That’s because most cities have poor quality of life, and once you get out of the twenties, you realize quickly that some breathing room, a safe neighborhood, and a single family home with a yard make you much more happy than having access to a large number of bars, restaurants, and other city amenities that you visit less and less. Most millennials are in their thirties now and as they start families they’re realizing high-density urbanism isn’t all its cracked out to be.
Of course what I’m saying isn’t universal and I think there’s a middle ground with cities that retain low-mid density zoning, but it’s my general observation nevertheless.
> That’s because most cities have poor quality of life
And the ones that don't have incredibly expensive properties.
Of course, if you live in the bay area there's a good chance you're exposed to both expensive prices and a poor standard of living, which I'm sure explains a lot of the horrifying experiences I read about here.
Personally, I live in Cambridge MA. Despite this city being the world's top biotech hub, the part of Cambridge I live in is incredibly family-friendly. I don't see needles or crime unless maybe you get close to the "main street" but that's a 15 minute walk away. The cars drive slowly, there's kids and parks everywhere. I would love to raise a family here. But, a single floor in a 3 family building (which was working class housing just a few decades ago) now sells around a million bucks. It's just not feasible, so my wife and I rent and will probably move out to buy somewhere else if prices don't go down in the next few years.
Spot on. The difference in noise pollution, air quality, crime and drug needles laying around is staggering! Having found a wife, neither of us likes going downtown anymore. We have our own sauna and an apple tree!
The only downside is, electricity is way more expensive.
Schools. Interurban schools are normally a microcosms and exaggeration of our societal problems, and as such not rated well academically.
My personal experience is moving to an old suburb that abuts the city while also having one of the best school districts in the Commonwealth and all the amenities of medium to high density (e.g. public transit and being able to walk to nearly everything I need.) I would like to know how they define "city" because I moved out of the political entirely, but well within the social and "infrastructural" city.
Not really any of those things for my wife and I. We enjoy city life. It comes down to cost entirely. Would be happy to live in SF, but the cost is ridiculous. Found similar paying work in a much lower cost of living area of CA, and left immediately.
It doesn't help that people in cities have voted to make it illegal to build more city. The nice bits all existed before cars. The stuff built since then is mostly parking and roads. As a result, only the wealthiest can afford to live in the nice part built before we decided apartments needed as much room for parking as for people.
I'm on the older side of millenial (mid 30's). I love cities. I love walking and cycling everywhere and having a low carbon footprint and being near interesting people and great food and being able to go to museums, etc. I think having more people in cities is a requirement for stopping climate apocalypse.
But after we had a kid we thought "where can we live where our kid can ride a bike and not die" and "where can we live where we can afford a home for three"? And there was... nothing. Suburbia was full of high speed arterials and only slightly less expensive homes. The core city was too expensive for a 2 bed flat.
I got a remote job and we moved way out. I have cows on three sides. It's boring. The roads are still dangerous, sadly, but the house was so astonishingly cheap we can consider it effectively worthless and still come out ahead.
Maybe in time we'll be eligible to live in DK, NL, etc. but until then the rural middle of nowhere is the only option that makes sense financially (if remote work holds up).
Most urban schools are highly stratified. Either cream of the crop or bottom of the barely and little in between. The best of schools have entry requirements and a waiting list. You're either brilliantly gifted or rich enough to afford the tutors to help get you there. If you're not in that group, academically, there is very few resources for you. The other inner-urban schools are just fighting to keep the heat on and have no time for you.
The city I live in has no school, beyond the single K-5, within the city limits. It's a chicken and egg problem through lack of political will. The parents petition the school board to open a middle and high school. They commission a years long study. Those parents eventually have to move because of work, increases costs, and lack of schools. A new set of parents petition the school board for more schools... ad nauseam
Our son has a longer commute to school than I do for work. He's lucky enough to be on a fast bus line. Him growing up in the city is orthogonal to most childhoods. He visits galleries and museums when he can. Has a lot more sympathy for the homeless. He's also gotten into the habit of skipping school lunch and going to the hipster cafe instead.
All this to say I know my family occupies special circumstances that allow us to live in the city. If any one of those changes I know we'd have to look at a suburban lifestyle.
The reason suburban districts have good public schools and urban ones have bad schools is that dividing students into school zones is a legal method of segregation. Cities and districts will intentionally build only expensive single family housing in good school districts to keep the riff raff out.
It's interesting because in Atlanta the inner city is growing and the suburbs are becoming more like the city and creating walkable downtown areas. The new millennial ideal seems to be a revival of the main street and a rejection of both the strip malls and super urbanized downtowns.
If millennials really didn't like the urban lifestyle then wouldn't prices be dropping instead of staying high?
I was recently in a coffee shop in Ypsilanti, Michigan that was indistinguishable from one in Brooklyn. I think more and more people are realizing they can keep the things they want from trendy metros and move to places like Raleigh, Salt Lake City,Austin,Atlanta,Boise ,Dallas,Ann Arbor in exchange for lower costs and less traffic.
> If millennials really didn't like the urban lifestyle then wouldn't prices be dropping instead of staying high?
A million times this. I don't want to (and can't afford to) pay for the ultra luxury downtown destination living experience. But urban living is more than luxurious downtown destinations.
I want my day-to-day trips (bringing kids to school, going to the grocery store, going to work) to be safe and accessible without a car. Just starting there implies a lot about the built environment, and your stereotypical suburb just can't offer that.
> If millennials really didn't like the urban lifestyle then wouldn't prices be dropping instead of staying high?
Some absurd percentage of the real estate in Atlanta is owned by investors. I don't think prices are an accurate indicator of millennial preference right now.
> I think more and more people are realizing they can keep the things they want from trendy metros and move to places like ... Atlanta ... in exchange for ... less traffic.
Atlanta has some of the worst traffic in the nation; in the top five last I checked.
Exactly! For me, realizing that I can have what I want from the city in a small suburban town was a huge shift for me. I moved way outside of a large city to a much smaller town, but I'm right downtown now. When I lived "in the city" I could walk to anything. Now I can walk to bars, grocery stores, a movie theater. There's not much there, and I really hope the little downtown revives more, but it's all close, and it's got cool old brick facades, etc.
A house down the street from where I grew up costs $650,000 for 1500 sq ft on a sixth of an acre. Meanwhile I was offered $55k with 2 years experience. There is also a massively crappy public transit system that lets me commute 4 hours/day to work my 8hour/day job, or I have to buy a car as well. How is the math supposed to work out?
I moved out of the metro area and have been much happier for it... Sure jobs are harder to find, but when I started getting offers they actually paid a livable wage.
That was my story 7-8 years ago. I could probably move back and make really good money, but the quality of life difference is atrocious and homes only got more expensive.
When I moved to a rapidly expanding city from my small town, some 15 years ago, rent was pretty decent. Real-estate was on the rise, then took a hit in 2008, but has been rising ever since.
Rent alone has gone up like 3 times (my first rented apartment, which cost $500 / month, now goes for $1500 / month). We used to joke that who in their right minds would pay $1500 bucks a month, unless the apartment was a complete penthouse...these days you get a 300 sq.ft for that kind of money.
After college I landed a pretty nice job - but I could not shake off the feeling that I was throwing away money on increasing rents.
Doing some quick calculations, I found out that I would save roughly $20000 a year on moving somewhere smaller. My job involved travel, so it didn't really make much sense anyway.
So that's what I did. Moved away, and have saved soon close to $100k, which I use to invest.
I visit friends in the old city every two months or so - a long-weekend tour.
My younger brother is in a similar position, and it's next to impossible for his peers to get a foot inside the housing market, unless you come from resourceful families that can bankroll your first apartment. So from what I've heard, it's indeed become a "life-hack" to simply move somewhere cheaper, save like crazy, and then move back - cash rich.
Here's my paradox: The city i live in has a median 1BR condo price north of $500k, which I cannot afford, but i more or less have to live here because this is the hub of my field. I hate long commutes, so, I rent.
This! I had an hour plus commute living outside of Beantown when I first got out of college. I just don't want to do that again.
Also one of my friends just bought for the first time and he indicated it's expensive as hell. As a single person I'm not sure I want to get into that type of financial commitment when I have a sneaking suspicion the economy's about to collapse.
Similar for me. I think of renting as an investment as well - absolutely zero surprise costs and allows me to plan further out.
Not owning an (hopefully) appreciating asset means not having to maintain that asset. What’s the cost in time for buying and selling a home? I pay that financially to spend my time doing other things
Nothing wrong with renting, so long as you can sublet it, and you have rent control. Consider it an investment without all of the capital cost expenditures that come with a ownership. I have a coworker whose family member rented a one bdrm condo in downtown Toronto 20 years ago when she was attending university. When she left univ, she sublet it to another family member, and so on, and so on through the years. Thanks to rent control the rent has only increased a few hundred dollars over those twenty years. However, the she sublets it at current rental market value which pockets her $1000/month. Nice!
Copy-paste from another thread, cause it's still relevant.
Urban environments aren't really "nice". For all I hear about the joys of urban living, as espoused by others, I haven't enjoyed it much. Public transportation is crowded and smelly. Fat people take half of my seat (not nice to say, but I'm not sure how else to put it). Things are small, which for a taller guy like me, is pretty tough. As in, every thing is tiny. Living spaces, shops, streets. Streets often have trash strewn on them, and don't smell particularly good. I have to keep one hand on my wallet. Sometimes, hobos get aggressive. Not as much as an issue for me, but I'd hate to be a 4'9" lady. Keeping pets is hard. Cooking food is hard. I didn't have kids, but those I knew had a hard time with them. Things are very expensive. It's loud. There's a lot of traffic. Some times (all winter and some times in summer), it's bad weather for walking. I guess I shouldn't be complaining, since I at least didn't see much in the way of human feces.
This is not to say there aren't up-sides. I like the food, and there are interesting people. It's also much easier to find certain things; for instance, a few major cities still have serious "maker shops" with tons of electronic components. Smaller ones or sub-urban areas often can't accommodate them, as they are in low enough demand that serious density is required.
I like sub-urban living and empty green space. I can hardly blame people for moving out, if it's viable. The above applies differently to different cities; some are better, some are worse, but all have most of these problems in the urban core. Considering how expensive it is to live in a city rather than a suburb (especially if you're talking a similar amount of land), I don't want to pay more for less.
Millennial here. I like cities...the spread of ideas and culture is fast. Concerts, coffee shops (to read in) and its easier to meet hardworking people in a city(i feel like most relatively young people stay in cities at the very least until they reach their goals)...and learn how to make money just like them. Suburbs to me are where people go wait to well...die and I don't mean literally. I lived with my parents for a year after finishing school in a really nice suburb I felt suffocated. They love it.
My old man always told me not to call things 'expensive' but to ask myself why I cant afford them (at the moment). If you aren't willing to make the money to live somewhere comfortable then just call it what it is: not a priority.
FYI im immigrant and did not start out life well off but I did have parents that are very no nonsense and honest about why and how people choose to live where they live and why. Most just want to be comfortable and that's O.K
[+] [-] throwawaysea|6 years ago|reply
Of course what I’m saying isn’t universal and I think there’s a middle ground with cities that retain low-mid density zoning, but it’s my general observation nevertheless.
[+] [-] helen___keller|6 years ago|reply
And the ones that don't have incredibly expensive properties.
Of course, if you live in the bay area there's a good chance you're exposed to both expensive prices and a poor standard of living, which I'm sure explains a lot of the horrifying experiences I read about here.
Personally, I live in Cambridge MA. Despite this city being the world's top biotech hub, the part of Cambridge I live in is incredibly family-friendly. I don't see needles or crime unless maybe you get close to the "main street" but that's a 15 minute walk away. The cars drive slowly, there's kids and parks everywhere. I would love to raise a family here. But, a single floor in a 3 family building (which was working class housing just a few decades ago) now sells around a million bucks. It's just not feasible, so my wife and I rent and will probably move out to buy somewhere else if prices don't go down in the next few years.
[+] [-] limomium|6 years ago|reply
The only downside is, electricity is way more expensive.
[+] [-] jimktrains2|6 years ago|reply
My personal experience is moving to an old suburb that abuts the city while also having one of the best school districts in the Commonwealth and all the amenities of medium to high density (e.g. public transit and being able to walk to nearly everything I need.) I would like to know how they define "city" because I moved out of the political entirely, but well within the social and "infrastructural" city.
[+] [-] ubertoop|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] magashna|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] CalRobert|6 years ago|reply
I'm on the older side of millenial (mid 30's). I love cities. I love walking and cycling everywhere and having a low carbon footprint and being near interesting people and great food and being able to go to museums, etc. I think having more people in cities is a requirement for stopping climate apocalypse.
But after we had a kid we thought "where can we live where our kid can ride a bike and not die" and "where can we live where we can afford a home for three"? And there was... nothing. Suburbia was full of high speed arterials and only slightly less expensive homes. The core city was too expensive for a 2 bed flat.
I got a remote job and we moved way out. I have cows on three sides. It's boring. The roads are still dangerous, sadly, but the house was so astonishingly cheap we can consider it effectively worthless and still come out ahead.
Maybe in time we'll be eligible to live in DK, NL, etc. but until then the rural middle of nowhere is the only option that makes sense financially (if remote work holds up).
[+] [-] yardie|6 years ago|reply
The city I live in has no school, beyond the single K-5, within the city limits. It's a chicken and egg problem through lack of political will. The parents petition the school board to open a middle and high school. They commission a years long study. Those parents eventually have to move because of work, increases costs, and lack of schools. A new set of parents petition the school board for more schools... ad nauseam
Our son has a longer commute to school than I do for work. He's lucky enough to be on a fast bus line. Him growing up in the city is orthogonal to most childhoods. He visits galleries and museums when he can. Has a lot more sympathy for the homeless. He's also gotten into the habit of skipping school lunch and going to the hipster cafe instead.
All this to say I know my family occupies special circumstances that allow us to live in the city. If any one of those changes I know we'd have to look at a suburban lifestyle.
[+] [-] rdtwo|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] hdlothia|6 years ago|reply
If millennials really didn't like the urban lifestyle then wouldn't prices be dropping instead of staying high?
I was recently in a coffee shop in Ypsilanti, Michigan that was indistinguishable from one in Brooklyn. I think more and more people are realizing they can keep the things they want from trendy metros and move to places like Raleigh, Salt Lake City,Austin,Atlanta,Boise ,Dallas,Ann Arbor in exchange for lower costs and less traffic.
[+] [-] helen___keller|6 years ago|reply
A million times this. I don't want to (and can't afford to) pay for the ultra luxury downtown destination living experience. But urban living is more than luxurious downtown destinations.
I want my day-to-day trips (bringing kids to school, going to the grocery store, going to work) to be safe and accessible without a car. Just starting there implies a lot about the built environment, and your stereotypical suburb just can't offer that.
[+] [-] DailyHN|6 years ago|reply
Articially inflated / bubble pricing.
Recently we were moving and received significant "incentives" including multiple months of free rent.
My thoughts are that this way they can keep the sticker price above a certain threshold.
And that keeps out people that make below the 3X rent minimum that's calculated using the inflated sticker price.
[+] [-] jamesgeck0|6 years ago|reply
Some absurd percentage of the real estate in Atlanta is owned by investors. I don't think prices are an accurate indicator of millennial preference right now.
> I think more and more people are realizing they can keep the things they want from trendy metros and move to places like ... Atlanta ... in exchange for ... less traffic.
Atlanta has some of the worst traffic in the nation; in the top five last I checked.
[+] [-] burmer|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ldoughty|6 years ago|reply
I moved out of the metro area and have been much happier for it... Sure jobs are harder to find, but when I started getting offers they actually paid a livable wage.
That was my story 7-8 years ago. I could probably move back and make really good money, but the quality of life difference is atrocious and homes only got more expensive.
[+] [-] TrackerFF|6 years ago|reply
When I moved to a rapidly expanding city from my small town, some 15 years ago, rent was pretty decent. Real-estate was on the rise, then took a hit in 2008, but has been rising ever since.
Rent alone has gone up like 3 times (my first rented apartment, which cost $500 / month, now goes for $1500 / month). We used to joke that who in their right minds would pay $1500 bucks a month, unless the apartment was a complete penthouse...these days you get a 300 sq.ft for that kind of money.
After college I landed a pretty nice job - but I could not shake off the feeling that I was throwing away money on increasing rents.
Doing some quick calculations, I found out that I would save roughly $20000 a year on moving somewhere smaller. My job involved travel, so it didn't really make much sense anyway.
So that's what I did. Moved away, and have saved soon close to $100k, which I use to invest.
I visit friends in the old city every two months or so - a long-weekend tour.
My younger brother is in a similar position, and it's next to impossible for his peers to get a foot inside the housing market, unless you come from resourceful families that can bankroll your first apartment. So from what I've heard, it's indeed become a "life-hack" to simply move somewhere cheaper, save like crazy, and then move back - cash rich.
[+] [-] hprotagonist|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] notTyler|6 years ago|reply
Also one of my friends just bought for the first time and he indicated it's expensive as hell. As a single person I'm not sure I want to get into that type of financial commitment when I have a sneaking suspicion the economy's about to collapse.
[+] [-] jshawl|6 years ago|reply
Not owning an (hopefully) appreciating asset means not having to maintain that asset. What’s the cost in time for buying and selling a home? I pay that financially to spend my time doing other things
[+] [-] voidmain0001|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Wonnk13|6 years ago|reply
I quite enjoy urban life and the tapestry of humanity that fills it.
Anywhere other than SF, NYC and maybe Boston and LA condo/house prices aren't too unreasonable imho.
[+] [-] ummonk|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rootusrootus|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Kaiyou|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] neonate|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bin0|6 years ago|reply
Urban environments aren't really "nice". For all I hear about the joys of urban living, as espoused by others, I haven't enjoyed it much. Public transportation is crowded and smelly. Fat people take half of my seat (not nice to say, but I'm not sure how else to put it). Things are small, which for a taller guy like me, is pretty tough. As in, every thing is tiny. Living spaces, shops, streets. Streets often have trash strewn on them, and don't smell particularly good. I have to keep one hand on my wallet. Sometimes, hobos get aggressive. Not as much as an issue for me, but I'd hate to be a 4'9" lady. Keeping pets is hard. Cooking food is hard. I didn't have kids, but those I knew had a hard time with them. Things are very expensive. It's loud. There's a lot of traffic. Some times (all winter and some times in summer), it's bad weather for walking. I guess I shouldn't be complaining, since I at least didn't see much in the way of human feces. This is not to say there aren't up-sides. I like the food, and there are interesting people. It's also much easier to find certain things; for instance, a few major cities still have serious "maker shops" with tons of electronic components. Smaller ones or sub-urban areas often can't accommodate them, as they are in low enough demand that serious density is required.
I like sub-urban living and empty green space. I can hardly blame people for moving out, if it's viable. The above applies differently to different cities; some are better, some are worse, but all have most of these problems in the urban core. Considering how expensive it is to live in a city rather than a suburb (especially if you're talking a similar amount of land), I don't want to pay more for less.
[+] [-] sammyo|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kiritanpo|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rc_hadoken|6 years ago|reply
My old man always told me not to call things 'expensive' but to ask myself why I cant afford them (at the moment). If you aren't willing to make the money to live somewhere comfortable then just call it what it is: not a priority.
FYI im immigrant and did not start out life well off but I did have parents that are very no nonsense and honest about why and how people choose to live where they live and why. Most just want to be comfortable and that's O.K
[+] [-] pcbangbros|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jteppinette|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] GoToRO|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bigYahnz|6 years ago|reply
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