When eBay first started, I loved the idea of auctions as a way to set market prices. From an economic and game-theory perspective, it is so optimal!
Clearly as later examples like Amazon have shown, auctions don't make sense for most product categories. I believe this is mainly due to psychological reasons.
Decision-fatigue is a real thing. People dislike having to think hard. In a fixed-price sale, the buyer just has to ask themselves one yes/no question: "Would I be happy buying this item for $X?" This is a very simple question to answer. In a sealed-bid auction, people have to ask themselves "What $X am I willing to pay for this item", which is a tremendously more complex question to answer. In fact, from a game theory perspective, you should never put in a bid that you're "happy with". You should put in a bid where you're exactly neutral between buying-vs-not-buying. Otherwise, you're leaving money on the table. This is asking people to make purchasing decisions whose outcomes will leave them explicitly not happy - a state of mind that every person hates putting themselves in.
Couple this together with the fact that the buyer doesn't even know whether they won the auction, until X hours/days later. And during this period of time, they are under a state of uncertainty, which is another mental state that people generally hate.
I think that for very expensive, non-time-critical and hobbyist items, an auction may work great. People may actually enjoy pouring effort into it because it is their hobby. But for any item that people just want to buy-and-move-on, auctions are a horrible mechanism. Perhaps one day when AI assistants make all our purchasing decisions for us, auctions will become the norm, but certainly not today.
> You should put in a bid where you're exactly neutral between buying-vs-not-buying. Otherwise, you're leaving money on the table. This is asking people to make purchasing decisions whose outcomes will leave them explicitly not happy - a state of mind that every person hates putting themselves in.
It seems that this is a problem the Vickrey auction solves. By charging the price offered by the 11th highest bidder, they are ensuring that everyone pays less than or equal to their bid, and most likely less than.
This works out perfectly if everyone actually bids their neutral point: the winners are all either neutral or happy (most likely happy), the 11th is neutral, and the losers are all neutral or happy (most likely happy).
In practice, people bid at a price that they'd be happy to get it, so actually the 11th will feel slightly miffed that they weren't able to purchase at that price. And of course all the losers will be annoyed that it cost so much. But the former problem can't really be helped, and the latter is baked into basic supply-demand.
Increasing bid auctions, reverse auctions, and Vickrey auctions all have their pros and cons.
Estate auctions and multi-seller auctions at auction warehouses give liquidity to the assets that would take a lot of time and energy to list and sell individually. Contrary to the scenes of Christie's and Sotheby's in TV and film, many auctions don't come extensively catalogued. It's often just "Here's another batch of knickknacks. Bidding starts at $3" or "Here's four more boxes of books, mostly nonfiction. Will anyone bid $5?"
> When eBay first started, I loved the idea of auctions as a way to set market prices. From an economic and game-theory perspective, it is so optimal!
> Clearly as later examples like Amazon have shown, auctions don't make sense for most product categories. I believe this is mainly due to psychological reasons.
I've always loved eBay as a way to introduce sanity into the prices of old/used items. Especially computer equipment, where "regular vendors" would rather let it sit on the shelf marked at 10x what its worth than actually price it to a level someone would be willing to pay.
Of course for new items, it never made any sense. The eBay prices were sometimes even higher than regular vendors, hoping to catch people in the place they happened to be looking.
I just do not trust that my item will gain enough traffic during the 7 day auction for there to be any competitive bidding. If there's not competitive bidding, it will sell for around the low initial bid.
Much better to stage a "Reverse Auction" via Buy It Now + Easy Pricing. People can discover the item over weeks/months, and Watch it. When the price drops every week, they get an email. When it's low enough, they can buy immediately with no bidding or waiting.
It's not about complexity, it's about convenience. The simplest bid on eBay is... the highest price you'll pay for it.
However, most people didn't think of it that way or want to do that (believe me I worked there for years), and they didn't like the chance to lose it anyway after waiting (snipers and bid shilling got ridiculous).
Fixed price is easier and you get it quicker. It may be less complex but if the price looks reasonable it's definitely more convenient.
Amazon has seller-side auctions with its third party system. Presumably this results in a little bit of competition to lower prices, but there aren't really enough third party sellers to make it happen.
Treasury bills are probably the largest auction held regularly and they seem to work well. But consumers all place non-competitive bids while the competitive bidding is left to expert financial firms.
If I had to guess I'd say the real issue is people don't understand economics and would rather buy something at whatever price than spend the effort to identify a good price. Certainly my roommates at college never bothered picking out what was on sale, or even looked at the flyer. And I think the rest of the populace pays more attention to the size of the coupon than the price of the item.
It's not only the price, it's the time and certainty, resources often more scarce than money.
A fixed price item is yours once you have paid for it. The amount you have paid is also known and fixed.
In an auction, there can be no certainty for days.
An auction may make sense (to me) for very expensive items, where a 10% difference can affect my ability to pay, but I am not in a hurry. Then the uncertainty can be worth it. Something like a car maybe.
For daily items, it absolutely does not apply. Paying 50¢ less for a tube of toothpaste? Nice, but doesn't beat not having toothpaste in the morning because I lost my bid and the next auction ends in 2 days.
The biggest reason why I use amazon over eBay is because I buy things I actually need, and I like knowing when I click the button I will have it tomorrow vs maybe not getting it ever.
To expand on this, Amazon’s Subscribe and Save is decision-fatigue on steroids. Maybe one day (with A.I.) Amazon can figure out how to order everything I need, when I need it. It’s already really handy for Tide to come once a month for a good price without thinking.
With respect to the high price, it seems pretty simple really. Some people have a fair bit of money that they're willing to spend on their enthusiasms. This wouldn't even be a notable question if, instead of mechanical keyboards, we were talking "designer" handbags, shoes, custom-made suits, etc.
The auction question is more interesting. Auctions are well accepted when there's clear scarcity or uniqueness in what's being sold. With manufactured good, we at least harbor illusions that there's some relationship with cost. But for niche items, that's not really true of course.
These things have become so esoteric and expensive because the mechanical keyboard hobby is undergoing a more intense version of what happens to most hobbies/pastimes; the purpose of the hobby has transitioned from primarily "making/using the thing" to "obtaining and displaying ever more extreme versions of the thing to impress other people who know about the thing".
I feel like this is an outgrowth of the basic human desire to form groups and define an in-group and an out-group; people start a hobby because they are interested in whatever, but after a while there develops an (often arbitrary) right way and wrong way to pursue the hobby, cliques form, and after a while participating in the hobby becomes an exercise in demonstrating that you've bought/made/done the right things and are therefore worthy of being in the in-group instead of the out-group.
I think this is so strong in the mechanical keyboard community because there's not a lot of "there" there; mechanical keyboards are nice to type on, but there's no core competitive activity that they're used for - you're not spending $1600 on a keyboard to improve your typing speed and accuracy 1.2% so you can have a shot at winning the big annual World Typing Tournament in Las Vegas. The mechanical keyboard community feels to me more like the streetwear or sneakerhead community than, say, R/C planes or surfing or whatever.
I think the author underestimates how amateurish many people selling keyboard parts are (i.e. rarely fully or never committed to the work as their employment, and without any experience in sales, manufacturing, marketing, distribution). Optimizing pricing or marketing strategies is not, afaict, deeply considered. Money is consistently left on the table. Look into the madness of first-party 'artisan' keycap sales, for example.
To be fair, there's nothing really wrong with this, since it is just a hobby for most people involved, and these sorts of products really often are just making something you want to exist and selling a few more to meet minimum order quantity.
1.6K seems a bit steep. You can find most kits in the low 00s
However mechanical keyboards are popular with gamers and more about collectibles / art than anything, so price becomes less relevant.
If you're after ergonomics and efficiency Keyboard.io and Ergodox offer decently priced pre built split keyboards.
I have a $600+ keyboard so I'm a part of this hobby. However, only a part of this can be explained by the expense of manufacturing at a small scale. The hobby fully embraces the drawbacks of the small scale and intentionally does nothing to try to improve it because the exclusivity drives prices up to an insane point.
A typical group buy for a popular case sells out in minutes or days time after time. Clearly some of the exclusivity is artificial.
An aluminum case that costs $300 is often 99% as nice as one for $1000.
There are designers lauded as geniuses that make cases that are almost identical to generic ones. It might have some kind of logo or inlay or a different color of anodized aluminum. Aftermarket they'll be worth insane amounts of money.
And with keycaps pretty much the entire thing is artificial exclusivity. $300-400 aftermarket for a set of keycaps is not unheard of.
There's nothing wrong with any of this, but as a happy participant I have to say the diminishing returns show up hard and fast in this hobby. Its all about fashion.
My $60 GMMK, with 20 minutes of easy modifications, a $30 set of keycaps, and a $90 set of healios switches was the smoothest linear keyboard I've ever used.
If you want clicky, the same setup with a $30 set of Box Jade switches will get most people the best keyboard they've ever used. Mx blues feel like rubber domes afterwards.
Interesfing article that talks about some of this. I recommend reading it.
Why did I pay $600+? I wanted an Ergodox split keyboard with helios switches + backlighting, to see if my wrists would feel better, and I didn't think I was ready to build a kit that required soldering.
My Keycaps cost 170 of that. They are modelled after the Space Cadet keyboard from an old LISP Machine. This was uneccessary obviously but I liked them.
It's disappointing how so much money is being poured into "mechanical keyboard kits" that simply re-create the old ANSI/ISO layouts that are rooted in old limitations from the days of the typewriter. Alternate layouts & ortholinear/ergonomic designs should be the forefront of the movement. All this focus on outdated designs makes the community "accessible" but also holds people back.
The emergence of row-staggered 40% boards is a particular disappointing anachronism. Don't think ortholinear boards can compete? OLKB boards usually sell several thousand every time a group buy runs, and the OLKB main store has a several-month long wait list. People who buy keycaps for these can end up spending $140 for 140 keycaps, 48 of which they'll ever even use... $200 minimum if they don't want Qwerty. The demand is there.
People dream about that old GITS typing scene, but we'll never achieve it when our instagram influencers are always hyping this kind of stuff. Japan at least has the right focus - Corne, Helidox, Lily58, Biacco42, and NumAtreus were all created in the past couple of years, with countless more coming.
>Alternate layouts & ortholinear/ergonimic designs should be the forefront of the movement.
Ehh. There are a lot of good reasons to have layouts that are fairly common across all the equipment you'll use. From what I've seen, while there may be some advantages to different layouts and configurations, very few things are so compelling as to warrant a wholesale change outside of some niches like court stenographers for which specialized training is justified.
Agreed. Modeling your own keyboard chassis is possible, and there's plenty of open source models to start from. If you have access to a 3d printer you get down to normal mechanical keyboard price range.
My own attempt is at https://github.com/dancek/dactyl-keyboard/tree/less-aggressi... . While I only have the left half built, I'd say that measuring fingers and tuning an ergonomic layout to your preferences works well. I don't expect to see a production keyboard as ergonomic. Ever.
N.b. the amount of work needed for this build is pretty ridiculous. There's a reason that keyboards are usually flat.
There's an entire sub-space of the mechanical keyboard hobby dedicated to custom DIY keyboards.
From what I have seen lately, the focus has been on eliminating the "stagger" of the keys and going more in a grid (but still keeping the mostly QWERTY layout - though some are experimenting with other layouts, too).
You have a few brave souls doing split and ergonomic styles, too. Then you have others who build specialty "keyboards" that are closer in scope to a 10-key with additional do-dads, mostly meant for games or other "macro" tasks (Photoshop and DAWs for instance).
Of course, there's also the people playing with chorded keyboards and such - but they've always have been fairly fringe (seeing as most of the time the purpose of such "keyboards" are for custom AR rigs and other wearable systems).
> It's disappointing how so much money is being poured into "mechanical keyboard kits" that simply re-create the old ANSI/ISO layouts that are rooted in old limitations from the days of the typewriter. Alternate layouts & ortholinear/ergonomic designs should be the forefront of the movement. All this focus on outdated designs makes the community "accessible" but also holds people back.
I mean most of the enthusiast keyboards allow you to program the keyboard so you can make the layout whatever you want.
Personally I won't buy any keyboard that isn't just a standard ten keyless because I
1) Don't want to have to remap my vim keys
2) Want other people to be able to use my keyboard
3) Want to be able to use other people's keyboards
The problem is you get to choose either a better layout or better keycaps.
My Mitosis has a really great layout but I paid more for non-legended caps so I could get the profile I wanted.
Other people with unusual ergo layouts go with non-sculpted profiles like DSA or SA R3 which I cannot stand.
Or you can go ANSI and get wonderful profiles like MT3 and DSS.
The compromise is to go with a standardized ergo layout like the Ergodox, which I regard as very suboptimal… its popularity stems from its availability and its availability stems from its popularity.
I'm someone who really wants to try one of these newer split keyboards, but absolutely does not want to solder the damn thing together myself. I not only wish there were more of these keyboards, but I wish it were easy to just buy one all put-together.
I am the owner of several keyboards whose total price is a few thousand. Most of that comes from one rare board which can fetch $3k+ in the aftermarket (TGR Jane V2 CE).
I really have a hard time explaining to people my purchases because it is just something I like for some reason. I love the customization and I liken it to having a project car... something I am saving up for right now.
I have also attended meetups and met a ton of great people through the hobby, so it is not just all throwing money around there is a social component.
I'm in the $600+ club too (Kepler that has a full brass bottom weight 6+kg, Kepler 65 with it's forged carbon top etc.)
It's a really strange hobby. A bunch of people who really value and love keyboards, the thing that sits between a human and a computer, a tool that many (developers, writers, gamers) use every day for hours on end.
Similar to how someone might invest in a nice knife if they love cooking, luxury-priced tools are quite a common category you see in hobbies.
The community is nice, and the pursuit of "endgame" continually drives supply, demand and the prices that go along with it up consistently. Next year, I wouldn't be surprised if we see several new $1000+ keyboards playing around with new finishes, materials and designs that cater to the high end of the hobby.
Oh wow, I have been living under a rock. My friends and family consider me a mechanical keyboard enthusiast/geek because I have two mechanical keyboards and a simple 6 switch tester that I used prior to purchasing my first mechanical keyboard, the CM Masterkeys Pro S RGB. I've tried explaining why I ordered a tester, why I chose Cherry MX Blues, but I don't think I managed to get my point across. So here I am, having spent around $250 on both my keyboards, an outrageous amount in the eyes of my non-technical friends and mom. At least my wife supports me, telling me she doesn't understand, but she likes seeing me so hyped and enthusiastic about it. Turns out I haven't spent that much! Interesting article and even more interesting discussion here on HN... I find it hard to justify paying $1,668 for a keyboard, but then again - it's an enthusiast market and I see the appeal.
One point that is not much discussed here is that software programmers earn generally quite a lot of money, and do tend to spend less on luxury items than bankers, which often means they have some cash on hands for this sort of things.
The custom keyboard kit is like the banker's rollex.
I so want to get into mechnical keyboards but most of my work is done on a 2015 MacBook Pro and I'm so efficient with the large trackpad - I rest my palms on the laptop and can reach everything with just a pivot of the wrist. I tried the Magic Trackpad, but I kept having to move my forearm and it just slowed me down too much.
What kind of mouse or trackpad is everyone using with these $xxx - $xxxx keyboards?
I use a trackball next to my keyboard which barely cracks the $100 barrier right now. The trackball won't change when the keyboard does in a few months.
How would you apply a Vickrey auction to SaaS subscription pricing?
The article gives an example for keyboards, where ten keyboards are for sale, and the top-ten customers pay the 11th price. But how would I apply this technique to software subscriptions, where I'd be happy to sell any number of them to willing buyers?
At my company we're doing something similar. Since the scale is a bit higher (several hundred items available) we're doing credit card holds to ensure buyers aren't doing this. If anyone backs out, it makes it a logistical nightmare to work out the new winners.
Of course, it also makes it a bit tricky if you want to edit your bid, since card holds can't be modified after the fact (except for hotels/restaurants).
It looks like in this case, the scale was small enough and the buyers/seller have enough trust not to make bogus bids.
the Vickrey auction mechanism itself is incentive compatible - each agent maximizes their utility by bidding their true value. the article wasn't explicit on this front* but it's true!
* "All buyers will likely all pay less than they were willing to pay, which makes ‘em feel like they got a good deal." -- buyers maximize utility by bidding true value, if they bid true value, they will _always_ pay no more than their true value, so the expected value is positive. there's no "likely" to it!
Why do exclusive wines fetch several hundred a bottle when in double blind tasting tests oenologists fail to differentiate them from 6€ supermarket wine?
Why does the same Malaysia made shirt go up in price 50x if it gets a top brand label attached a opposed to a cheap generic brand one?
This doesn't surprise me at all. Guitars are sold for thousands of dollars. I've been making the argument for years that someone should create a bespoke keyboard business. I don't want to start that business though, I want to be a customer. I spend all day working on a computer, why shouldn't I be as comfortable and efficient as possible with a custom designed and professionally built keyboard?
In my scenario the possible keyboards go well beyond picking mechanical switches and caps. Because I'm in the minority that actually likes the low travel and stable feel of the MacBook Pro keyboards, but the layout sucks and they don't make a standalone version. Essentially I want a modern keyboard with Meta, Super, Hyper in additional to Control, Option, and Command. And I want the keys moved too. I don't care if nobody else in the world would want this keyboard—the only thing that matters is that I want it. And I'd pay $1,000 - $3,000, maybe more for it.
A Vickrey auction is a type of sealed-bid auction. Bidders submit written bids without knowing the bid of the other people in the auction. The highest bidder wins but the price paid is the second-highest bid. This type of auction is strategically similar to an English auction and gives bidders an incentive to bid their true value. The auction was first described academically by Columbia University professor William Vickrey in 1961 though it had been used by stamp collectors since 1893. In 1797 Johann Wolfgang von Goethe sold a manuscript using a sealed-bid, second-price auction.
[+] [-] whack|6 years ago|reply
Clearly as later examples like Amazon have shown, auctions don't make sense for most product categories. I believe this is mainly due to psychological reasons.
Decision-fatigue is a real thing. People dislike having to think hard. In a fixed-price sale, the buyer just has to ask themselves one yes/no question: "Would I be happy buying this item for $X?" This is a very simple question to answer. In a sealed-bid auction, people have to ask themselves "What $X am I willing to pay for this item", which is a tremendously more complex question to answer. In fact, from a game theory perspective, you should never put in a bid that you're "happy with". You should put in a bid where you're exactly neutral between buying-vs-not-buying. Otherwise, you're leaving money on the table. This is asking people to make purchasing decisions whose outcomes will leave them explicitly not happy - a state of mind that every person hates putting themselves in.
Couple this together with the fact that the buyer doesn't even know whether they won the auction, until X hours/days later. And during this period of time, they are under a state of uncertainty, which is another mental state that people generally hate.
I think that for very expensive, non-time-critical and hobbyist items, an auction may work great. People may actually enjoy pouring effort into it because it is their hobby. But for any item that people just want to buy-and-move-on, auctions are a horrible mechanism. Perhaps one day when AI assistants make all our purchasing decisions for us, auctions will become the norm, but certainly not today.
[+] [-] SamBam|6 years ago|reply
It seems that this is a problem the Vickrey auction solves. By charging the price offered by the 11th highest bidder, they are ensuring that everyone pays less than or equal to their bid, and most likely less than.
This works out perfectly if everyone actually bids their neutral point: the winners are all either neutral or happy (most likely happy), the 11th is neutral, and the losers are all neutral or happy (most likely happy).
In practice, people bid at a price that they'd be happy to get it, so actually the 11th will feel slightly miffed that they weren't able to purchase at that price. And of course all the losers will be annoyed that it cost so much. But the former problem can't really be helped, and the latter is baked into basic supply-demand.
[+] [-] cestith|6 years ago|reply
Estate auctions and multi-seller auctions at auction warehouses give liquidity to the assets that would take a lot of time and energy to list and sell individually. Contrary to the scenes of Christie's and Sotheby's in TV and film, many auctions don't come extensively catalogued. It's often just "Here's another batch of knickknacks. Bidding starts at $3" or "Here's four more boxes of books, mostly nonfiction. Will anyone bid $5?"
[+] [-] octorian|6 years ago|reply
> Clearly as later examples like Amazon have shown, auctions don't make sense for most product categories. I believe this is mainly due to psychological reasons.
I've always loved eBay as a way to introduce sanity into the prices of old/used items. Especially computer equipment, where "regular vendors" would rather let it sit on the shelf marked at 10x what its worth than actually price it to a level someone would be willing to pay.
Of course for new items, it never made any sense. The eBay prices were sometimes even higher than regular vendors, hoping to catch people in the place they happened to be looking.
[+] [-] pkamb|6 years ago|reply
Much better to stage a "Reverse Auction" via Buy It Now + Easy Pricing. People can discover the item over weeks/months, and Watch it. When the price drops every week, they get an email. When it's low enough, they can buy immediately with no bidding or waiting.
[+] [-] catherd|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] daveheq|6 years ago|reply
However, most people didn't think of it that way or want to do that (believe me I worked there for years), and they didn't like the chance to lose it anyway after waiting (snipers and bid shilling got ridiculous).
Fixed price is easier and you get it quicker. It may be less complex but if the price looks reasonable it's definitely more convenient.
[+] [-] Mathnerd314|6 years ago|reply
Amazon has seller-side auctions with its third party system. Presumably this results in a little bit of competition to lower prices, but there aren't really enough third party sellers to make it happen.
Treasury bills are probably the largest auction held regularly and they seem to work well. But consumers all place non-competitive bids while the competitive bidding is left to expert financial firms.
If I had to guess I'd say the real issue is people don't understand economics and would rather buy something at whatever price than spend the effort to identify a good price. Certainly my roommates at college never bothered picking out what was on sale, or even looked at the flyer. And I think the rest of the populace pays more attention to the size of the coupon than the price of the item.
[+] [-] nine_k|6 years ago|reply
A fixed price item is yours once you have paid for it. The amount you have paid is also known and fixed.
In an auction, there can be no certainty for days.
An auction may make sense (to me) for very expensive items, where a 10% difference can affect my ability to pay, but I am not in a hurry. Then the uncertainty can be worth it. Something like a car maybe.
For daily items, it absolutely does not apply. Paying 50¢ less for a tube of toothpaste? Nice, but doesn't beat not having toothpaste in the morning because I lost my bid and the next auction ends in 2 days.
[+] [-] cortesoft|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rjmunro|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Bluecobra|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ghaff|6 years ago|reply
The auction question is more interesting. Auctions are well accepted when there's clear scarcity or uniqueness in what's being sold. With manufactured good, we at least harbor illusions that there's some relationship with cost. But for niche items, that's not really true of course.
[+] [-] CommieBobDole|6 years ago|reply
I feel like this is an outgrowth of the basic human desire to form groups and define an in-group and an out-group; people start a hobby because they are interested in whatever, but after a while there develops an (often arbitrary) right way and wrong way to pursue the hobby, cliques form, and after a while participating in the hobby becomes an exercise in demonstrating that you've bought/made/done the right things and are therefore worthy of being in the in-group instead of the out-group.
I think this is so strong in the mechanical keyboard community because there's not a lot of "there" there; mechanical keyboards are nice to type on, but there's no core competitive activity that they're used for - you're not spending $1600 on a keyboard to improve your typing speed and accuracy 1.2% so you can have a shot at winning the big annual World Typing Tournament in Las Vegas. The mechanical keyboard community feels to me more like the streetwear or sneakerhead community than, say, R/C planes or surfing or whatever.
[+] [-] Palomides|6 years ago|reply
To be fair, there's nothing really wrong with this, since it is just a hobby for most people involved, and these sorts of products really often are just making something you want to exist and selling a few more to meet minimum order quantity.
[+] [-] random3|6 years ago|reply
If you want to see the full range and get a sense of what this is about: https://old.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/ https://old.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/
1.6K seems a bit steep. You can find most kits in the low 00s However mechanical keyboards are popular with gamers and more about collectibles / art than anything, so price becomes less relevant.
If you're after ergonomics and efficiency Keyboard.io and Ergodox offer decently priced pre built split keyboards.
I personally find the keyboard.io camera mount genius - take a look at a few setups here https://community.keyboard.io/t/what-does-your-rsi-helping-s...
More resources: https://unikeyboard.io https://clueboard.co/ https://www.dygma.com/raise/
[+] [-] phaus|6 years ago|reply
A typical group buy for a popular case sells out in minutes or days time after time. Clearly some of the exclusivity is artificial.
An aluminum case that costs $300 is often 99% as nice as one for $1000.
There are designers lauded as geniuses that make cases that are almost identical to generic ones. It might have some kind of logo or inlay or a different color of anodized aluminum. Aftermarket they'll be worth insane amounts of money.
And with keycaps pretty much the entire thing is artificial exclusivity. $300-400 aftermarket for a set of keycaps is not unheard of.
There's nothing wrong with any of this, but as a happy participant I have to say the diminishing returns show up hard and fast in this hobby. Its all about fashion.
My $60 GMMK, with 20 minutes of easy modifications, a $30 set of keycaps, and a $90 set of healios switches was the smoothest linear keyboard I've ever used.
If you want clicky, the same setup with a $30 set of Box Jade switches will get most people the best keyboard they've ever used. Mx blues feel like rubber domes afterwards.
Interesfing article that talks about some of this. I recommend reading it.
Why did I pay $600+? I wanted an Ergodox split keyboard with helios switches + backlighting, to see if my wrists would feel better, and I didn't think I was ready to build a kit that required soldering.
My Keycaps cost 170 of that. They are modelled after the Space Cadet keyboard from an old LISP Machine. This was uneccessary obviously but I liked them.
[+] [-] equalunique|6 years ago|reply
The emergence of row-staggered 40% boards is a particular disappointing anachronism. Don't think ortholinear boards can compete? OLKB boards usually sell several thousand every time a group buy runs, and the OLKB main store has a several-month long wait list. People who buy keycaps for these can end up spending $140 for 140 keycaps, 48 of which they'll ever even use... $200 minimum if they don't want Qwerty. The demand is there.
People dream about that old GITS typing scene, but we'll never achieve it when our instagram influencers are always hyping this kind of stuff. Japan at least has the right focus - Corne, Helidox, Lily58, Biacco42, and NumAtreus were all created in the past couple of years, with countless more coming.
[+] [-] ghaff|6 years ago|reply
Ehh. There are a lot of good reasons to have layouts that are fairly common across all the equipment you'll use. From what I've seen, while there may be some advantages to different layouts and configurations, very few things are so compelling as to warrant a wholesale change outside of some niches like court stenographers for which specialized training is justified.
[+] [-] dancek|6 years ago|reply
My own attempt is at https://github.com/dancek/dactyl-keyboard/tree/less-aggressi... . While I only have the left half built, I'd say that measuring fingers and tuning an ergonomic layout to your preferences works well. I don't expect to see a production keyboard as ergonomic. Ever.
N.b. the amount of work needed for this build is pretty ridiculous. There's a reason that keyboards are usually flat.
[+] [-] Cactus2018|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kazinator|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] cr0sh|6 years ago|reply
From what I have seen lately, the focus has been on eliminating the "stagger" of the keys and going more in a grid (but still keeping the mostly QWERTY layout - though some are experimenting with other layouts, too).
You have a few brave souls doing split and ergonomic styles, too. Then you have others who build specialty "keyboards" that are closer in scope to a 10-key with additional do-dads, mostly meant for games or other "macro" tasks (Photoshop and DAWs for instance).
Of course, there's also the people playing with chorded keyboards and such - but they've always have been fairly fringe (seeing as most of the time the purpose of such "keyboards" are for custom AR rigs and other wearable systems).
[+] [-] rifung|6 years ago|reply
I mean most of the enthusiast keyboards allow you to program the keyboard so you can make the layout whatever you want.
Personally I won't buy any keyboard that isn't just a standard ten keyless because I
1) Don't want to have to remap my vim keys
2) Want other people to be able to use my keyboard
3) Want to be able to use other people's keyboards
[+] [-] CarVac|6 years ago|reply
My Mitosis has a really great layout but I paid more for non-legended caps so I could get the profile I wanted.
Other people with unusual ergo layouts go with non-sculpted profiles like DSA or SA R3 which I cannot stand.
Or you can go ANSI and get wonderful profiles like MT3 and DSS.
The compromise is to go with a standardized ergo layout like the Ergodox, which I regard as very suboptimal… its popularity stems from its availability and its availability stems from its popularity.
[+] [-] random3|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tvanantwerp|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] BubRoss|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] PhasmaFelis|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tentboy|6 years ago|reply
I really have a hard time explaining to people my purchases because it is just something I like for some reason. I love the customization and I liken it to having a project car... something I am saving up for right now.
I have also attended meetups and met a ton of great people through the hobby, so it is not just all throwing money around there is a social component.
Happy to answer any keyboard related questions!
[+] [-] lewisflude|6 years ago|reply
It's a really strange hobby. A bunch of people who really value and love keyboards, the thing that sits between a human and a computer, a tool that many (developers, writers, gamers) use every day for hours on end.
Similar to how someone might invest in a nice knife if they love cooking, luxury-priced tools are quite a common category you see in hobbies.
The community is nice, and the pursuit of "endgame" continually drives supply, demand and the prices that go along with it up consistently. Next year, I wouldn't be surprised if we see several new $1000+ keyboards playing around with new finishes, materials and designs that cater to the high end of the hobby.
[+] [-] artiscode|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] d--b|6 years ago|reply
The custom keyboard kit is like the banker's rollex.
[+] [-] terrellm|6 years ago|reply
What kind of mouse or trackpad is everyone using with these $xxx - $xxxx keyboards?
[+] [-] unknown|6 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] guidoism|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] achompas|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] CarVac|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] miceexpert|6 years ago|reply
Mice with holes. Your mouse must have holes.
https://i.redd.it/i5s6j18i3hp31.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/DSW0lvH.jpg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14d68Wgwevs
https://en.reddit.com/r/MouseReview/
[+] [-] dfabulich|6 years ago|reply
The article gives an example for keyboards, where ten keyboards are for sale, and the top-ten customers pay the 11th price. But how would I apply this technique to software subscriptions, where I'd be happy to sell any number of them to willing buyers?
[+] [-] sova|6 years ago|reply
We sell an online digital product that is subscription based. Do you think such a mechanism makes sense there, too?
[+] [-] chinhodado|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rhinoceraptor|6 years ago|reply
Of course, it also makes it a bit tricky if you want to edit your bid, since card holds can't be modified after the fact (except for hotels/restaurants).
It looks like in this case, the scale was small enough and the buyers/seller have enough trust not to make bogus bids.
[+] [-] huac|6 years ago|reply
* "All buyers will likely all pay less than they were willing to pay, which makes ‘em feel like they got a good deal." -- buyers maximize utility by bidding true value, if they bid true value, they will _always_ pay no more than their true value, so the expected value is positive. there's no "likely" to it!
[+] [-] dddddaviddddd|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] PeterStuer|6 years ago|reply
Why does the same Malaysia made shirt go up in price 50x if it gets a top brand label attached a opposed to a cheap generic brand one?
[+] [-] ekingr|6 years ago|reply
https://www.bloomberg.com/topics/money-stuff
[+] [-] eddieh|6 years ago|reply
In my scenario the possible keyboards go well beyond picking mechanical switches and caps. Because I'm in the minority that actually likes the low travel and stable feel of the MacBook Pro keyboards, but the layout sucks and they don't make a standalone version. Essentially I want a modern keyboard with Meta, Super, Hyper in additional to Control, Option, and Command. And I want the keys moved too. I don't care if nobody else in the world would want this keyboard—the only thing that matters is that I want it. And I'd pay $1,000 - $3,000, maybe more for it.
[+] [-] sebastianconcpt|6 years ago|reply
A Vickrey auction is a type of sealed-bid auction. Bidders submit written bids without knowing the bid of the other people in the auction. The highest bidder wins but the price paid is the second-highest bid. This type of auction is strategically similar to an English auction and gives bidders an incentive to bid their true value. The auction was first described academically by Columbia University professor William Vickrey in 1961 though it had been used by stamp collectors since 1893. In 1797 Johann Wolfgang von Goethe sold a manuscript using a sealed-bid, second-price auction.
[+] [-] pmarreck|6 years ago|reply