Inclusiveness -- but let's ostracize the non-conforming aspie...
Fairness -- but let's fire people or make them resign from unrelated positions for their personal opinions, because obviously all of a person's life should serve as a big PR, and god forbid they don't play the role 24/7. Someone might call them for it on Twitter, and what could their employee/organization do other than fire them? (in the "Land of the free" nonetheless)
Not to mention the blatant conformity and blandness -- punishing experimentation, personality, eccentricity, being the devil's advocate, controversiality, and, worse of all, being 'unprofessional' (as if the FSF is something akin to 1970s IBM)...
First they came for Patch Adams...
The current environment rewards the worst kind of scum: holier-than-thou hypocritical tell-tales and people who enjoy yielding power over others by drawing lynch-mobs.
I have wrote against Epstein here in several threads, but I could have lunch with a person who has controversial opinions on the matter like Stallman. People like those who finger-pointed and cheered on the personal consequences on Stallman, I'd prefer to live in another universe from.
Are you happy now? Justice for Epstein's victims served? (on someone who never even met Epstein)
Speak up now, or don't bother to cry crocodile tears and set up the "black ribbon" when we eventually lose Stallman, and tell stories of how he inspired you, etc...
I for one agree 100% with you here. And I don't really know what angers me more - the explicit desire to destroy a person's life, expressed by many including the original blogger that started this mess, or the relentless denial of reality, the willingness to repeat bald-faced lies, even though the source material was accessible and widely quoted.
Until this debacle I didn't realize so many people in our industry can voluntarily refrain from most basic reading comprehension. There's no discussion with people who simply refuse to read and comprehend a plain English sentence. There were moments I felt this was approaching Varelse level of Foreignness[0] - a mind so alien that it's hard to communicate, a mind that looks at a written sentence and understands the exact opposite of what it was communicating.
There's also a perverse incentive in this age of outrage to incite public lynching and write posts to spark maximum hate where you're rewarded with reach, followers and self-reinforcing Internet points on social media and more clicks on link bait articles of which it appears to be all upside, there doesn't appear to be any downside for mischaracterizing or falsely accusing someone on social media, with enough hate-fueled reach any disinformation will eventually drown out uninteresting contradictory facts and be adopted as truth.
None of the hit piece articles I've read portrayed a true characterization of what he wrote, most presented quotes out of context and instead focused their efforts on colorful commentary to suggest he was somehow in support of child rape - an accusation that's clear to invoke the ire of the masses.
If he were more socially apt maybe he would've known to never share his opinion of what he assumed the thoughts of his late friend were, not even on a private mailing list, unless of course it's to join the chorus of hate and accusations against him.
I've read the mail from Stallman and I couldn't believe people forced him to resign just because he stated that 1 it is not clear assault 2, he don't disbelieve his colleague had sex.
BTW: I have also suffered the tough, complicated, unstable and rare personality of Stallman. Not for that I want to see him dead but like everyone else, when he has been unrespectful with me, I let him know. Everyone who knows Stallman knows he's a complicated and tough guy with very radical opinions and position. I was at a conference where he was cleaning the dirt from his toes while explaining everything, imagine the scene…
I wish I had 1000 points to upvote this comment. But I just want to thank you, sometimes I feel I have become insane or out of touch, seeing the way people twit or comment here. It feels good to know there are still different opinions from the now ubiquitous ultra-SJW worldview.
It doesn't have anything to do with diversity of opinion or lack thereof. If this article is correct, the issue is simply a blatant misrepresentation of what Stallman said.
I admit I haven't been following this news very well so far, so I'm doubtless missing some important facts. I'd heard Stallman was stepping down because of something he said about Minsky, but I have no idea what that was. If this is it, and this article is correct (edit: based on additional info here and elsewhere, it seems Stallman has a long history of questionable behaviour towards women that was also addressed in the initial article, so this new article is omitting quite a bit), then I'm baffled that he has to step down from anything. What he said, that the girl was coerced to appear willing, seems pretty clear to me, and presenting that as him saying that she was actually willing, sounds like a pretty clear and blatant lie to me. Seems worth criticising the organisations that spread that lie.
I'm generally in favour of fighting rape culture and child abuse with all that we've got, and Epstein is clearly pure evil. If Minsky has sex with an underage girl, it doesn't even matter whether she appeared willing or not; that's just wrong. In that sense, Stallman sticking up for his friend was probably not the greatest idea, but if he said she was coerced, and not actually willing, then it's wrong that he should lose his job for saying things he never said.
And yeah, sure, Stallman is a weirdo. Occasionally even a disgusting weirdo maybe (I remember a video where he seemed to pick something from his toes and put it in his mouth), and I recently read a description of events where he publicly embarrassed a woman for being present at a tech related event. (Edit: it seems he has a long history creepiness towards young women, including his students.) If you're gonna fire him, fire him for that, not for something he didn't even say in a private mailing list.
In general, I'm fine with weirdos. We need more of them, not less. Being a weirdo is no excuse to act like an asshole, but on its own it's no reason to ostracise someone.
But this issue? If the description from the article is correct, it seems based on a blatant lie.
I don’t know Stallman so I can’t speak to his behavior first hand. He certainly holds some controversial opinions. Some of them resulting in the philosophical structure for FOSS, some on the other hand on the fringes.
That said the language of diversity, fairness, inclusivity, tolerance, etc. isn’t meant to be taken literally (though it is by the intended audience, expectedly), or alternatively it’s applied at the discretion of those in power at the time. In the USSR and China (and other places) terms got used and abused to defeat previous in-groups (factions who held the same beliefs, mind you) who were taking too much power or were threatening those in power (even though all these people were in the same group or party).
All these terms are tools. They kind of mean them but they are double edged swords which will be used at discretion and will be interpreted at discretion as well.
My impression is that we're experiencing a somewhat less brutal version of Mao's Cultural Revolution. But who knows, possibly "psychological and moral re-education centers" are just over the horizon.
They pulled the same crap in China, with excitable young minds as useful idiots serving the hidden political agendas of actors behind the scene.
It is informative to seriously review the Cultural Revolution, and the ensuing damage to the Chinese nation.
I’m not sure if this is just more grandstanding of the “SJWs run amok” variety, but in case you’re unaware, his recent comments were just the tip of the iceberg:
Someone else downthread also linked about how a woman he worked with on a Linux project had to be warned of his arrival ahead of time so she could leave because of his aggressive advances toward her.
Straight to the point, great comment. Someone like Stallman, founder of the FSF, GNU and other projects is just so beyond the level of decency that people complaining about his behavior have shown in recent weeks.
The MIT and some members of the FSF should be ashamed of themselves.
Never heard anything worthwhile from his critics. It is certainly not Stallman that makes our industry look bad. That is on you and that is all there is to say.
No. None of the things you mention is actually the issue.
Diversity: It's not about opinion, but about an authority figure doing things that harm his colleagues. I could have the opinion that you're an idiot and a liar, but if we were working together and I would constantly say that in the workplace where everyone hears, I would probably get fired.
Inclusiveness: It's not about ostracising, either, certainly not because of some mental disability. If someone harms his coworkers and won't stop, they cannot continue working.
Fairness: Again, the problem is not opinions but harmful actions. It certainly isn't about conformity. Harming the people you work with is not some sign of genius conducive to creativity.
I think that too many people are expressing strong opinions on the matter of sexual harassment and sexual assault without having studied the subject at all. Those are opinions based on deep ignorance of the matter.
Below is a quote from an interview, where Norman Finkelstein discusses the subject of thought policing. Norman Finkelstein has of course been affected by the defense of political correctness, as documented in the documentary "The Trials of Norman Finkelstein."
"What he should have done was in my opinion deliver one policy speech. 'This is where we stand on antisemitism. This is where we stand on the mechanisms for dealing with antisemitism in our party. Case closed.' The other major mistake he made was .. a complete abandonment of the principle of free speech. People have a right to say and think whatever they want. 'I'm a member of the Labour Party. OK. I subscribe to Labour Party's political platform. That's what makes me a member.' But that doesn't mean you have the right to troll my Facebook postings, you have the right to vet everything I say or post on Instagram. I mean that's Romania under Ceausescu, that's North Korea under Kim Il Sung. That's now going to be the mandate of the Labour Party? To be trolling in your thoughts and ideas? To see whether you are an antisemite? Everybody, including you, including your camera people harbors some antisemitic stereotypes... OK. Who cares? I mean It's very hard to extirpate, ... because it's rooted in thousands of years. I mean it's everywhere. It's part of the atmosphere, it's part of the environment, it's part of the history. Do I not harbor any anti-black stereotypes any racist stereotypes? Do I harbor no sexist stereotypes? No! And now we are going to have a Labour Party, which is going to [?] the depths of your conscience, ... looking for some evidence of antisemitism, ...? It's complete lunacy and it's a complete repudiation, abandonment of the most fundamental principles of what's called the Enlightenment beginning with as the Germans put it in that nice German folk song Die Gedanken sind Frei (Thoughts are free). People have the right to think what they believe, and since thought is inseparable from speech, you have the right to think and speak as you please. And if you don't like what a person is saying then you have the right either not to listen or try to persuade the person ... but what you don't have the right to do is penalize people, punish people, expel people for their thoughts... It's a complete political disaster because all it does is it forces people to repress what they're thinking until a demagogue comes along and starts saying what you're thinking, what you were forced to repress. And instead of your erroneous thoughts having been answered, the fact that you were forced to repress them, it validates it for you. ... And then the demagogue comes along and starts to exploit all of those repressed thoughts. So morally it's unacceptable to try to police people's thoughts and politically it's a complete disaster." https://youtu.be/OPYfLY2cAi4?t=616
Update: There is also that famous video where Finkelstein talks about the "crocodile tears" of a German student taking about the son of Holocaust survivors being ... offensive. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6O5zgXeCynQ&t=209s
I just hope that we applied the same rationale in an even-keeled and level-headed manner in other cases where similar concerns are raised.
I hope we don't make exceptions for our favorite pet causes no matter how close to the heart and rule against those who were found to have either voiced opinions or acted in an antagonistic manner to such causes, even when those decisions are thorny and sentimental.[1][2][3]
[1]
Mozilla CEO resigns, opposition to gay marriage drew fire
I'll speak up: I'm happy that Stallman resigned from his positions, but the final straw for me was the surfacing of Stallman's pedophilic musings over the years. You left that part out.
You have just outlined the double-speak of the SV technocracy, which have imposed these hidden codes on those that they disagree with. Mind you that the media has now amplified this and have used all of this to create a new enemy called Richard Stallman. As long as this appalling cancel-culture behaviour stops, he certainly won't be the last one to fall victim to these purity tests.
Diversity - I'm fine with a lack of diversity of opinions on whether or not minors can be willing participants in pedophile relationships.
Inclusiveness - Really? Nobody ostracized him because he is an aspie. It is disingenuous to even say that.
Fairness - Nobody fired him, he resigned and let's be honest, the backlash he received was fairly minor. Yes old statements were dug up, but most people are not okay with the statements he made then, they just didn't know about them.
> holier-than-thou hypocritical tell-tales and people who enjoy yielding power over others by drawing lynch-mobs
Who does this label apply to? Anyone who gets upset at a public figure's viewpoints? Where are you personally drawing the line between acceptable and unacceptable.
This isn't just about Epstein. Epstein is what brought Stallman's views to the spotlight, but the focus is primarily on former stances on pedophilia he made that are far more damaging things to say than whatever people were saying he said about Epstein or the girls involved with him. Stallman doesn't seem to believe that people can be groomed into appearing like they want to do something when they really don't or aren't aware of the consequences of it.
This is positive freedom liberals vs negative freedom liberals. The positive freedom liberals believe in creating an equal playing field for all types of people at the cost of individual freedom. The negative freedom liberals believe in maximizing individual freedom at the cost of an equal playing field.
For the positive freedom liberals, diversity of minorities must be enforced and any opinion that may hinder them must be silenced. However, this is taken to a logical extreme.
Every identity must be inclusive and forced to be inclusive and accomodating even if they may be a minority themself.
In the logical extreme, fairness under the legal court is thrown out because the legal court is viewed as corrupt from being staffed with corrupt figures favoring the majority identity.
Extrajudicial means are employed to force minority identities upward because they don't believe that the negative freedom of the free market can allow for that.
Eccentricity is still allowed, however it is a different kind than the one of computer nerds like Richard Stallman. Non-conforming gender identities or images of body beauty are a-okay but not awkward men. The acceptance of the awkward men were a triumph for the awkward men against the neurotypical men, but now they have become seen as the enemy against other minorities because now their cringe-inducing awkwardness is seen as a barrier to entry that drives off neurotypical minorities.
This is all really musical chairs operating under an inherently unjust system and instead of challenging that system, they only challenge the "bad" actors and hope that somehow the system will become more friendly for everyone.
Yes, we should fire people who are borderline pro-paedophilia and are actually pro-rape. Also, just read the accounts of women who have had the bad luck of directly working with Stallman. We’re all grownups, at some point we should all be responsible for what we say and what we do.
Our culture has made a very bright line decision that sex with minors is unacceptable. Expressing doubt about this cultural norm, or especially advocating against it, is considered unacceptable. Of course one can argue with the merits of those two facts, but they are plainly true and fairly widely accepted.
The very concept of statutory rape reinforces how clear this judgment is. The reference to "statutory" means that the mere facts of the act taking place mean that the conduct is off limits. Things like "consent" or even a misrepresentation of the person's age are generally considered irrelevant.
As a society we've decided that there aren't really exceptions to this. If sex with minors occurs it's not OK, there isn't much need to further investigate why it happened.
Stallman, and anyone else commenting here, has really no basis to claim ignorance of this phenomenally clear social norm, which if broken will result in being fired from just about any public facing institution. It's on a pretty short list of such norms, alongside things like displaying your genitals in a board meeting, ones highly principled views on nudism notwithstanding.
While I appreciate the efforts to make this into some kind of principled argument, I don't find "first they came for the people advocating for sex with minors" to be particularly compelling.
Nobody has suggested he be fined or jailed. His actions just make him unqualified to be a leader. The other people in those organization do get to have a say too you know.
If this social norm is so "phenomenally clear", then why are there such wildly different ages of consent even among western countries and US states? It seems strange that the ability to consent magically appears the day you turn (say) 18. I mean, the law has to draw a line somewhere, but intellectuals like RMS should be allowed to talk about such things without being cast out of civilized society.
Things just got a lot murkier, didn't they. Actually, they have always been a lot murkier. Because "our culture" isn't actually homogenous. And these things have changed a lot over time.
> Expressing doubt about this cultural norm
Well, which norm excactly? The one at 14? Or the one at 18?
"some jurisdictions may also make allowances for minors engaged in sexual acts with each other, rather than a single age."
Murkier.
"There are many "grey areas" in this area of law, some regarding unspecific and untried legislation, others brought about by debates regarding changing societal attitudes, and others due to conflicts between federal and state laws. These factors all make age of consent an often confusing subject, and a topic of highly charged debates"
Are all the people in a society that has the 14 boundary horrible beyond the pale?
Or maybe things are a bit more complicated than you make them out to be.
> They focused on his tone deaf communication style and awkward demeanor. They spoke of behavior from decades ago and pointed out the fact that he had a mattress in his office.
It wasn't just awkward demeanor. He actively made women feel unwelcome in the workplace and behaved unprofessionally over and over again.
> He held his positions at MIT, GNU, and the FSF for over thirty years, and in that time nobody accused him of coercion, unwanted touching, or verbal harassment
Yes, because of people like you, Geoff. When people like Stallman behave like they do and say the things they say they don't have to face the consequences because people don't want to speak up, because they're afraid of being called liars or censors. That's how authority figures and popular individuals keep getting away with it.
The second paragraph of the post is irrelevant and further proves the point. Stallman's contributions to free software don't excuse his conduct.
I don't know RMS personally, but from what I've seen and read about him, he's a bit eccentric. There's nothing wrong with that, but people tend to dislike or distrust those whom are different from what society considers 'normal'. I suspect part of the 'witch hunt' was in part fueled by this eccentricity.
Humanity is converging on ideological monoculture. There is one correct way to think, and if you're dumb enough to step outside of those bounds, people _will_ come after you, and destroy whatever you have. One comment here even suggested that RMS is a rapist in so many words, really?
I submit that you cannot have innovation without inconvenient characters. You must allow a plurality of ideas and ideals to exist, even those that you find dumb or repulsive.
I don't personally like RMS very much, he seems like an annoying person, but he should not have had his life ruined for what amounted to an pedantic argument on a mailing list.
There's quite a lot in this. I don't think it's helpful to throw in stuff like "He is now likely homeless" - gossip/rumour I'm sure this author would be decrying if the other side of the argument had brought it up. We don't know anything about RMS's personal life and shouldn't speculate.
Now let's address the underlying point: You don't get X good thing without Y bad behaviour. I don't agree with this. It's a weird sort of blackmail "Put up with my bad behaviour because you need me". Firstly, For all we know, if we had been less tolerant of bad treatment of people in the free software movement, it'd be a much more powerful movement today than if we had allowed a small number of toxic individuals to take leadership roles and drive out many potential contributors. I see that as no less likely than the scenario put out in this defense.
Secondly, this attitude shifts the responsibility away from the individual for their actions. If someone has a lot to contribute but it never happens because their attitude sucks, that's on them. It's not on us to enable them.
It's not just about one incidence of some mistakenly pedantic comments, as has been made clear by many, many people. It's a pattern of behaviour over years combined with no interest in listening to other people or accepting that he might be in the wrong. His behaviour towards women in particular has resulted in a lot of people sharing stories of his behaviour which, on their own, should be enough for someone to be considered a problem. This latest incident is just what it took to finally tip things over the edge.
This article then goes on to talk about people like Stallman being needed, or essential for something like free software. It doesn't matter, even if it was true, which there is no way of proving, it's pure assertion. Phrases like "required someone who couldn’t take a hint" might sound all perseverance and dedication to this writer, but perhaps going and asking women what comes to mind when they hear about people like this might be an eye opener.
Without him students wouldn't have as many free tools? Maybe, but maybe they would have other tools, better tools, built by the people his behaviour, and the behaviour of people like him, have driven from the industry before they got a chance to have the impact that people like him seem to assume is a right.
AFACT, the strongest argument in favour of the removal of RMS is by Thomas Bushnell[0]. The best counter-argument to that, which I could find, is by Thomas Lord[1][2]. I haven't found any replies to the latter.
(There's also the meta-issue that rule-by-lying-journalists-and-misinformed-mob is terrifying and despicable, but it doesn't affect the object-level question of whether RMS significantly contributed and/or contributes towards making MIT and the free-software world unwelcoming to women.)
Sadly, a large number of people seem to have decided that their feelings are more important than the truth. That if something makes you feel bad, this means it is bad and must be destroyed.
This is like how a dark basement might be scary to a child. A normal adult would explain that the basement is actually harmless, and teach the child to see it for what it really is and learn not be afraid of it. The feelings-first crowd would have us simply destroy all basements.
Feelings are important and can help point you in a direction, but they need to be tempered with reason and logic before resulting in action.
People who act solely on feelings are also easy to manipulate because talented writers, actors, etc can evoke strong feelings about anything regardless of facts.
It does rather smack of the old police tactic: When someone's known to have done something Bad, but the police cannot prove it, they send them to prison for a minor crime such as tax evasion.
I'm not saying that RMS has committed any crimes of course, but there are other reasons that people do not see him as a political figure that they can rally behind in the modern day. A lot of this is entirely about image. People feel uncomfortable having an aging, socially irrepressible person in charge of an organisation which they support. A (seemingly false) allegation is all that it took to bring those qualms to the fore.
Also I note that the author tacitly avoids the other comments which RMS has historically made, in particular with regards to abuse of minors, instead focusing on the one which was incorrectly taken out of context.
Funny enough on how the industry has taken free-software and its 'open-source' derived ideas for granted and they have all originated from the FSF and its founder RMS.
But when social media archaeologists revive past 'thought crimes' from 20+ years ago to use against anyone, it is ridiculous to completely silence and exclude them from society, especially someone like Stallman who is very principled in his cause.
We live in a world that you cant diverge a little bit. You can't have a different personality. You can't just say the truth or be technically corrent because it may also happen to be politically incorrent.
You have to go with the flow. But still people expect from you to be a superstar of what you are doing.
Can we please stop removing Stallman discussions from the front page?
I understand we want to keep things civil on HN, but the reality is that this dramatically impacts this community and all developers - probably more than we realize on the surface.
I
Discussing it and essentially letting everyone voice their thoughts is a way to both (a) come to consensus and (b) potentially see view points.
As it stands the “media” has a voice, most developers come to Hacker News.
> There are two possibilities here. Either the author of the Medium post was not capable of correctly parsing the sentence, or she didn’t care about truth and was leveling as many accusations as possible in the hope that one would stick.
Either I am vastly overestimating the quality of american top university education, or the first option is highly unlikely. So, who benefits from Stallman getting removed from the picture? Or, given that the original author was also from MIT, maybe it was just some sort of personal grievance?
Funny, the "professionals" took over. I knew it was inevitable when software engineers started arguing for certification, talked about how they were so much better people because they hated writing code outside their jobs, talking about how people learning to code was a conspiracy to ruin software engineer salaries, and began constraining strictly the spaces that people could act in. All that was always a harbinger of IBM-as-life.
Of course this is inevitable. When I was young, you just did what you did and tried to find other people who also did what you did. Maybe they liked you, maybe they didn't. If they didn't you found someone else or you made that group of people. It was all about freely associating.
The nerds got beaten but that was always going to happen when this thing became big.
When Terry Davis (of Losethos fame) said deeply offensive things that were personally offensive to me, we all tried to understand that it came from a troubled mind, that we could admire the work without tolerating the outbursts. With the socially awkward folks, it was even easier. We could gently direct while moderating their extremes.
Cancel culture is a mistake. I'm not bold enough to face it under my real name so I'm just going to weather it under the tarps where my people stand with their tenets like lit beacons barely visible in a storm. If you invoke Crocker's Rules, if you can forgive and redirect, and if you can disagree with words without invoking nuclear retribution, you can find the rest of us in our scattered micro-communities.
It seems the damage is done and cannot be reversed.
About the only lesson you can learn from this is that if you really cherish Freedom of Speech, then you actually require Fuck-you money to practice that right effectively.
> You don’t get the free software movement without a person like Richard Stallman. Its success depended on a stubborn pedantic ideologue. It required someone who couldn’t take a hint.
This is really the crux of the matter. Richard Stallman should absolutely be held accountable for the stupid things that he has said. The problem is that humanity _really_ needs people like Richard Stallman- very few others have made such a practical (Emacs) and political impact on software, and by extension, the world as we know it. There aren't many Richard Stallmans, and if you get rid of all them then _really_ bad things will happen.
It is equally important that he is punished, that he repents, and that he continues his work.
I agree. Some of the posters say that software would have been better if the people he made uncomfortable weren't made uncomfortable by him and thus continued making software. That is extremely implausible. People who do software because it is something they are passionate about would not be so fragile, and that is necessary to make ground breaking changes.
I sometimes hear people say "if tech wasn't stereotyped as a bunch of nerds, there would be more women in it". This ignores the fact that there is a strong causal relationship between being perceived as a nerd and having a serious interested in software. It's like saying "if I didn't hold people who do software in contempt, then I might have done software!".
[+] [-] coldtea|6 years ago|reply
Inclusiveness -- but let's ostracize the non-conforming aspie...
Fairness -- but let's fire people or make them resign from unrelated positions for their personal opinions, because obviously all of a person's life should serve as a big PR, and god forbid they don't play the role 24/7. Someone might call them for it on Twitter, and what could their employee/organization do other than fire them? (in the "Land of the free" nonetheless)
Not to mention the blatant conformity and blandness -- punishing experimentation, personality, eccentricity, being the devil's advocate, controversiality, and, worse of all, being 'unprofessional' (as if the FSF is something akin to 1970s IBM)...
First they came for Patch Adams...
The current environment rewards the worst kind of scum: holier-than-thou hypocritical tell-tales and people who enjoy yielding power over others by drawing lynch-mobs.
I have wrote against Epstein here in several threads, but I could have lunch with a person who has controversial opinions on the matter like Stallman. People like those who finger-pointed and cheered on the personal consequences on Stallman, I'd prefer to live in another universe from.
Are you happy now? Justice for Epstein's victims served? (on someone who never even met Epstein)
Speak up now, or don't bother to cry crocodile tears and set up the "black ribbon" when we eventually lose Stallman, and tell stories of how he inspired you, etc...
[+] [-] TeMPOraL|6 years ago|reply
Until this debacle I didn't realize so many people in our industry can voluntarily refrain from most basic reading comprehension. There's no discussion with people who simply refuse to read and comprehend a plain English sentence. There were moments I felt this was approaching Varelse level of Foreignness[0] - a mind so alien that it's hard to communicate, a mind that looks at a written sentence and understands the exact opposite of what it was communicating.
--
[0] - https://enderverse.fandom.com/wiki/Hierarchy_of_Foreignness
[+] [-] hizanberg|6 years ago|reply
None of the hit piece articles I've read portrayed a true characterization of what he wrote, most presented quotes out of context and instead focused their efforts on colorful commentary to suggest he was somehow in support of child rape - an accusation that's clear to invoke the ire of the masses.
If he were more socially apt maybe he would've known to never share his opinion of what he assumed the thoughts of his late friend were, not even on a private mailing list, unless of course it's to join the chorus of hate and accusations against him.
[+] [-] meerita|6 years ago|reply
BTW: I have also suffered the tough, complicated, unstable and rare personality of Stallman. Not for that I want to see him dead but like everyone else, when he has been unrespectful with me, I let him know. Everyone who knows Stallman knows he's a complicated and tough guy with very radical opinions and position. I was at a conference where he was cleaning the dirt from his toes while explaining everything, imagine the scene…
[+] [-] cambalache|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mcv|6 years ago|reply
I admit I haven't been following this news very well so far, so I'm doubtless missing some important facts. I'd heard Stallman was stepping down because of something he said about Minsky, but I have no idea what that was. If this is it, and this article is correct (edit: based on additional info here and elsewhere, it seems Stallman has a long history of questionable behaviour towards women that was also addressed in the initial article, so this new article is omitting quite a bit), then I'm baffled that he has to step down from anything. What he said, that the girl was coerced to appear willing, seems pretty clear to me, and presenting that as him saying that she was actually willing, sounds like a pretty clear and blatant lie to me. Seems worth criticising the organisations that spread that lie.
I'm generally in favour of fighting rape culture and child abuse with all that we've got, and Epstein is clearly pure evil. If Minsky has sex with an underage girl, it doesn't even matter whether she appeared willing or not; that's just wrong. In that sense, Stallman sticking up for his friend was probably not the greatest idea, but if he said she was coerced, and not actually willing, then it's wrong that he should lose his job for saying things he never said.
And yeah, sure, Stallman is a weirdo. Occasionally even a disgusting weirdo maybe (I remember a video where he seemed to pick something from his toes and put it in his mouth), and I recently read a description of events where he publicly embarrassed a woman for being present at a tech related event. (Edit: it seems he has a long history creepiness towards young women, including his students.) If you're gonna fire him, fire him for that, not for something he didn't even say in a private mailing list.
In general, I'm fine with weirdos. We need more of them, not less. Being a weirdo is no excuse to act like an asshole, but on its own it's no reason to ostracise someone.
But this issue? If the description from the article is correct, it seems based on a blatant lie.
[+] [-] mc32|6 years ago|reply
That said the language of diversity, fairness, inclusivity, tolerance, etc. isn’t meant to be taken literally (though it is by the intended audience, expectedly), or alternatively it’s applied at the discretion of those in power at the time. In the USSR and China (and other places) terms got used and abused to defeat previous in-groups (factions who held the same beliefs, mind you) who were taking too much power or were threatening those in power (even though all these people were in the same group or party).
All these terms are tools. They kind of mean them but they are double edged swords which will be used at discretion and will be interpreted at discretion as well.
[+] [-] eternalban|6 years ago|reply
They pulled the same crap in China, with excitable young minds as useful idiots serving the hidden political agendas of actors behind the scene.
It is informative to seriously review the Cultural Revolution, and the ensuing damage to the Chinese nation.
[+] [-] claudeganon|6 years ago|reply
https://medium.com/@selamjie/remove-richard-stallman-appendi...
Someone else downthread also linked about how a woman he worked with on a Linux project had to be warned of his arrival ahead of time so she could leave because of his aggressive advances toward her.
[+] [-] alltakendamned|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] raxxorrax|6 years ago|reply
The MIT and some members of the FSF should be ashamed of themselves.
Never heard anything worthwhile from his critics. It is certainly not Stallman that makes our industry look bad. That is on you and that is all there is to say.
[+] [-] pron|6 years ago|reply
Diversity: It's not about opinion, but about an authority figure doing things that harm his colleagues. I could have the opinion that you're an idiot and a liar, but if we were working together and I would constantly say that in the workplace where everyone hears, I would probably get fired.
Inclusiveness: It's not about ostracising, either, certainly not because of some mental disability. If someone harms his coworkers and won't stop, they cannot continue working.
Fairness: Again, the problem is not opinions but harmful actions. It certainly isn't about conformity. Harming the people you work with is not some sign of genius conducive to creativity.
I think that too many people are expressing strong opinions on the matter of sexual harassment and sexual assault without having studied the subject at all. Those are opinions based on deep ignorance of the matter.
[+] [-] DocTomoe|6 years ago|reply
Let them have their own industry.
[+] [-] agumonkey|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] primroot|6 years ago|reply
"What he should have done was in my opinion deliver one policy speech. 'This is where we stand on antisemitism. This is where we stand on the mechanisms for dealing with antisemitism in our party. Case closed.' The other major mistake he made was .. a complete abandonment of the principle of free speech. People have a right to say and think whatever they want. 'I'm a member of the Labour Party. OK. I subscribe to Labour Party's political platform. That's what makes me a member.' But that doesn't mean you have the right to troll my Facebook postings, you have the right to vet everything I say or post on Instagram. I mean that's Romania under Ceausescu, that's North Korea under Kim Il Sung. That's now going to be the mandate of the Labour Party? To be trolling in your thoughts and ideas? To see whether you are an antisemite? Everybody, including you, including your camera people harbors some antisemitic stereotypes... OK. Who cares? I mean It's very hard to extirpate, ... because it's rooted in thousands of years. I mean it's everywhere. It's part of the atmosphere, it's part of the environment, it's part of the history. Do I not harbor any anti-black stereotypes any racist stereotypes? Do I harbor no sexist stereotypes? No! And now we are going to have a Labour Party, which is going to [?] the depths of your conscience, ... looking for some evidence of antisemitism, ...? It's complete lunacy and it's a complete repudiation, abandonment of the most fundamental principles of what's called the Enlightenment beginning with as the Germans put it in that nice German folk song Die Gedanken sind Frei (Thoughts are free). People have the right to think what they believe, and since thought is inseparable from speech, you have the right to think and speak as you please. And if you don't like what a person is saying then you have the right either not to listen or try to persuade the person ... but what you don't have the right to do is penalize people, punish people, expel people for their thoughts... It's a complete political disaster because all it does is it forces people to repress what they're thinking until a demagogue comes along and starts saying what you're thinking, what you were forced to repress. And instead of your erroneous thoughts having been answered, the fact that you were forced to repress them, it validates it for you. ... And then the demagogue comes along and starts to exploit all of those repressed thoughts. So morally it's unacceptable to try to police people's thoughts and politically it's a complete disaster." https://youtu.be/OPYfLY2cAi4?t=616
Update: There is also that famous video where Finkelstein talks about the "crocodile tears" of a German student taking about the son of Holocaust survivors being ... offensive. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6O5zgXeCynQ&t=209s
[+] [-] wozniacki|6 years ago|reply
I just hope that we applied the same rationale in an even-keeled and level-headed manner in other cases where similar concerns are raised.
I hope we don't make exceptions for our favorite pet causes no matter how close to the heart and rule against those who were found to have either voiced opinions or acted in an antagonistic manner to such causes, even when those decisions are thorny and sentimental.[1][2][3]
[1] Mozilla CEO resigns, opposition to gay marriage drew fire
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-mozilla-ceo-resignation/m...
[2] Mozilla CEO Brendan Eich resigns in wake of backlash to Prop 8
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/apr/03/mozilla-c...
[3] Did Mozilla CEO Brendan Eich Deserve To Be Removed From His Position?
https://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2014/04/11/did-mozilla-ce...
edit: typo
[+] [-] _57jb|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] CathedralBorrow|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|6 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] rvz|6 years ago|reply
You have just outlined the double-speak of the SV technocracy, which have imposed these hidden codes on those that they disagree with. Mind you that the media has now amplified this and have used all of this to create a new enemy called Richard Stallman. As long as this appalling cancel-culture behaviour stops, he certainly won't be the last one to fall victim to these purity tests.
Absolutely hypocritical indeed.
[+] [-] malcolmgreaves|6 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] kilo_bravo_3|6 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] urbanjunkie|6 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] notus|6 years ago|reply
Diversity - I'm fine with a lack of diversity of opinions on whether or not minors can be willing participants in pedophile relationships.
Inclusiveness - Really? Nobody ostracized him because he is an aspie. It is disingenuous to even say that.
Fairness - Nobody fired him, he resigned and let's be honest, the backlash he received was fairly minor. Yes old statements were dug up, but most people are not okay with the statements he made then, they just didn't know about them.
> holier-than-thou hypocritical tell-tales and people who enjoy yielding power over others by drawing lynch-mobs
Who does this label apply to? Anyone who gets upset at a public figure's viewpoints? Where are you personally drawing the line between acceptable and unacceptable.
This isn't just about Epstein. Epstein is what brought Stallman's views to the spotlight, but the focus is primarily on former stances on pedophilia he made that are far more damaging things to say than whatever people were saying he said about Epstein or the girls involved with him. Stallman doesn't seem to believe that people can be groomed into appearing like they want to do something when they really don't or aren't aware of the consequences of it.
[+] [-] CrackerNews|6 years ago|reply
For the positive freedom liberals, diversity of minorities must be enforced and any opinion that may hinder them must be silenced. However, this is taken to a logical extreme.
Every identity must be inclusive and forced to be inclusive and accomodating even if they may be a minority themself.
In the logical extreme, fairness under the legal court is thrown out because the legal court is viewed as corrupt from being staffed with corrupt figures favoring the majority identity.
Extrajudicial means are employed to force minority identities upward because they don't believe that the negative freedom of the free market can allow for that.
Eccentricity is still allowed, however it is a different kind than the one of computer nerds like Richard Stallman. Non-conforming gender identities or images of body beauty are a-okay but not awkward men. The acceptance of the awkward men were a triumph for the awkward men against the neurotypical men, but now they have become seen as the enemy against other minorities because now their cringe-inducing awkwardness is seen as a barrier to entry that drives off neurotypical minorities.
This is all really musical chairs operating under an inherently unjust system and instead of challenging that system, they only challenge the "bad" actors and hope that somehow the system will become more friendly for everyone.
[+] [-] gadders|6 years ago|reply
i.e. people shouldn't just protest it for people they like, but people they hate or vehemently disagree with as well.
[+] [-] unknown|6 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] paganel|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] CPLX|6 years ago|reply
The very concept of statutory rape reinforces how clear this judgment is. The reference to "statutory" means that the mere facts of the act taking place mean that the conduct is off limits. Things like "consent" or even a misrepresentation of the person's age are generally considered irrelevant.
As a society we've decided that there aren't really exceptions to this. If sex with minors occurs it's not OK, there isn't much need to further investigate why it happened.
Stallman, and anyone else commenting here, has really no basis to claim ignorance of this phenomenally clear social norm, which if broken will result in being fired from just about any public facing institution. It's on a pretty short list of such norms, alongside things like displaying your genitals in a board meeting, ones highly principled views on nudism notwithstanding.
While I appreciate the efforts to make this into some kind of principled argument, I don't find "first they came for the people advocating for sex with minors" to be particularly compelling.
Nobody has suggested he be fined or jailed. His actions just make him unqualified to be a leader. The other people in those organization do get to have a say too you know.
[+] [-] antientropic|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mpweiher|6 years ago|reply
"Age of consent laws vary widely from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, though most jurisdictions set the age of consent in the range 14 to 18"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_consent
Things just got a lot murkier, didn't they. Actually, they have always been a lot murkier. Because "our culture" isn't actually homogenous. And these things have changed a lot over time.
> Expressing doubt about this cultural norm
Well, which norm excactly? The one at 14? Or the one at 18?
"some jurisdictions may also make allowances for minors engaged in sexual acts with each other, rather than a single age."
Murkier.
"There are many "grey areas" in this area of law, some regarding unspecific and untried legislation, others brought about by debates regarding changing societal attitudes, and others due to conflicts between federal and state laws. These factors all make age of consent an often confusing subject, and a topic of highly charged debates"
Are all the people in a society that has the 14 boundary horrible beyond the pale?
Or maybe things are a bit more complicated than you make them out to be.
[+] [-] Barrin92|6 years ago|reply
It wasn't just awkward demeanor. He actively made women feel unwelcome in the workplace and behaved unprofessionally over and over again.
> He held his positions at MIT, GNU, and the FSF for over thirty years, and in that time nobody accused him of coercion, unwanted touching, or verbal harassment
Yes, because of people like you, Geoff. When people like Stallman behave like they do and say the things they say they don't have to face the consequences because people don't want to speak up, because they're afraid of being called liars or censors. That's how authority figures and popular individuals keep getting away with it.
The second paragraph of the post is irrelevant and further proves the point. Stallman's contributions to free software don't excuse his conduct.
[+] [-] Insanity|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] toxik|6 years ago|reply
I submit that you cannot have innovation without inconvenient characters. You must allow a plurality of ideas and ideals to exist, even those that you find dumb or repulsive.
I don't personally like RMS very much, he seems like an annoying person, but he should not have had his life ruined for what amounted to an pedantic argument on a mailing list.
[+] [-] Traster|6 years ago|reply
Now let's address the underlying point: You don't get X good thing without Y bad behaviour. I don't agree with this. It's a weird sort of blackmail "Put up with my bad behaviour because you need me". Firstly, For all we know, if we had been less tolerant of bad treatment of people in the free software movement, it'd be a much more powerful movement today than if we had allowed a small number of toxic individuals to take leadership roles and drive out many potential contributors. I see that as no less likely than the scenario put out in this defense.
Secondly, this attitude shifts the responsibility away from the individual for their actions. If someone has a lot to contribute but it never happens because their attitude sucks, that's on them. It's not on us to enable them.
[+] [-] kolektiv|6 years ago|reply
It's not just about one incidence of some mistakenly pedantic comments, as has been made clear by many, many people. It's a pattern of behaviour over years combined with no interest in listening to other people or accepting that he might be in the wrong. His behaviour towards women in particular has resulted in a lot of people sharing stories of his behaviour which, on their own, should be enough for someone to be considered a problem. This latest incident is just what it took to finally tip things over the edge.
This article then goes on to talk about people like Stallman being needed, or essential for something like free software. It doesn't matter, even if it was true, which there is no way of proving, it's pure assertion. Phrases like "required someone who couldn’t take a hint" might sound all perseverance and dedication to this writer, but perhaps going and asking women what comes to mind when they hear about people like this might be an eye opener.
Without him students wouldn't have as many free tools? Maybe, but maybe they would have other tools, better tools, built by the people his behaviour, and the behaviour of people like him, have driven from the industry before they got a chance to have the impact that people like him seem to assume is a right.
[+] [-] haukilup|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gnomewascool|6 years ago|reply
(There's also the meta-issue that rule-by-lying-journalists-and-misinformed-mob is terrifying and despicable, but it doesn't affect the object-level question of whether RMS significantly contributed and/or contributes towards making MIT and the free-software world unwelcoming to women.)
[0] https://medium.com/@thomas.bushnell/a-reflection-on-the-depa...
[1] https://twitter.com/thomas_lord/status/1174433645110513664
[2] https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1174433645110513664.html
[+] [-] imgabe|6 years ago|reply
This is like how a dark basement might be scary to a child. A normal adult would explain that the basement is actually harmless, and teach the child to see it for what it really is and learn not be afraid of it. The feelings-first crowd would have us simply destroy all basements.
Feelings are important and can help point you in a direction, but they need to be tempered with reason and logic before resulting in action.
People who act solely on feelings are also easy to manipulate because talented writers, actors, etc can evoke strong feelings about anything regardless of facts.
[+] [-] johnday|6 years ago|reply
I'm not saying that RMS has committed any crimes of course, but there are other reasons that people do not see him as a political figure that they can rally behind in the modern day. A lot of this is entirely about image. People feel uncomfortable having an aging, socially irrepressible person in charge of an organisation which they support. A (seemingly false) allegation is all that it took to bring those qualms to the fore.
Also I note that the author tacitly avoids the other comments which RMS has historically made, in particular with regards to abuse of minors, instead focusing on the one which was incorrectly taken out of context.
[+] [-] rvz|6 years ago|reply
But when social media archaeologists revive past 'thought crimes' from 20+ years ago to use against anyone, it is ridiculous to completely silence and exclude them from society, especially someone like Stallman who is very principled in his cause.
[+] [-] gargalatas|6 years ago|reply
You have to go with the flow. But still people expect from you to be a superstar of what you are doing.
[+] [-] lettergram|6 years ago|reply
Can we please stop removing Stallman discussions from the front page?
I understand we want to keep things civil on HN, but the reality is that this dramatically impacts this community and all developers - probably more than we realize on the surface. I Discussing it and essentially letting everyone voice their thoughts is a way to both (a) come to consensus and (b) potentially see view points.
As it stands the “media” has a voice, most developers come to Hacker News.
[+] [-] sannee|6 years ago|reply
Either I am vastly overestimating the quality of american top university education, or the first option is highly unlikely. So, who benefits from Stallman getting removed from the picture? Or, given that the original author was also from MIT, maybe it was just some sort of personal grievance?
[+] [-] gosub|6 years ago|reply
The most disgusting thing is that whose who witch-hunted him, from their higher moral ground, will face no consequences at all.
[+] [-] scarejunba|6 years ago|reply
Of course this is inevitable. When I was young, you just did what you did and tried to find other people who also did what you did. Maybe they liked you, maybe they didn't. If they didn't you found someone else or you made that group of people. It was all about freely associating.
The nerds got beaten but that was always going to happen when this thing became big.
When Terry Davis (of Losethos fame) said deeply offensive things that were personally offensive to me, we all tried to understand that it came from a troubled mind, that we could admire the work without tolerating the outbursts. With the socially awkward folks, it was even easier. We could gently direct while moderating their extremes.
Cancel culture is a mistake. I'm not bold enough to face it under my real name so I'm just going to weather it under the tarps where my people stand with their tenets like lit beacons barely visible in a storm. If you invoke Crocker's Rules, if you can forgive and redirect, and if you can disagree with words without invoking nuclear retribution, you can find the rest of us in our scattered micro-communities.
Good luck.
[+] [-] forgot_user1234|6 years ago|reply
"Whatever conduct you want to criticize, you should describe it with a specific term that avoids moral vagueness about the nature of the criticism."
[+] [-] ukj|6 years ago|reply
About the only lesson you can learn from this is that if you really cherish Freedom of Speech, then you actually require Fuck-you money to practice that right effectively.
[+] [-] fergie|6 years ago|reply
This is really the crux of the matter. Richard Stallman should absolutely be held accountable for the stupid things that he has said. The problem is that humanity _really_ needs people like Richard Stallman- very few others have made such a practical (Emacs) and political impact on software, and by extension, the world as we know it. There aren't many Richard Stallmans, and if you get rid of all them then _really_ bad things will happen.
It is equally important that he is punished, that he repents, and that he continues his work.
[+] [-] nql|6 years ago|reply
I sometimes hear people say "if tech wasn't stereotyped as a bunch of nerds, there would be more women in it". This ignores the fact that there is a strong causal relationship between being perceived as a nerd and having a serious interested in software. It's like saying "if I didn't hold people who do software in contempt, then I might have done software!".