[newvoiceoldphne]

Stop! Stop! You're breathing my air!

That kind of thinking leads to a Logan's Run scenario. Instead, why not think of it as a part of life and work to find a solution that doesn't require the wholesale curtailment of liberties all in the name of the environment?

[Robotbeat]

Absolutely not. Massive corporations (including many that are state-owned) being allowed to dump MASSIVE amounts of CO2 (etc) into the air that we humans need to breathe completely for free is not anything like the reductionist view of humans breathing air as an externality. For one thing, humans are fed ultimately by photosynthesis, which exactly compensates for the oxygen we breathe and CO2 we exhale.

But fossil fuels, on the other hand, are massive stores of an atmospheric state tens or hundreds of millions of years before humans existed. CO2 levels were so high, the modern human physiology isn't well suited, and your mental state would be as if you were in a stuffy room. The sun even was slightly dimmer at the time, it was so far ago.

And secondly, the amount of oxygen humans need and CO2 we expel is about two orders of magnitude less than that of burning of fossil fuels. To make that comparison is extreme dishonesty.

Requiring companies to pay for the externalities they foist on others is not "wholesale curtailment of liberties." In fact, companies levying those externalities on us without paying for it is stealing, i.e. the wholesale curtailment of the liberty of everyone on the planet. You have it exactly backwards.

[luc4sdreyer]

That sounds like the slippery slope fallacy. That kind of thinking doesn't necessarily _lead_ anywhere, and even if it did, that doesn't make it wrong. The argument itself is sound.

No one suggested "the wholesale curtailment of liberties". That's a strawman.

There are negative externalities associated with many activities, coal power generation is one of them. The external cost of coal power is at least more than twice the normal market price of the electricity[1]. This is the when you ignore external effects such as those that take place through water, soils, noise, or carbon dioxide and its effect on climate change.

So the actual price is actually at least three times higher. Why not just bill the polluter for the damage they do and then let the market decide which is better based on the true price?

[1] https://www.aeaweb.org/articles?id=10.1257/aer.101.5.1649

[newvoiceoldphne]

But who determines the cost? Who amongst us does not produce CO2?

YOU are the customer if each of these externalities that you are arguing against. Are you willing to shoulder the cost?

[flmontpetit]

Silly reactionary hyperbole.

Our peaceful and sustainable coexistence with the rest of the world (natural or otherwise) has always required the curtailment of some liberties.

You cannot sell tubercular beef and poison the population. For the same reason, you cannot submerge island nations and cause droughts that make other regions of the world inhabitable. Deal with it.

[bazzert]

>> For the same reason, you cannot submerge island nations

out of curiosity, what island nations have been submerged ?

[CalRobert]

The liberty to dump your garbage in a community asset?

I mean, how is it considered rude to fart in someone's face but not rude to idle in front of their house?

[gregwtmtno]

I think carbon emitters should be on the hook to clean up an amount of carbon equivalent to what they emit. There should be nothing controversial about requiring people to clean up after themselves.

[ticmasta]

The biggest carbon emitter is the individual collective. There's nothing wrong with your concept and I don't think it's controversial at that level, but it sure creates dissension when we try and figure out what exactly "requiring people to clean up after themselves" means...

[ClumsyPilot]

Curtailment of liberty: Why am I not allowed to take a shit on a lawn in the park? Why not think of it as a part of life?

[mikeash]

Can I dump my trash on your lawn?