated reasoning about the trade-offs involved in choosing handguns and ammunition and made some strong recommendations, but I don't remember any of the specifics. I just remember the author stressing over and over again not to expect any particular result when you shoot somebody.
Here's a PDF analyzing the effectiveness of firearms. It was written in 1989 so it is a bit out of date. Perhaps someone with more experience with firearms can check to see if the article is still relevant.
It does confirm that "Even if the heart is instantly destroyed, there is sufficient oxygen in the brain to support full and complete voluntary action for 10-15 seconds".
I cannot help but believe that, in the story of the roommates' fight, the calibers of the handguns involved has been inadvertently swapped. The story then becomes much more credible.
Most civil war revolvers are .36 and .44 (very close to .45) and one shot to the heart would easily be fatal. It is not unheard of for someone to suffer multiple .22 shots to the chest yet suffer little injury. However it _is_ simply unheard of for someone to suffer six .45 shots to the chest yet walk around for days.
Doc with a degree in physics, previously a weapons and anti-terrorism officer on an aircraft carrier and recently (a year ago) took the combined forces combat casualty care course, and have done a few trauma rotations in inner-city ERs (New Orleans and Norfolk).
Chapter 1 of the Emergency War Surgery Manual (updated in 2006 to collect lessons learned from Iraq and Afghanistan) dedicates Chapter 1 to dispelling misconceptions about injuries. The science comes down on the side of the cop answering in Google: the weapon is of little use in predicting the outcome.
"... took the combined forces combat casualty care course, and have done a few trauma rotations in inner-city ERs (New Orleans and Norfolk) ..."
Interesting read. Knowing "how" to react and "reacting" in a appropriate, timely manner in a chaotic environment is a big jump even with the right kind of practice (as opposed to fake practice: http://bootload.posterous.com/through-my-eyes-fake-practice ) especially at the first response end. How do you train for the gap between working in calm controlled environments to chaotic ones?
More than the shotgun (I would spect to die and Im not very curious on that matter) what really intrigues me is what would I feel after 10 years of zero sexual activity.
Sexual feelings are really strong, that has to cause real pain through the years, I dont know if being grateful of being alive could easily overcome them
I know an ex-intelligence officer. He's been shot multiple times, and says that getting shot really hurts. I assume it was even worse than usual for him since he was in the field and couldn't quite waltz into the nearby hospital for treatment.
He also says getting shot is worse when you're running away from someone than when it takes you by surprise. He said some other things, but I don't really remember them.
I've had a pneumothorax - the collapsed lung part of his experience - which required major surgery and a painful recuperation. That was awful enough on its own but was only a tiny part of what he experienced. Yikes.
I've had a pneumomediastinum - similar thing but right next to my heart. Pretty scary just having a massive pain in your chest and not knowing what's wrong. I was lucky though and didn't need any surgery and it just cleared up on its own.
I've had three (all spontaneous). The first one was pretty serious and they had to put in a chest tube in a bit of a hurry, so nothing aside from a small amount of topical anesthetic. Seeing them stuff several inches of a metal tube directly into your chest is like being shot in slow motion.
If you do a google search to find out who this guy is you'll discover that this story has been copied in a number of different answer sites and blogs for the last 5 years.
But no info on who this is or the backstory on the context of why he got shot.
Yeah, I scrolled down hoping it would say. Remarkable none the less. Makes me very glad (scrap that, thank god) I live in the UK where carrying deadly weapons isn't seen as a right.
Just have to say, before reading all of this, REALLY glad this many HN readers and posters are into this topic. Thought I was the only nut that loved technology and firearms, guess I was wrong.
I am trying to find an answer here.
I was shot by a .22 from some kind of semi auto pistol.
It was night on a porch with 1 60watt light on.
I rushed to the door after hearing my daughter screaming opened the screen to see a boy on the porch turn toward me with a semi hand gun in his right hand.
He was 1-2 feet away.as I saw the gun coming around to shoot me.
I knew I had to get the gun and reached for it with intense urgency.
I saw a flash and felt something hit my upper chest HARD.and heard a 'pop'
I remember thinking I failed horribly and was going to die.
The next thing I remember I was chasing him down the street hitting him with the butt of the gun until all I was hitting him with was the barrel.
...much happened..
As I was calling 911 very distressed I told them I had been shot -- but looking down I could see no blood and no hole in my white cotton shirt..
The police recovered a .22 slug a couple feet inside the door to the left (door opens to the right) ..and no I have never owned a .22 and the slug in no way belonged on the floor.
I later found what looked like a lead colored smudge mark above a button hole on my white shirt and my chest was bright red behind that spot.
How the heck did that .22 not enter my chest?
I had a thick cotton work shirt on with a tee shirt on beneath it -- But that is not enough to block a .22 in my experience.
?Anyone?
This happened 4 days ago so my recollection is fairly fresh.
Foot pounds are a commonly used unit of energy when discussing small projectiles such as bullets, pellets, arrows and bolts. I believe the author's use of "foot pounds per square inch" was an error.
WolframAlpha calculates the energy of a 40 grain bullet at 1550 feet per second to be 213.3 foot pounds, not 324. Winchester claims that a 40 grain .22 magnum bullet from a rifle-length barrel exits the muzzle at 1910 feet per second and has 324 foot pounds of kinetic energy. WolframAlpha agrees.
Energy per area? A foot-pound is a unit of energy, analogous to a Joule, defined as the amount of energy required to apply one pound of force over a distance of one foot.
I can see a use for such a unit; it's just not one I've ever encountered before.
I learned by talking to law enforcement types that used to hang around our computer store that unlike the "violent ballet" in movies most gunfights unfold with both combatants clumsily emptying their weapons in each others general direction, then staggering out to wait for the paramedics.
It depends entirely on where they're hit, and how much adrenaline and man-made drugs are in their blood stream. But as a common saying goes, "it's a gun, not a death ray." It's surprising - shocking even - how much damage some people can take and still keep going.
There is so much anecdotal evidence in this thread. I thought that the HN community would have a greater adversion to firearms as even their ownership by a community increases the chance of fatal violence.
Your heard it here first. Being shot once feels like being shot three times. But is it linear? If I was shot 3 times would it feel like 9 times or even more?
[+] [-] iamelgringo|15 years ago|reply
He drew a short straw on the weapon of choice. .22 caliber slugs tend to bounce around inside a person. Anything carrying more energy would likely have shattered his scapula, and gone clean through him. The energy of the slug wouldn't have been used up bouncing around his chest.
I took care of a person shot in the ankle with a .22. The entrance wound was in his ankle and the exit wound was in his groin. Another client had a single hole in his skull with no exit wound. Needless to say, the poor sap didn't do well after having a slug rattle around inside his skull for a while.
But I digress. I just finished watching the first season of The Wire tonight. It reminded me a lot of my stint in Chicago, and I guess I have ballistics on my mind. Back to coding...
[+] [-] rdl|15 years ago|reply
Admittedly, a .22WMR is pretty much a different animal than the .22lr. Out of a rifle, it would have probably been a through and through, assuming a FMJ bullet -- you'd probably get 2000fps for a 40gr. A JSP might not have, and out of a Ruger Single Six, it's a lot closer to a really hot .22lr rifle.
[+] [-] rdl|15 years ago|reply
My limited first-ass experience: I got hit by a 9mm FMJ ricochet. Someone put a round into a concrete floor near me, and the bullet broke apart and a piece hit me, or a piece of concrete hit me in the back of the thigh; it left a mark, but didn't break the skin; we found the bullet completely deformed with the jacket shredded in several pieces). The worst part was the sound; despite shooting a lot, it was the first time I'd ever been next to a firearm fired inside a 3m x 2m x 3m concrete room without wearing hearing protection. I also had a sore throat from yelling at the guy for the next ~15 minutes. Strangely, I wasn't actually afraid until the next day (when I realized how easy it would have been for the guy to have shot me in the leg instead, or for the ricochet to have hit me somewhere important nearby, etc.)
Temporary deafness (wax basically protects your ear from further damage by blocking the ear canal; I used hydrogen peroxide to clean it out later, and let a medic look at it with an otoscope to make sure the eardrum wasn't too damaged).
The whole experience made me 1) trust people even less and 2) want to become a certified emt or paramedic at some point, mainly to deal with trauma.
[+] [-] archon|15 years ago|reply
A group of us were preparing for an IDPA match at a local gun range. One of our most experienced members got a little too complacent and was joking with a friend after finishing a course of fire. He ignored the range safety officer standing next to him. He didn't clear his weapon before he holstered it, and as he holstered it, his hand slipped and the weapon discharged.
We all thought he was fine, and so did he. The range safety officer was in the middle of yelling at him when one of the other members noticed that the guy was bleeding pretty heavily from his right leg. He'd given himself a nice 9mm through-and-through wound to the calf.
The round didn't hit anything important, and we got the bleeding stopped and him off to a hospital without much problem.
A few weeks later, before our next shoot, our group met with a local paramedic and an ER doctor for an informal crash course in gunshot trauma treatment.
[+] [-] dkarl|15 years ago|reply
He provided a lot of statistics and made some recommendations, but the overriding theme and message of the book was that the result of shooting someone, or being shot, is unpredictable no matter what kind of weapon is involved. Some examples:
A fatal bullet through the heart can leave a guy up and shooting for over ten seconds -- obviously an eternity for a law enforcement officer in a point-blank shootout.
A guy can get shot and not know it. Police officers are trained to check themselves carefully when any shots are fired, because it has happened that officers thought they were unharmed, went home, laid down to rest, and bled to death.
A guy can be in a shootout and THINK he got shot, and it turns out there's not a mark on him. They get knocked over, feel intense pain, cry out, etc. There were enough of these cases that the researchers were able to find some involving officers who were previously decorated for valor and had in fact been shot before.
A guy can get shot multiple times with a powerful weapon and get lucky, or he can get shot with a tiny weapon and get unlucky. I still remember the story used to illustrate this: a fight between roommates got ugly, and one guy shot the other six times in the chest with a .45. The second guy went to his attic, found his great-grandfather's Civil War-era relic small caliber revolver (something like a .22), went back downstairs, and shot his roommate through the heart, killing him. Forty-eight hours later, his desire for medical care overcame his aversion to getting caught, and he walked into an emergency room. He recovered completely.
The book had a lot of complicated reasoning about the trade-offs involved in choosing handguns and ammunition and made some strong recommendations, but I don't remember any of the specifics. I just remember the author stressing over and over again not to expect any particular result when you shoot somebody.
[+] [-] G_Wen|15 years ago|reply
Here's a PDF analyzing the effectiveness of firearms. It was written in 1989 so it is a bit out of date. Perhaps someone with more experience with firearms can check to see if the article is still relevant.
It does confirm that "Even if the heart is instantly destroyed, there is sufficient oxygen in the brain to support full and complete voluntary action for 10-15 seconds".
[+] [-] giardini|15 years ago|reply
Most civil war revolvers are .36 and .44 (very close to .45) and one shot to the heart would easily be fatal. It is not unheard of for someone to suffer multiple .22 shots to the chest yet suffer little injury. However it _is_ simply unheard of for someone to suffer six .45 shots to the chest yet walk around for days.
[+] [-] Nekojoe|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nostrademons|15 years ago|reply
http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=467321
[+] [-] tomerico|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] niels_olson|15 years ago|reply
Chapter 1 of the Emergency War Surgery Manual (updated in 2006 to collect lessons learned from Iraq and Afghanistan) dedicates Chapter 1 to dispelling misconceptions about injuries. The science comes down on the side of the cop answering in Google: the weapon is of little use in predicting the outcome.
http://www.bordeninstitute.army.mil/other_pub/ews.html
[+] [-] bootload|15 years ago|reply
Interesting read. Knowing "how" to react and "reacting" in a appropriate, timely manner in a chaotic environment is a big jump even with the right kind of practice (as opposed to fake practice: http://bootload.posterous.com/through-my-eyes-fake-practice ) especially at the first response end. How do you train for the gap between working in calm controlled environments to chaotic ones?
Cudo's, HM's ~ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Navy_Hospital_Cor... are well trained because sometimes they are the closest to medical aid you get and as such are much respected.
[+] [-] joakin|15 years ago|reply
More than the shotgun (I would spect to die and Im not very curious on that matter) what really intrigues me is what would I feel after 10 years of zero sexual activity.
Sexual feelings are really strong, that has to cause real pain through the years, I dont know if being grateful of being alive could easily overcome them
[+] [-] chloraphil|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] GFischer|15 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] cookiecaper|15 years ago|reply
He also says getting shot is worse when you're running away from someone than when it takes you by surprise. He said some other things, but I don't really remember them.
[+] [-] GiraffeNecktie|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mwilcox|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mtr|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rwhitman|15 years ago|reply
But no info on who this is or the backstory on the context of why he got shot.
[+] [-] freshfey|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] marknutter|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rokhayakebe|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] geoffw8|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] msquared|15 years ago|reply
happy sigh
[+] [-] tome|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] EBNV|15 years ago|reply
I later found what looked like a lead colored smudge mark above a button hole on my white shirt and my chest was bright red behind that spot.
How the heck did that .22 not enter my chest? I had a thick cotton work shirt on with a tee shirt on beneath it -- But that is not enough to block a .22 in my experience.
?Anyone?
This happened 4 days ago so my recollection is fairly fresh.
[+] [-] colanderman|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Zak|15 years ago|reply
WolframAlpha calculates the energy of a 40 grain bullet at 1550 feet per second to be 213.3 foot pounds, not 324. Winchester claims that a 40 grain .22 magnum bullet from a rifle-length barrel exits the muzzle at 1910 feet per second and has 324 foot pounds of kinetic energy. WolframAlpha agrees.
[+] [-] epochwolf|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] amalcon|15 years ago|reply
I can see a use for such a unit; it's just not one I've ever encountered before.
[+] [-] unknown|15 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] mfukar|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] noonespecial|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] grammaton|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kondro|15 years ago|reply
There is so much anecdotal evidence in this thread. I thought that the HN community would have a greater adversion to firearms as even their ownership by a community increases the chance of fatal violence.
[+] [-] unknown|15 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] JCTony|15 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] napierzaza|15 years ago|reply