I ran a very affordable car share platform for years. One gentleman used it at night to study in.
We suspected his claims of it being a comfortable place to get work done didn't fit with renting it from say midnight to 5 but upon an "investigation" we saw books and papers on the dash, the dome lights on, you know, deep study.
Still think it's kinda strange... He was middle aged and married. My theory was he had a snoring wife at home and was taking night school or something.
There was another gentleman who would book the cars at night and also go nowhere for hours. Upon investigating him he was listening to fiction books on tape... Relaxing with the seat back and enjoying the novel. Rented around the same time almost every evening.
I don't think it's strange. I often prefer to work or study in the car compared to using busy (library) or expensive (cafe/coworking space) alternatives. Home is reserved for relaxation and family, and I learned when I used to commute a long way by car that it serves as a mobile private and separate space that's perfect for self improvement and learning.
This is a problem with big cities. There are no public spaces. Even less private spaces for free.
Recently, I was in Barcelona and was surprised to see a bunch of teenagers cramped together sitting on the pavement in a shopping mall. At first, as an old person that I am, I thought that they were up to something. But, they were having fun, laughing and having a good time. The only park had no trees and few banks anyway. So, it was better to sit on the floor somewhere in the shadow that to sit on the floor under the sun.
Even more interesting was the fact that the place had a lot of empty chairs. But, those ones were for paying customers.
If it is so hard to find a place to sit with friends much more difficult is to find a place where to sit alone. Some libraries are ditching the focus on books to just offer a space to study together or alone.
If I have criticised USA cities for being designed for cars European (and Japanese also) cities are designed for businesses.
Stockholm is one of the few cities where I have seen a focus on parks and outdoor pastimes. Ironically, it is only available two or three months a year as usually is too cold to be confortably sitting outsite.
There’s a ton of public space in Tokyo. To me this reads as:
- people pay for car sharing (generally it requires a monthly fee plus a small usage fee per hour)
- occasionally people that already pay the monthly fee take advantage of a nearby available car to sit in or nap in.
This isn’t a widespread trend where public space is so limited one needs to rent a car to sit in.
The napping explanation is probably the most common. It’s normal to see people napping in vehicles at midday, especially delivery drivers and construction workers. I can see the appeal of hopping in a nearby car-share car to nap as it would be more comfortable than the seating one can normally find.
I do something like this with my own car (not a rental). I live in a very hot climate and don't have AC, so my home office is essentially useless in the summer. Recently I bought a Tesla Model 3, and I'll just take my laptop out to the car, sit in the passenger seat and select "Keep climate on" from my phone. I never felt comfortable doing this with an ICE car due to engine vibration, noise and stink.
Sometimes I break up my work day by going to Starbucks and working there, but if I can't find a seat, I can just bring my drink back to my car. It's not ideal--there's no table--but it's not bad.
This is pretty amusing but highlights the distortions caused by the huge implicit rent subsidy that car parking usually receives. Where else can you hire private space in the centre of a city on an hourly basis for the rates that car sharing companies charge?
Not the case in Japan. All cars must have an assigned parking space registered with the police. Apartments are not required to have parking spaces. Thus the daily charge to rent a car space in the middle of Tokyo is usually twenty or more dollars. These car sharing services all have dedicated parking spaces for each rental car.
This the parking space does not carry a marginal cost for the operator. Rather the problem with not driving is the lost marginal charge for milage.
Tokyo also has anti idling policies. Thus these car rental services will not want to be associated with such an illegal activity.
> huge implicit rent subsidy that car parking usually receives
I don't think car parking gets a rent subsidy in Japan. They don't have the US-style zoning with required parking spots per square meter, and when you buy a car you have to prove you have a monthly parking spot (which can be quite expensive due to the land cost)
> Where else can you hire private space in the centre of a city on an hourly basis for the rates that car sharing companies charge
As the article mentions in passing, cybercafes/manga cafes cost around the same as car parking, and you get a private booth, WiFi, sometimes free soft drinks etc. Some have showers and other facilities. http://www.live-matsuya.co.jp/anchor/images/anchor_01.jpg
Sounds like an opportunity to me. Have a rule that you charge by Km travelled or fuel used, whichever is greatest $-wise. Also have a car where the interior can be quickly converted into a bed...a double bed.
Bonus points for electrochromic glass for privacy. The glass can only be activated when the car is fully stopped with the handbrake engaged.
Uses: sleep, sex, rest, air-conditioned space, heated space, eating space, electrical outlet for phone or laptop, quiet room, change room...oh and a car. Basically anything a hotel can be but also portable.
Add automated driving to the equation and who knows what kind of a beast the industry will be in a decade.
Decouple the environmental controls and electrical subsystem from the engine by using a separate electricity generator with a separate fuel supply. Use deep-cycle marine batteries as a buffer, and have the generator turn on to top them off when they get below a threshold. Meter the power usage for the generator, and charge for distance travelled and by power used.
A lot of owner-operator truckers have discrete electricity generators, because running the engine just for HVAC and electric power causes unnecessary maintenance costs. There are even truck stops that pipe in electricity, HVAC, and video channels through an umbilical that hangs down to one of the windows.
A miniaturized RV that is basically a stripped-down mobile motel room will also have a decent post-fleet-vehicle secondary market, as people buy them to live in full-time, or use more like a traditional RV, excepting that it can fit into a van-sized parking space.
Also, I'd just use blackout curtains or aluminum shutters instead of the electrochromic glass, and use a removable or retractable privacy barrier between the driver compartment and the private space. I'd rather use simple and reliable tech for simple requirements.
I work a side job doing medical work at events. Often these events go late into the night or even the whole night. I often have to struggle with do I drive home while sleepy and use a caffeine pill to help stay alert/awake, or do I try and sleep in my small car. I am 6'5" and drive a small kia rio so sleeping in my car sucks.
I would definitely consider using something like this! AirBnB and hotels cost much too much when I just want a few hours of sleep before driving home. Not to mention sometimes I finish early in the morning and getting something to sleep in during the day only is usually not possible.
On top of that sometimes I work a shift, then have a few hour gap before another shift. I am in a city an hour or two away from home so going home is not an option. Being able to have a private space I could just rest in or watch a movie would be incredibly nice.
We need private pod systems around cities. Unfortunately I could see them being abused.
I've struggled with similar issues before - when travelling, or out in a city, where to do some quiet work, or take a call, or speak to a group of colleagues?
I've explored short-term (i.e. hourly) office space rentals, but IME the low headline rates ("from...") become a lot higher when you dig into the specifics and have minimum spends. I'd happily pay $<=20-30 for a convenient small quiet office for an hour, but not $80+. I've also never found a service that offers anything like the low friction that (from the article) unlocking a car remotely would offer.
I wonder if this area is ready for some disruption...?
You mean disruption like: "park" a large number of trailers in cities, containing small office rooms, small apartments, hotel rooms, rows of lockers...whatever. Then rent out those and undercut other market participants which actually need to pay for the buildings and properties in which they operate, while you just "park" your relatively-cheap custom trailers in areas where this is free of charge.
In theory, co-working spaces should be able to supply this option. But the ones I've seen are barebones at best - temporary setups made out of plywood in old office buildings that would otherwise remain empty, big open spaces where you can rent a desk but only if you do it for at least a month, etc.
While IMO they could just as well divide the place up into smaller offices. Probably cost prohibitive though. As in cost for the end user, not for the co-working space.
In theory you can make a phone call anywhere nowadays, but often you want privacy to discuss something sensitive or a quiet background for professionalism's sake.
I'd love to see businesses have phone booths you could rent by the minute, although I don't know how viable that would be as a use of space in a major city.
The ninehours capsule hotel chain in Japan does offer desks in some of their locations for a rather reasonable price of ¥300 (about 3 dollars) per hour.
Anyone else hate car sharing services? Honestly I just found the experience increadibly stressful.
Before I go anywhere, is every little scratch and dent listed in the little handbook?
If I clip something in a carpark (like a bollard or tall curb) I've got to spend 30 minutes on the phone explaining it to the person on the other end then pay some hard to determine fee.
On my way back to the spot if I get caught in traffic there is another fine for being late.
That's before we get into the difficulty of how you'd do it with a small child with a pram and car seat etc.
Just spitballing here but it makes me think there should just be an option to rent a dinged up, scratched up car for cheaper. The policy would be like “Cosmetic damage ok. As long as there’s no functional damage, you’re good.” I personally don’t give a flying f—— if my rental car looks like a junkyard lot special, as long as it drives me safely to my destination. Plus it saves me stress if some dbag dings my rental in a parking lot.
I guess maybe the counter argument for this (other than rental companies fighting it because I’m sure they shadily draw in some revenue from gauging people on fees for cosmetic damage) is it might be harder to catch functional damage if you stop checking for cosmetic damage. Though, I’m not so sure that’s true.
I rented once from a cheap car hire once and was caught off guard by the sales assistant. Like he looked diligently for every scratch and ding. Afterwards, I could not sleep from the stress. Too worried about road debris and, pedestrians, and farm animals scratching the car. So the next morning I returned it and went to Hertz. The rule there is anything larger than a quarter is marked. That seems somewhat reasonable instead of going around the car with a flashlight.
When we scrapped our old '90ies Opel Astra we kept the passengers seat and made it into a funky-looking but insanely comfy regular chair at home by attaching it with some screws to a simple base made of wood, so it is high enough to sit it.
At some point my dad said he's sad we didn't keep the drivers seat as well.
I love Times Car Sharing and use it heavily, but I find the pricing structure a little bit obtuse:
There are various "packs" for example a 6 hour pack, 12 hour pack etc. The 6 hour pack means you don't get charged anything extra for fuel/kilometer. The other packs do charge you a fixed rate per kilometer.
There are also special packs at nighttime. The app doesn't really help you pick the best one for you or minimise your price.
Here's an example:
Book a car from 5.45 to 11.30. You're 15 minutes short of the 6 hour pack so you pay the basic time rate.
Now change the booking to 5.45 to 11.45. You now pay the 6 hour rate (4000 yen iirc).
Move the booking to 6 to midnight. Now you pay 2000 yen because it's night-time.
Overall I love the car sharing experience, it sure as hell beats paying 20,000 yen a month for a car parking space. I just wish they made this a bit clearer/easier to use.
These cars start at around 400 yen for 30 minutes so the love hotel is more expensive, and they typically want to rent for a block of a few hours, but pricing usually works out to around 1000 - 1500 yen ($10 - $15) per hour at a love hotel.
Of course, you get a real bed with a love hotel, so it might be worth the extra if all you want to do is sleep, though the walls aren't super soundproof.
I wonder how long it will take for 'cars' to appear that are technically roadworthy but have a better layout for this kind of thing, or maybe a double decker could be converted for the purpose.
At this very moment I am sitting in a dealer-provided loaner car by a strip mall, because I have to wait for my own car to be repaired and I need to make phone calls. There is no other space nearby where I can do that for love or money, including the dealership waiting room.
I asked for the loaner vehicle for this purpose specifically. The car has AC and privacy. I get it. I wish it also had a desk.
Sounds like people would pay for a small, readily-accessible private space. At first I thought this could be better served by having a proper space and building to house these spaces but maybe, unintentionally, parking a bunch of cars around for people to rent is actually a much lower barrier to entry than dealing with zoning and inspections and regulations.
It wouldn't have to be much larger, though it would probably need some kind of small A/C system, like you'd find on top of an RV. Put a bunch of batteries and/or a small genset under the seat area, a dropdown table on the door, a plug for power, and maybe optional 4/5G wifi. Add a credit card reader on the outside to take payment. Put a bunch on trailers and drop them off in places...
There's gotta be a reason why this hasn't been done already - none of the tech needed is that special, most of it is already "off the shelf". There must be some kind of laws or regulations preventing it?
Japan is an excellent place for visiting but not for living unless you luckily find a proper employer (might be yourself), which is also true to rental car. It's adventurous urban camping if you are a visitor.
Most of the cities in Japan are enough safe for adults to walk outside even at midnight, and there are konbinis for clothing and food. So going to a gym (for shower) + renting a car (for sleep) can be more reasonable than staying at a hotel, and maybe you will have a priceless experience when figuring out how to survive in a center of the city.
In reality, on the other hand, as this article says, the shared-car is a built-in system among the working poor. Laborers in Japan work too long, and their commute takes too long so the car is a savior to maximize their sleep time.
I am always surprised more young people won't buy cheap trailers or old RVs and just won't park it in free parking lot, would not be problem in many European countries and it beats rent in big cities of you have some savings to buy it, bonus points for using it for actually traveling in summer
I have my own apartment without mortgage but I am still considering buying some van, parking it in front of my residential building and using it as extremely cheap and easily accessible storage space. heck according laws car doesn't even need to have license plate, it just need to look like it's drive worthy, so not even yearly insurance fee
> I have my own apartment without mortgage but I am still considering buying some van, parking it in front of my residential building and using it as extremely cheap and easily accessible storage space.
If you're going to go that route, look into a used moving truck; much more space, easier to modify for storage (or if you want to go "tiny home" in the future), and likely much more secure (being a closed box in the back). They don't tend to be very expensive (although they also don't tend to have great mileage per gallon or litre of fuel - but neither do most vans of any good size).
> heck according laws car doesn't even need to have license plate, it just need to look like it's drive worthy, so not even yearly insurance fee
If you're in the United States, you might want to verify this. Usually, you need registration, plates and tags on a vehicle that isn't parked or used on private land. Your landlord may or may not be ok with having such a vehicle on their property. Insurance would be optional, but you might want to speak to your agent to find out whether your renter's policy would cover any losses from the van, or if you can get a separate rider for that - or if you need completely separate insurance coverage.
This certainly isn't a uniquely Japanese phenomenon, but I feel like it's definitely something I'd expect to hear about from Japan.
That touch of unconcerned practicality.
[+] [-] kristopolous|6 years ago|reply
We suspected his claims of it being a comfortable place to get work done didn't fit with renting it from say midnight to 5 but upon an "investigation" we saw books and papers on the dash, the dome lights on, you know, deep study.
Still think it's kinda strange... He was middle aged and married. My theory was he had a snoring wife at home and was taking night school or something.
There was another gentleman who would book the cars at night and also go nowhere for hours. Upon investigating him he was listening to fiction books on tape... Relaxing with the seat back and enjoying the novel. Rented around the same time almost every evening.
[+] [-] Blahah|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] closeparen|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] OrgNet|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] OrgNet|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] harlanji|6 years ago|reply
> Upon investigating him
Hella creepy. Glad you gave the business your all and learned valuable lessons.
[+] [-] kartan|6 years ago|reply
Recently, I was in Barcelona and was surprised to see a bunch of teenagers cramped together sitting on the pavement in a shopping mall. At first, as an old person that I am, I thought that they were up to something. But, they were having fun, laughing and having a good time. The only park had no trees and few banks anyway. So, it was better to sit on the floor somewhere in the shadow that to sit on the floor under the sun.
Even more interesting was the fact that the place had a lot of empty chairs. But, those ones were for paying customers.
If it is so hard to find a place to sit with friends much more difficult is to find a place where to sit alone. Some libraries are ditching the focus on books to just offer a space to study together or alone.
If I have criticised USA cities for being designed for cars European (and Japanese also) cities are designed for businesses.
Stockholm is one of the few cities where I have seen a focus on parks and outdoor pastimes. Ironically, it is only available two or three months a year as usually is too cold to be confortably sitting outsite.
[+] [-] johnwalkr|6 years ago|reply
This isn’t a widespread trend where public space is so limited one needs to rent a car to sit in.
The napping explanation is probably the most common. It’s normal to see people napping in vehicles at midday, especially delivery drivers and construction workers. I can see the appeal of hopping in a nearby car-share car to nap as it would be more comfortable than the seating one can normally find.
[+] [-] nn3|6 years ago|reply
There are lots of European cities with lots of parks, like Warsaw, Budapest, Prague.
[+] [-] Zanni|6 years ago|reply
Sometimes I break up my work day by going to Starbucks and working there, but if I can't find a seat, I can just bring my drink back to my car. It's not ideal--there's no table--but it's not bad.
[+] [-] zj45499|6 years ago|reply
What's wrong with purchasing an AC at home?
[+] [-] jnty|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Danieru|6 years ago|reply
This the parking space does not carry a marginal cost for the operator. Rather the problem with not driving is the lost marginal charge for milage.
Tokyo also has anti idling policies. Thus these car rental services will not want to be associated with such an illegal activity.
[+] [-] kalleboo|6 years ago|reply
I don't think car parking gets a rent subsidy in Japan. They don't have the US-style zoning with required parking spots per square meter, and when you buy a car you have to prove you have a monthly parking spot (which can be quite expensive due to the land cost)
> Where else can you hire private space in the centre of a city on an hourly basis for the rates that car sharing companies charge
As the article mentions in passing, cybercafes/manga cafes cost around the same as car parking, and you get a private booth, WiFi, sometimes free soft drinks etc. Some have showers and other facilities. http://www.live-matsuya.co.jp/anchor/images/anchor_01.jpg
[+] [-] icanhackit|6 years ago|reply
Bonus points for electrochromic glass for privacy. The glass can only be activated when the car is fully stopped with the handbrake engaged.
Uses: sleep, sex, rest, air-conditioned space, heated space, eating space, electrical outlet for phone or laptop, quiet room, change room...oh and a car. Basically anything a hotel can be but also portable.
Add automated driving to the equation and who knows what kind of a beast the industry will be in a decade.
[+] [-] logfromblammo|6 years ago|reply
A lot of owner-operator truckers have discrete electricity generators, because running the engine just for HVAC and electric power causes unnecessary maintenance costs. There are even truck stops that pipe in electricity, HVAC, and video channels through an umbilical that hangs down to one of the windows.
A miniaturized RV that is basically a stripped-down mobile motel room will also have a decent post-fleet-vehicle secondary market, as people buy them to live in full-time, or use more like a traditional RV, excepting that it can fit into a van-sized parking space.
Also, I'd just use blackout curtains or aluminum shutters instead of the electrochromic glass, and use a removable or retractable privacy barrier between the driver compartment and the private space. I'd rather use simple and reliable tech for simple requirements.
[+] [-] Fogest|6 years ago|reply
I would definitely consider using something like this! AirBnB and hotels cost much too much when I just want a few hours of sleep before driving home. Not to mention sometimes I finish early in the morning and getting something to sleep in during the day only is usually not possible.
On top of that sometimes I work a shift, then have a few hour gap before another shift. I am in a city an hour or two away from home so going home is not an option. Being able to have a private space I could just rest in or watch a movie would be incredibly nice.
We need private pod systems around cities. Unfortunately I could see them being abused.
[+] [-] mft_|6 years ago|reply
I've struggled with similar issues before - when travelling, or out in a city, where to do some quiet work, or take a call, or speak to a group of colleagues?
I've explored short-term (i.e. hourly) office space rentals, but IME the low headline rates ("from...") become a lot higher when you dig into the specifics and have minimum spends. I'd happily pay $<=20-30 for a convenient small quiet office for an hour, but not $80+. I've also never found a service that offers anything like the low friction that (from the article) unlocking a car remotely would offer.
I wonder if this area is ready for some disruption...?
[+] [-] Slartie|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Cthulhu_|6 years ago|reply
While IMO they could just as well divide the place up into smaller offices. Probably cost prohibitive though. As in cost for the end user, not for the co-working space.
[+] [-] smelendez|6 years ago|reply
In theory you can make a phone call anywhere nowadays, but often you want privacy to discuss something sensitive or a quiet background for professionalism's sake.
I'd love to see businesses have phone booths you could rent by the minute, although I don't know how viable that would be as a use of space in a major city.
[+] [-] nereye|6 years ago|reply
See https://ninehours.co.jp/kamata for example.
[+] [-] jeffrallen|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] VBprogrammer|6 years ago|reply
Before I go anywhere, is every little scratch and dent listed in the little handbook?
If I clip something in a carpark (like a bollard or tall curb) I've got to spend 30 minutes on the phone explaining it to the person on the other end then pay some hard to determine fee.
On my way back to the spot if I get caught in traffic there is another fine for being late.
That's before we get into the difficulty of how you'd do it with a small child with a pram and car seat etc.
[+] [-] khalilravanna|6 years ago|reply
I guess maybe the counter argument for this (other than rental companies fighting it because I’m sure they shadily draw in some revenue from gauging people on fees for cosmetic damage) is it might be harder to catch functional damage if you stop checking for cosmetic damage. Though, I’m not so sure that’s true.
[+] [-] yardie|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Theodores|6 years ago|reply
Never underestimate the value of a comfy seat.
[+] [-] LeonidasXIV|6 years ago|reply
At some point my dad said he's sad we didn't keep the drivers seat as well.
[+] [-] etatoby|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] flocial|6 years ago|reply
This quote struck me as strange since the price of gas is included in Times Car Share which is the biggest car share service.
https://share.timescar.jp/fare/use.html
[+] [-] laurieg|6 years ago|reply
There are various "packs" for example a 6 hour pack, 12 hour pack etc. The 6 hour pack means you don't get charged anything extra for fuel/kilometer. The other packs do charge you a fixed rate per kilometer.
There are also special packs at nighttime. The app doesn't really help you pick the best one for you or minimise your price.
Here's an example:
Book a car from 5.45 to 11.30. You're 15 minutes short of the 6 hour pack so you pay the basic time rate.
Now change the booking to 5.45 to 11.45. You now pay the 6 hour rate (4000 yen iirc).
Move the booking to 6 to midnight. Now you pay 2000 yen because it's night-time.
Overall I love the car sharing experience, it sure as hell beats paying 20,000 yen a month for a car parking space. I just wish they made this a bit clearer/easier to use.
[+] [-] rerx|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] hawski|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] baq|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] LudwigNagasena|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kurtisc|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Johnny555|6 years ago|reply
Of course, you get a real bed with a love hotel, so it might be worth the extra if all you want to do is sleep, though the walls aren't super soundproof.
[+] [-] ironic_ali|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] matthewfelgate|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] etatoby|6 years ago|reply
The future of rooms is they will be more like cars than rooms.
[+] [-] benj111|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kuu|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] thrifter|6 years ago|reply
Can someone explain this one to me? Is this a weird translation or do people in Japan actually do this?
[+] [-] evanweaver|6 years ago|reply
I asked for the loaner vehicle for this purpose specifically. The car has AC and privacy. I get it. I wish it also had a desk.
[+] [-] nkrisc|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] cr0sh|6 years ago|reply
Porto-Office?
It wouldn't have to be much larger, though it would probably need some kind of small A/C system, like you'd find on top of an RV. Put a bunch of batteries and/or a small genset under the seat area, a dropdown table on the door, a plug for power, and maybe optional 4/5G wifi. Add a credit card reader on the outside to take payment. Put a bunch on trailers and drop them off in places...
There's gotta be a reason why this hasn't been done already - none of the tech needed is that special, most of it is already "off the shelf". There must be some kind of laws or regulations preventing it?
[+] [-] ymkjp|6 years ago|reply
Most of the cities in Japan are enough safe for adults to walk outside even at midnight, and there are konbinis for clothing and food. So going to a gym (for shower) + renting a car (for sleep) can be more reasonable than staying at a hotel, and maybe you will have a priceless experience when figuring out how to survive in a center of the city.
In reality, on the other hand, as this article says, the shared-car is a built-in system among the working poor. Laborers in Japan work too long, and their commute takes too long so the car is a savior to maximize their sleep time.
[+] [-] Markoff|6 years ago|reply
I have my own apartment without mortgage but I am still considering buying some van, parking it in front of my residential building and using it as extremely cheap and easily accessible storage space. heck according laws car doesn't even need to have license plate, it just need to look like it's drive worthy, so not even yearly insurance fee
[+] [-] cr0sh|6 years ago|reply
If you're going to go that route, look into a used moving truck; much more space, easier to modify for storage (or if you want to go "tiny home" in the future), and likely much more secure (being a closed box in the back). They don't tend to be very expensive (although they also don't tend to have great mileage per gallon or litre of fuel - but neither do most vans of any good size).
> heck according laws car doesn't even need to have license plate, it just need to look like it's drive worthy, so not even yearly insurance fee
If you're in the United States, you might want to verify this. Usually, you need registration, plates and tags on a vehicle that isn't parked or used on private land. Your landlord may or may not be ok with having such a vehicle on their property. Insurance would be optional, but you might want to speak to your agent to find out whether your renter's policy would cover any losses from the van, or if you can get a separate rider for that - or if you need completely separate insurance coverage.
[+] [-] huffmsa|6 years ago|reply