> Remove everyone, if we must, and let something much better be built from the ashes.
This is cancel culture taken to the extreme. Now that everything is built, the builders are expendable. They're "problematic."
We're facing down a new form of puritanism that is a greater threat to civil rights than the "problematic" individuals they seek to destroy.
No defense for RMS' statement, it's absurd, but if there's no moderation whatsoever in regards to a proportionate response (eg. he's either "clean" or "unclean"), then no one else is safe as the mob ratchets up its criteria for existing as a virtuous person.
The issue isn't one problematic statement. It's a history of behaviour that's documented to have driven multiple people away from the free software community and an absolute unwillingness on his part to do anything about it. If your movement's leadership acts in a way that hurts the movement, what's the appropriate response? Everything short of pushing RMS out has been tried already.
You say, "No defense for RMS' statement" and yet here you are.
RMS is using his position as a free software spokesman and leader to minimize sex trafficking and defend rapists and you are talking about "cancel culture".
Something like what Python has done in transitioning off of a BDFL is well worth discussing.
Even though I'm not religiously bound to the GPL, it would be idiotic to refuse props to RMS for having profoundly affected society in a positive way through the FSF.
Are we confident that the FSF doesn't pass on with RMS? How?
>No defense for RMS' statement, it's absurd, but if there's no moderation whatsoever in regards to a proportionate response (eg. he's either "clean" or "unclean"), then no one else is safe as the mob ratchets up it's criteria for existing as a virtuous person.
What more proportionate response would you suggest?
So far, the only alternative responses I've seen offered are that Stallman is either correct or the true victim, and we should sympathize with him, respect him and let him be.
It is entirely possible that the people who are good at building technologies aren't great at building cultures or communities, or at finding the most human-beneficial uses of those technologies. Different skillsets.
I grow more and more tired of these discussions. Talks of banishing people because they’re ignorant, rude, sexist. Conferences are getting shut down, people are having their world turned upside down for being ignorant. Every topic is a hot potato. I feel i can’t even have a reasonable conversation about diversity, ignorance, or whatever the controversy of the day is. It’s easier to just be quiet than express opinions.
I read this article and my reaction was: damn, I knew RMS was weird and opinionated, but I didn’t know he was evil.
I come here to see how others react to this revelation and what do I find? “By golly, what is the world coming to when you can’t even defend child rape without someone calling for your removal from leadership?”
> The perpetrator is a victim, there's no doubt about that. Psychopaths aren't born, they are created through trauma in a society that doesn't give a crap about humans.
> This is cancel culture taken to the extreme.
> I grow more and more tired of these discussions. Talks of banishing people because they’re ignorant, rude, sexist.
Stallman is, and has, defending child sex trafficking and rape.
The salient point is that free software is a movement consisting of many individuals with their own viewpoints. If you want to support free software without endorsing the behavior of this man then donate your time, money, attention, to a different free software organization. There are a lot of them [0].
I thought this much would be obvious by now, but here we go. The people who traffic and rape children are mainly found among the filthy rich so called elite. If you want to do something about that, punching RMS won't help.
The thing about RMS is that he prefers to use his own brain and is not afraid to stand up for his views, which is an increasingly rare phenomenon. So rare that its nearly considered a crime these days.
The perpetrator is a victim, there's no doubt about that. Psychopaths aren't born, they are created through trauma in a society that doesn't give a crap about humans.
I think just because someone may be bad at one thing, does not necessarily mean they are bad at other stuff too.
Also, I think you should have the right to your opinion. But, people who have other opinion also must have right to their opinion, too, rather than only one.
These are just as true with Stallman as with Minsky, and also the other people who complain about it, I think.
I don't like it either that they did that sex, and I fail to see how "the most plausible scenario is that she presented herself to him as entirely willing", but I think it make sense that you should not "accusation inflation", even though other people might says differently. I do not defend rapists, but also do not accuse them of other stuff too automatically.
Whether or not you use GPL and Emacs and so on are entirely different decisions than those reports they mention, though. It is separate, even if done by the same person.
it is all about rms being rms. When an act of illegal copying copyrighted material is called piracy, he pedantically says that it is a wrong term, because piracy is a penal crime that involves violence and forcible property theft.
when a pimp presents an underage woman to a customer, he pedantically says that it wasn't an assault.
I've read the whole email thread and didn't see him defending child rape and sex trafficking. Maybe ones who are quick to condemn him should read something but the medium post
A useful self-test on this topic is to consider the following question:
If we really needed to talk about the inception of ReiserFS, should we bail Reiser out of prison for a bit and pay him a speaker's fee? Or can we content ourselves with considering his technology while excluding the man?
It turns out, opinions differ on this. And while I'm not implying that RMS's words are worse than Reiser's actions, I'm noting that the fact some people believe the answer is "Yes, we do bail him out of prison for a bit" is telling on where people in our industry set the bar on dividing a person's works and their other qualities.
I didn't read this as RMS minimizing sex trafficking or defending rapists. I read it as him making an inappropriate argument about semantics in entirely the wrong place. These are very different things, and it seems like many people, including the author of that Medium article, really want it to be the first instead of the second.
The best-case scenario is still incredibly sordid: Minsky partook in sex acts with a young woman 50+ years his junior who was part of a billionaire's "harem" without checking her age or true consent status.
Quibbling about whether it's actually sexual assault still leaves RMS using his position, stature, and reputation to defend this still horrible "best" case scenario. He still needs to go even if you believe this is what is going on here.
Open source software is driven by powerful economic forces, not by RMS or his politics. In contrast, “free” software is a sideshow. The FSF is mostly irrelevant these days.
It’s interesting to note the history of the GNU project, which bootstrapped itself by ripping off pre-existing BSD licensed projects and publishing new implementations as GPL. Open source predates “free” software.
[+] [-] rubbingalcohol|6 years ago|reply
This is cancel culture taken to the extreme. Now that everything is built, the builders are expendable. They're "problematic."
We're facing down a new form of puritanism that is a greater threat to civil rights than the "problematic" individuals they seek to destroy.
No defense for RMS' statement, it's absurd, but if there's no moderation whatsoever in regards to a proportionate response (eg. he's either "clean" or "unclean"), then no one else is safe as the mob ratchets up its criteria for existing as a virtuous person.
[+] [-] mjg59|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Ensorceled|6 years ago|reply
RMS is using his position as a free software spokesman and leader to minimize sex trafficking and defend rapists and you are talking about "cancel culture".
This is a horrific response to this article.
[+] [-] smitty1e|6 years ago|reply
Even though I'm not religiously bound to the GPL, it would be idiotic to refuse props to RMS for having profoundly affected society in a positive way through the FSF.
Are we confident that the FSF doesn't pass on with RMS? How?
[+] [-] krapp|6 years ago|reply
What more proportionate response would you suggest?
So far, the only alternative responses I've seen offered are that Stallman is either correct or the true victim, and we should sympathize with him, respect him and let him be.
[+] [-] shadowgovt|6 years ago|reply
Wernher von Braun never went to the moon.
[+] [-] deanclatworthy|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pjc50|6 years ago|reply
The problem is that not getting those people to stop doing that - or, if necessary, excluding them - causes them to exclude other people.
[+] [-] Jonnax|6 years ago|reply
Stallman emailed a big mailing list for a computer science department the following about a child sex trafficking victim:
"The reference reports the claim that Minsky had sex with one of Epstein’s harem…Let’s presume that was true (I see no reason to disbelieve it). ...
We can imagine many scenarios, but the most plausible scenario is that she presented herself to him as entirely willing."
Is this acceptable to you?
[+] [-] tom_mellior|6 years ago|reply
Yeah, you can't even condone raping children anymore. What has the world come to?
More seriously, the point is that this topic is not enough of a hot potato if RMS is comfortable talking about it in public.
[+] [-] yeahthat|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jrnichols|6 years ago|reply
It's no wonder that instead of staying quiet, many wind up at echo chambers like Voat and Gab.
[+] [-] ndidi|6 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] mikeash|6 years ago|reply
I read this article and my reaction was: damn, I knew RMS was weird and opinionated, but I didn’t know he was evil.
I come here to see how others react to this revelation and what do I find? “By golly, what is the world coming to when you can’t even defend child rape without someone calling for your removal from leadership?”
Y’all motherfuckers need Jesus.
[+] [-] Ensorceled|6 years ago|reply
> The perpetrator is a victim, there's no doubt about that. Psychopaths aren't born, they are created through trauma in a society that doesn't give a crap about humans.
> This is cancel culture taken to the extreme.
> I grow more and more tired of these discussions. Talks of banishing people because they’re ignorant, rude, sexist.
Stallman is, and has, defending child sex trafficking and rape.
[+] [-] cycloptic|6 years ago|reply
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_free_and_open-source_s...
[+] [-] unknown|6 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] fouc|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Jonnax|6 years ago|reply
It's amazing how much hanging out in the tech world you don't hear anything about this.
Of course, just like he argues that a perpetrators is the real victim. I'm sure I'll read some article about how admirable Stallman's views are.
[+] [-] codr7|6 years ago|reply
The thing about RMS is that he prefers to use his own brain and is not afraid to stand up for his views, which is an increasingly rare phenomenon. So rare that its nearly considered a crime these days.
The perpetrator is a victim, there's no doubt about that. Psychopaths aren't born, they are created through trauma in a society that doesn't give a crap about humans.
[+] [-] zzo38computer|6 years ago|reply
Also, I think you should have the right to your opinion. But, people who have other opinion also must have right to their opinion, too, rather than only one.
These are just as true with Stallman as with Minsky, and also the other people who complain about it, I think.
I don't like it either that they did that sex, and I fail to see how "the most plausible scenario is that she presented herself to him as entirely willing", but I think it make sense that you should not "accusation inflation", even though other people might says differently. I do not defend rapists, but also do not accuse them of other stuff too automatically.
Whether or not you use GPL and Emacs and so on are entirely different decisions than those reports they mention, though. It is separate, even if done by the same person.
[+] [-] twd99|6 years ago|reply
when a pimp presents an underage woman to a customer, he pedantically says that it wasn't an assault.
I've read the whole email thread and didn't see him defending child rape and sex trafficking. Maybe ones who are quick to condemn him should read something but the medium post
[+] [-] unknown|6 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] shadowgovt|6 years ago|reply
If we really needed to talk about the inception of ReiserFS, should we bail Reiser out of prison for a bit and pay him a speaker's fee? Or can we content ourselves with considering his technology while excluding the man?
It turns out, opinions differ on this. And while I'm not implying that RMS's words are worse than Reiser's actions, I'm noting that the fact some people believe the answer is "Yes, we do bail him out of prison for a bit" is telling on where people in our industry set the bar on dividing a person's works and their other qualities.
[+] [-] unknown|6 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] xkapastel|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Ensorceled|6 years ago|reply
Quibbling about whether it's actually sexual assault still leaves RMS using his position, stature, and reputation to defend this still horrible "best" case scenario. He still needs to go even if you believe this is what is going on here.
[+] [-] mikeash|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Jonnax|6 years ago|reply
He's not stupid. He knows what he's doing.
What a cop out to say "no he was just really hung up about grammar. "
[+] [-] lidHanteyk|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] new_realist|6 years ago|reply
It’s interesting to note the history of the GNU project, which bootstrapped itself by ripping off pre-existing BSD licensed projects and publishing new implementations as GPL. Open source predates “free” software.