Judge Gives E-Cigarette Makers 10 Months to Seek FDA Review

[d1zzy]

I hope this doesn't result in e-cigs getting banned in the US because that would be terrible. I live in the same house with someone who has been smoking since they were a teenager (quite common where we're from) and e-cigs has allowed them to stop smoking cigarettes which may or may not benefit them that much but it most certainly benefits me (no smell of smoke in the house, no second hand smoking, etc). They have tried quitting multiple times before and nicotine patches, gum, etc.

The article mentions that the group which filed a lawsuit is disputing the effectiveness of e-cigs as "smoking cessation" devices. From my personal experience they most definitely function.

[on_and_off]

My main issue with e-cigs is that they are heavily marketed to kids, for example with young sponsored influencers doing smoke tricks and other shit.

Thanks to e-cigs, teen cigarette (not e-cig) smoking has started increasing after decreasing for years. Teens that would have never started smoking are introduced to it with e-cigs.

I don't know how these 2 phenomenons balance out. Does the number of cigarette smokers moving to e-cigs counterbalance the number of younger people starting to smoke cigarettes because of it ?

In all cases, I have no issue with more studies on the direct impact on e-cigs themselves.

[mc32]

I think they should remain available to adults and for minors by Rx (if they got hooked on tobacco). But I certainly would like to see this better understood and regulated.

I don’t think they should be outright banned like SF is doing, but some regulation and understanding (sci studies) would be good.

[Nas808]

I smoked for 15 years and tried all the usual quitting aids many times. E-cigs were the only thing that worked for me, but I’m a bit concerned about the long term affects of vaping.

[doctorpangloss]

> I hope this doesn't result in e-cigs getting banned in the US because that would be terrible.

If there is unequivocal, unhacked evidence that e-cigarettes reduce mortality by a sensible comparison in adults, obviously nothing will be banned, but you ought to be able to see why this is a high bar to meet for children.

[wisty]

Nicotine has a very non-linear impact on health. While ecigs are about 10x better in terms of the amount of 2nd hand nicotine, I wouldn't call them safe. IIRC it takes extremely low nicotine levels to cause (temporary) circulatory problems.

[axaxs]

I'm happy for you, and those who've stopped smoking. That said, for me personally, ECigs have been a detriment. My city basically outlawed smoking, which was generally great. Then ECig users started smoking everywhere in place of cigarettes, and even less respectfully. I had people in my office constantly smoking them, even. My thoughts on both are the same - do what you want as long as it doesn't bother me. ECig users seem to ignore that here. As long as they are treated and regulated like cigarettes, I'm on board.

[ceejayoz]

The simple solution there seems to be making e-cigs available via a prescription as a smoking cessation/avoidance device.

[dmix]

Me and almost everyone I know who smoked quit using e-cigarettes and they are all adults. But my province (at least the prior party) is obsessed with making them harder and harder to find - at all - because 'think of the children'.

I bet the tobacco industry must love governments right now. They were getting seriously threatened for a moment there.

[andrepd]

The tobacco industry is pivoting hard to ecigs (in the developed world at least, in more corrupt and less regulated countries they are still happily pushing it on teenagers and lobbying to take down anti-tobacco laws and education drives).

It's disgusting. In the US, you've got a massive spike in the number of 12th grade smokers, for the first time in decades. Because ecigs aren't regulated, it's a free for all. The same techniques that worked so well to them in the "golden era" of cigarettes, they're out in force again but for ecigs, amplified even more through the power of social media marketing. The playbook remains the same though: make it appealing, make it "cool" (kids love that), and target the crucial teenage demographic. Make them addicted for life.

[gatherhunterer]

Where do you think the nicotine in ecigs comes from? For the first time in decades the industry has consumers who would rather be inhaling nicotine than be informed. Why would they be unhappy?

[jotm]

I'm in a country where they're banned for sale in general shops. Only licensed businesses can sell them.

Cigarettes, on the other hand, are in every corner shop.

A level of stupidity that is hard to achieve.

[dade_]

All I know was that I kept going back to smoking, even after quitting for a few years. I used e-cigs for 2 years, quit them 3 years ago and I have no interest in either anymore. As far as I am concerned, they are an essential tool to help people quit smoking.

I look forward to some real data on the topic though. I think some designs and chemicals (flavouring) in vaping cause harm and that with research, the risks can be mitigated.

That said, there is also a puritan no drug element to these "anti-tobacco" lobbies that have nothing to do with harm or risk, they are just the Calvinists of our day.

[andykx]

I think the dangerous thing is that people who have never smoked are using vapes more and more. I'm 26 and the vast majority of my friends have never been smokers, but are consistent vapers. I agree that they can help smokers, but I think the primary audience for these products never smoked.

[droidist2]

> That said, there is also a puritan no drug element to these "anti-tobacco" lobbies that have nothing to do with harm or risk, they are just the Calvinists of our day.

True, and what's also weird is a lot of the anti-nicotine puritans are pro-marijuana.

[snek]

That's an excellent use of e-cigs. The issue is the companies that stuff enormous amounts of nicotine into their e-cigs and then claiming that it "helps people quit smoking" only because they're even more addicted to the e-cig, and then the kids who get hooked on these bad e-cigs.

[anonytrary]

I've sat in on a few court cases, and also in a jury for a murder trial. It is honestly very scary to me how a judge, a single person, can decide something that affects so many people.

To me this seems like a flaw in the US's democratic consensus algorithm. It is literally no different than if Bitcoin's algorithm allowed a single node to decide what to do with 100k BTC flowing across the network. That much decision-making power should never reside with a single person, no matter how many people voted that person to that position.

When you think about it, it's pretty scary how even something like a democracy works in practice. It's not a great system but I guess it's better than all the rest?

[acjacobson]

Well, the theory says that the judge can only apply the current law as is written. And as written his interpretation is that the FDA has regulatory jurisdiction (and therefore obligation) over E-Cigarettes. But the judge doesn't create the law. If Congress wants to change the law they can. There is nothing legally that prevents Congress from passing a law that specifically exempts E-Cigarettes from FDA approval. I am not saying that politically this is feasible - the point is only that one judge is not the only party capable of making a decision.

[r00fus]

What does "seek FDA review" involve? Is 10m an appropriate lead time, or do we expect to see a lot of extension requests?

What's the likelihood that FDA in early 2020 will not again kick the can down the road?

[loeg]

I think the main hurdle is that you have to take a huge pile of money and light it on fire as a sacrifice to the FDA. This obviously limits the number of products and vendors that can participate in the market, although it isn't at all clear that it will reduce uptake by non-smokers.

[xOoOx]

The e-cigarette culture is widely different in Europe. Only people that I've seen using it are 25+ year old people that want to reduce/stop smoking. Not a single kid. Let alone someone "cool". Still the European Union are regulating it and making it less attractive. Like with the recent ban of "shake n vape" for example

[akeck]

Tobacco is an "agricultural product" if I recall correctly. It's allowed, in part, because it predates the United States. On the other hand, e-cigs to me (IANAL) are a "drug delivery system". I've always been curious about how they were allowed even to get started - let alone turn into a 7 billion dollar market.

[nordsieck]

> I've always been curious about how they were allowed even to get started

Laws are created reactively. By default everything is legal, and it is only when there is a problem that a law is made about something.

If you go to the vitamin shop, you can see a whole isle of unregulated substances people ingest. I'm not really sure (legally) how e-cigs are different.

[anthony_doan]

My friend's brother in law is a pediatrician, BIL talks about e-cig stories a lot. How young teen are using e-cig and cases where these high school boys are losing their sex drive (getting ED).

I'm not advocating for a ban but there should be independent studies conducted on the effect of e-cig and also more awareness for younger children. I'd like a long term studies on the effect of e-cig.

[jotm]

Treat ecigarettes like any other tobacco products. No selling to minors, inform and punish teens who use them.

Teens were smoking cigarettes two decades ago, this isn't much different.

[kragen]

Sometimes people wonder why progress seems to be so slow nowadays. This is an example of the kind of thing that suggests that regulation is a major brake on progress; perhaps this is why the center of gravity of world progress has shifted from Europe and the US to China.

[kragen]

You cannot be a liberal and also be in favor of prohibiting e-cigarettes. It's a contradiction.

The tone of your comment — insulting, hyperbolic, and sarcastic — is not up to the standards of the quality of discourse we attempt to maintain on this site.

[laretluval]

Nicotine is a wonderful stimulant with minimal health risks. The problem with smoking is the smoke.

[double0jimb0]

Wow. I think you are going to want to investigate that a bit more if you are banking your own health on that statement.

[ZitchDog]

Hey guess what. I didn’t use cigarettes at all for the last 10 years but used ecigs because they tasted good and were fun. It happens too. They could be harmful on balance!