>In response, Ho posted a Facebook video making death threats against pro-democratic legislator Eddie Chu, who has spoken up against corruption in rural areas in the past and argued with Ho on a local TV channel on Tuesday.
>Ho said Chu had “two paths” before him: “One is a path of being alive, one is a path of not being alive. You must choose which path to take. Decide soon,” he said.
Jesus it's gotten bad.
If ever there was a way to galvanize the populace, it's to do away with the masquerade and just tell them "step in line or die."
I don't like Junius Ho myself, but I think the LA Times translation of that quote is incorrect.
生路 and 死路 in Chinese don't literally mean "path of being alive" and "path of being dead". They are figurative, more appropriately translated as "free/open path" and "dead end". So Ho isn't really making threats about Chu's life, but more like abstract "consequences", maybe legal, maybe career-wise, maybe popularity-wise. Frankly, I don't know what Ho can do. I don't think Ho has enough evidence that Chu's supporter(s) vandalized his parents' graves and that Chu knows the exact perpetrator(s). Otherwise Ho would have provided that evidence to the police and the police would have made arrests already.
That's when you get when your country is run by a dictator with supreme powers -- everyone is at the behest of his/her mood (and of those who follow their direct orders), including other countries with which they may enter more conflicts because they are personally offended by them. There's no body of representatives to keep that mood in check.
A bunch of jawjacking in this thread about how the US should "intervene", whatever that means.
He's a quick rehash of what the American military has been up to for the last 2 decades:
* Fighting a failing (read: failed) counter-insurgency, that has surely atrophied the necessary skills and experience of field-grade and above officers needed to fight great land and sea wars
* Mopping up the mess left from the above
I don't doubt the fighting ability of the line infantryman (I was one), but this idea that we could do anything about Hong Kong without engaging in a full-scale war is ludicrous. It ignores a) the actual military engagements this country has gotten into for the last 20 years, and b) the actual geo-political situation in the region. Perhaps consider what strategic interest to the United States Hong Kong represents before advocating that we get into yet another endless war with nebulous objectives and mystical thinking about how easy it would be.
> this idea that we could do anything about Hong Kong without engaging in a full-scale war is ludicrous
Fighting a land war against China for Hong Kong is ludicrous. Making a second Tiananmen Square painful for Beijing is not.
From sanctions, to weapons sales to Taiwan et al, to providing protesters and resistance pockets with intelligence, there are options. Whether they’re worth it is the question.
A few weeks ago, I never would have expected China to profess/commit violence openly, just because of the comparatively open press in Hong Kong + ubiquity of cell phones.
After the triad attacks, and now this, I’m worried how far China will go to suppress any unrest.
FWIW, any Americans looking to (try to) help may write their Congress representatives to support the Hong Kong Human Rights and Democracy Act.
> FWIW, any Americans looking to (try to) help may write their Congress representatives to support the Hong Kong Human Rights and Democracy Act.
Please don't. We don't need more concrete excuses for the central government to claim that there is foreign meddling. If the people of the country cannot awaken to fight together in solidarity against the authoritarian government, then it's just too bad. So be it. I still live in Hong Kong and it's a scary thought, but it's also the only correct way.
In fact, nobody can expect the US or any foreign government to want to "save" Hong Kong in good faith. We don't need your saving.
>I’m worried how far China will go to suppress any unrest.
"Those who do not learn history are doomed to repeat it."
The mere fact that I had a previous comment in which I directly refer to ... some point in the past and I deleted it because I am scared of the (global) repercussions of my comments on the internet is horrifying...
>>"A few weeks ago, I never would have expected China to profess/commit violence openly, just because of the comparatively open press in Hong Kong + ubiquity of cell phones.
Oh, no. Not violence, they're merely "maintaining order," something the state is obligated to do. A few criminals are using violent acts and making life miserable for the silent majority...etc etc.
What is up with the delusional nature of Hong Kong proponents? I mean I get that there are no other options but come on we have to watch this slow motion trainwreck for 50 years straight? Just get it over with already!
The US is merely going to re-evaluate Hong Kong’s independence, not this thing on the other end of the spectrum.
Everything I ever hear about Hong Kong residents is oozing with delusion. “We’ll get UK passports!” Remember that meme?
Im going to be on the edge of my seat if she requests the military though
>FWIW, any Americans looking to (try to) help may write their Congress representatives to support the Hong Kong Human Rights and Democracy Act.
We just spent the last 3+ years, complaining about foreign meddling in our democracy and now we're right back to advocating that we do it ourselves to someone else.
This is mostly rhetoric and political posturing. Chinese government has so far refrained from taking any action. Beijing is not an benevolent actor, but is smart enough to leave Hong Kong people alone and let Hong Kong people see for themselves what a HK version of Arab Spring/Orange Revolution can deliver. If the protests lead HK to a state of chaos and recession, Beijing will gain more leverage.
> Beijing is not an benevolent actor, but is smart enough to leave Hong Kong people alone
Nothing Xi has done in the past year with Hong Kong has been smart. It’s short termed decision making, optimised for his political survival over the country’s long-term interests.
When dictators’ economies slow, they tend to pick from one of two handbooks: scapegoating a minority or launching pointless wars.
Also Keep in mind what the Chinese gov is capable of, notably that there are up to a million or more Uighers in 're-education' camps at the moment [0].
Western Europe is the weak link in sustaining democratic movements worldwide. Its economic clout is enormous, but will refuse to use it in any meaningful way because it will incur short-term hardship and possibly loss of support at home. While being a good example of many modern values, Europe has no will to confront when things go wrong.
If the last two big conflicts were due to European actions, the next one will be due their inaction at the appropriate time.
I have to say, these protests in Hong Kong have really surprised me. This is my own prejudice speaking (as an American-born Taiwanese), but my wrong assumption about young East Asians was they'd be too distracted, disaffected, and generally uninterested in politics to have rallied like this.
Seeing it another way, assuming you did not read the young generation incorrectly: even the uninterested youngsters have a bottomline and cannot stand what the Chinese government is doing anymore.
As a Taiwanese, I am more optimistic than your are regarding the thinking and passion of young east Asians.
I just did a Google search from China and nothing is coming up. I guess you are right, we should not worry as nothing had happened. information is organized and is universally accessible and useful.
To the more fortunate among us who live in the civilized parts of the world: please proactively fight for your democratic system and basic human rights. They are hard-earned, but can be easily eroded.
Anyone not expecting this? It's fairly clear that the newest bridge to the peninsula was directly intended to enable such intervention.
This is not a judgement against China, but a nation that plans massive infrastructure projects, has a history of single-party rule (and rule by dynastic monarchs) and also is responsible for the Uighur re-education camps, doesn't really sound like a country unwilling to wield it's military might.
While it's citizenry and residents are much more diverse and identify not as Chinese but seperate, HK has historically been part of China, and only really a separate state/entity for a couple of centuries.
I don't know where this conspiracy theory came from but it's patently absurd. Hong Kong already shares a river border with Shenzhen on which there are at least 7 ~100m long bridges as well as 1 ~3km long bridge that can put Chinese tanks directly onto HK New Territories.
The HK-Zhuhai-Macau bridge is a 55km long bridge connecting a 8x smaller city in China to Lantau Island which then requires another separate two bridge crossing to reach the New Territories (and then another to reach HK Island).
The military strategic value of this bridge is less than nil. The bridge was built for its stated purpose which was to increase integration and economic growth of the Greater Bay Area. The indirect effect of this is to tie HK's economy more deeply into the Mainland's so that HK becomes assimilated but there this was plainly stated from the beginning of the project.
Using the military on an backwater province is different from deploying troops to a dense city filled with millions of people. Not saying they might not still do it, just pointing out that a PLA invasion of HK would command significant attention and sympathy worldwide.
I find it odd that in all the articles and discussions I've seen about this, the Opium Wars are never talked about. Of course violence is never justification for more violence, but seeing as Hong Kong's very existence is based on the worst of human exploitation, it's hard to imagine that it's ever going to have a calm future.
I can't help but think that for us Europeans it touches the nerve where we know at some level that all our chickens will come home to roost like this one day?
[+] [-] komali2|6 years ago|reply
>Ho said Chu had “two paths” before him: “One is a path of being alive, one is a path of not being alive. You must choose which path to take. Decide soon,” he said.
Jesus it's gotten bad.
If ever there was a way to galvanize the populace, it's to do away with the masquerade and just tell them "step in line or die."
[+] [-] k_sze|6 years ago|reply
I don't like Junius Ho myself, but I think the LA Times translation of that quote is incorrect.
生路 and 死路 in Chinese don't literally mean "path of being alive" and "path of being dead". They are figurative, more appropriately translated as "free/open path" and "dead end". So Ho isn't really making threats about Chu's life, but more like abstract "consequences", maybe legal, maybe career-wise, maybe popularity-wise. Frankly, I don't know what Ho can do. I don't think Ho has enough evidence that Chu's supporter(s) vandalized his parents' graves and that Chu knows the exact perpetrator(s). Otherwise Ho would have provided that evidence to the police and the police would have made arrests already.
[+] [-] mtgx|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] onetimemanytime|6 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] remarkEon|6 years ago|reply
He's a quick rehash of what the American military has been up to for the last 2 decades:
* Fighting a failing (read: failed) counter-insurgency, that has surely atrophied the necessary skills and experience of field-grade and above officers needed to fight great land and sea wars
* Mopping up the mess left from the above
I don't doubt the fighting ability of the line infantryman (I was one), but this idea that we could do anything about Hong Kong without engaging in a full-scale war is ludicrous. It ignores a) the actual military engagements this country has gotten into for the last 20 years, and b) the actual geo-political situation in the region. Perhaps consider what strategic interest to the United States Hong Kong represents before advocating that we get into yet another endless war with nebulous objectives and mystical thinking about how easy it would be.
[+] [-] JumpCrisscross|6 years ago|reply
Fighting a land war against China for Hong Kong is ludicrous. Making a second Tiananmen Square painful for Beijing is not.
From sanctions, to weapons sales to Taiwan et al, to providing protesters and resistance pockets with intelligence, there are options. Whether they’re worth it is the question.
[+] [-] jwilbs|6 years ago|reply
After the triad attacks, and now this, I’m worried how far China will go to suppress any unrest.
FWIW, any Americans looking to (try to) help may write their Congress representatives to support the Hong Kong Human Rights and Democracy Act.
[+] [-] k_sze|6 years ago|reply
Please don't. We don't need more concrete excuses for the central government to claim that there is foreign meddling. If the people of the country cannot awaken to fight together in solidarity against the authoritarian government, then it's just too bad. So be it. I still live in Hong Kong and it's a scary thought, but it's also the only correct way.
In fact, nobody can expect the US or any foreign government to want to "save" Hong Kong in good faith. We don't need your saving.
[+] [-] Rainymood|6 years ago|reply
"Those who do not learn history are doomed to repeat it."
The mere fact that I had a previous comment in which I directly refer to ... some point in the past and I deleted it because I am scared of the (global) repercussions of my comments on the internet is horrifying...
[+] [-] onetimemanytime|6 years ago|reply
Oh, no. Not violence, they're merely "maintaining order," something the state is obligated to do. A few criminals are using violent acts and making life miserable for the silent majority...etc etc.
[+] [-] lisper|6 years ago|reply
Seriously? I'm surprised they held off this long. Remember Tienanmen Square?
[+] [-] rolltiide|6 years ago|reply
What is up with the delusional nature of Hong Kong proponents? I mean I get that there are no other options but come on we have to watch this slow motion trainwreck for 50 years straight? Just get it over with already!
The US is merely going to re-evaluate Hong Kong’s independence, not this thing on the other end of the spectrum.
Everything I ever hear about Hong Kong residents is oozing with delusion. “We’ll get UK passports!” Remember that meme?
Im going to be on the edge of my seat if she requests the military though
[+] [-] unknown|6 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] devoply|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] remarkEon|6 years ago|reply
We just spent the last 3+ years, complaining about foreign meddling in our democracy and now we're right back to advocating that we do it ourselves to someone else.
Amazing.
[+] [-] majia|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] JumpCrisscross|6 years ago|reply
Nothing Xi has done in the past year with Hong Kong has been smart. It’s short termed decision making, optimised for his political survival over the country’s long-term interests.
When dictators’ economies slow, they tend to pick from one of two handbooks: scapegoating a minority or launching pointless wars.
[+] [-] discordance|6 years ago|reply
0: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-45474279
[+] [-] austinheap|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jeswin|6 years ago|reply
If the last two big conflicts were due to European actions, the next one will be due their inaction at the appropriate time.
I am not American.
[+] [-] Causality1|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] peteretep|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ryanlol|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kyconny|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bufferoverflow|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dawhizkid|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tyc85|6 years ago|reply
As a Taiwanese, I am more optimistic than your are regarding the thinking and passion of young east Asians.
[+] [-] idlewords|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] King-Aaron|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jedmeyers|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kino123|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Animats|6 years ago|reply
[1] https://www.scmp.com/news/china/military/article/3019854/chi...
[+] [-] odiroot|6 years ago|reply
SCMP is not at liberty to tell "the truth" (by western standards).
[+] [-] facethrowaway|6 years ago|reply
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-46353767
[+] [-] mtgx|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] cltsang|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ycombonator|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] qbaqbaqba|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tangmonk|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] alasdair_|6 years ago|reply
And the USA belongs to Britain.
[+] [-] Kusse|6 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] r00fus|6 years ago|reply
This is not a judgement against China, but a nation that plans massive infrastructure projects, has a history of single-party rule (and rule by dynastic monarchs) and also is responsible for the Uighur re-education camps, doesn't really sound like a country unwilling to wield it's military might.
While it's citizenry and residents are much more diverse and identify not as Chinese but seperate, HK has historically been part of China, and only really a separate state/entity for a couple of centuries.
[+] [-] 9nGQluzmnq3M|6 years ago|reply
Also, the PLA already has about 6,000 troops stationed in HK: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Liberation_Army_Hon...
[+] [-] shalmanese|6 years ago|reply
The HK-Zhuhai-Macau bridge is a 55km long bridge connecting a 8x smaller city in China to Lantau Island which then requires another separate two bridge crossing to reach the New Territories (and then another to reach HK Island).
The military strategic value of this bridge is less than nil. The bridge was built for its stated purpose which was to increase integration and economic growth of the Greater Bay Area. The indirect effect of this is to tie HK's economy more deeply into the Mainland's so that HK becomes assimilated but there this was plainly stated from the beginning of the project.
[+] [-] pm90|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tombh|6 years ago|reply
I can't help but think that for us Europeans it touches the nerve where we know at some level that all our chickens will come home to roost like this one day?
[+] [-] unknown|6 years ago|reply
[deleted]