How are you claiming open source firmware when your hardware requires signed, closed source binaries to even begin to boot? I refer specifically to the Intel Management Engine, which incidentally is why we gave up on x86 many years ago.
How did you solve the GPU closed, signed firmware problem for discrete GPUs? How about the WiFi card firmware?
I understand your decision to try to keep compatibility with games and Windows, but the result is only partly open source, and that is not what these headlines read.
I know we would be interested in assisting System76 (or other prebuilt system OEMs) to start offering POWER products as true open source, owner controlled alternatives to Intel and AMD. For instance, we currently manufacture and sell mainboards that would be a perfect fit for your existing Thelio cases, that work very well with (optional) powerful AMD GPUs -- there's also a 2D HDMI graphics option for true blob-free operation. All you need to do is qualify our mainboard in your devices, and offer software support -- it's a very low risk investment all things considered but would allow System76 to sell truly open source systems vs. partly closed ones.
Is there some possible room for collaboration here? The GPU, WiFi, etc. firmware questions are honest questions -- the firmware is potential issue, and the more OEMs/ODMs that work this problem simultaneously in collaboration the higher the chance of a solution being found that will allow even those devices to be freed up and made secure.
Just wanted to give you some love. It must be really harsh for morale dealing with the OSS crowd who will always consider you don't do enough without recognizing that you are helping building a road where none existed before.
Why no AMD CPUs? I just don't buy anything Intel and I'm for some time looking at System76, but each time I go build a setup I remember why I gave up the last time around.
Also, with the price difference between the two it would be a more interesting hardware using this difference to acquire more RAM.
Have you thought of addressing the market of people wanting a small (12 to 13 inch), robuste, laptops with trackpoint and no arbitrary memory limitation?
Lenovo has abandoned that market, and there's enough demand for people to create and sell kits for it. Could System 76 fill that gap?
System76 has been so great for the Linux laptop community, thank you for your work on that! I got the Galago Pro this past holiday and it has been so perfect for me. :) I hope you guys continue to offer such a great range in hardware configurations. That's what convinced me to go for one of your laptops over the Razer/Dell products since their RAM limit was 16GB when I was shopping around.
I say that because I have been in the market for a laptop, and I am looking for a free(dom) based laptop. I looked there and it led me down the path of a Purism laptop.
Have you also thought about adding some sort of hardware kill switches for Cameras/microphones/Radios?
I would really love if the system76 laptops had hardware kill switches for the camera and the microphone. If the camera switch also physically occludes the lens, that would be great.
Just wanted to give a shout out and say my new System76 machine is awesome and the customer support has been top notch so far. The hardware support and updates have been great and the PoPs distro is great. Thanks for a great product.
I'm pretty happy with my Dell with Ubuntu, but it's really good to know there are other options out there, and I'll definitely be looking at these next time I need a new system.
How durable are those laptops when compared to other brands? Do you engineer those laptop a little like ibm did for thinkpads (if I remember, some of them had military rating for dust, temperature etc)? How repairable are they?
How difficult was it for those companies to provide components that were OSS friendly? What is the main hurdle? Does it increase costs? Did you experience fightback from providers to make this project happen?
However, on a semi-related note, will the issue where a firmware update on dual-boot system (popOS and Windows) consistently breaks systemd-boot, forcing a start into Windows, be addressed in the foreseeable future?
I've recently updated the documentation [1], as this issue plagued me multiple times.
What about oreboot, the Rust version of coreboot? I know you have a history with writing Rust code, so are you looking at oreboot as an alternative to coreboot for these purposes, as well?
In that discussion, several other good Linux notebooks were also discussed, including System 76. But it was reported there that the quality is quite bad:
> Mine is in the System 76 repair shop right now for the third time. Extremely unsatisfied with Oryx Pro materials and build quality. Oh it's back for the third time because when they replaced the top case last time, they installed a defective touch pad. Never again.
I wonder if that has been improved, as I'm really interested in a high quality Linux notebook.
These computers runs blobs in the firmware and are not fully open source.
I understand that modern users want modern performance, and that there is only a niche market for a librebooted computer (mostly due to performance), and as a company, it's systems76's responsibility to meet the market. But solutions exist, and if you are trying to market an open source computer, then give me an open source computer.
What I hate most is how the top comment is from Jeremy Soller, but they are literally using this forum as a marketing platform, only responding to the queries that potray their initiative as good, and ignoring the literal highest comment directly under their post.
This is so disingenuous, give me true libre laptop. (C-f tpearson-raptor on this post, they even offers a real solution from raptor to try and make this real).
I'm grossed out.
> but they are literally using this forum as a marketing platform
Almost every post on HN is for marketing. The net positive System76 is doing outweighs the negatives we have in today's software world. Be happy it's not BIOS-as-a-service that requires a subscription and is funded by a VC.
> that there is only a niche market for a librebooted computer (mostly due to performance), and as a company, it's systems76's responsibility to meet the market
I love what System76 is doing, but I have to say that the name Pop OS is just horrible. It just screams "toy" and sounds like a name that would come out of some fly by night junkware vendor. The exclamation mark makes it even worse. It's almost as bad as ending a name with "-ster."
Naming is hard, but almost anything would be better. If in doubt I'd go with something bland like "System76 Linux."
I bring this up because for the past 20 years closed silos and locked down platforms have won almost entirely on the basis of UI/UX and polish. System76's hardware looks good at first glance, but everything else matters too. An OS name that says "this is a toy and will be useless for real work" is a real problem for wider adoption. Even worse the name tends to transfer via mental association onto the hardware, conveying the idea that this laptop will fall apart.
BYO software is my #3 consumer electronics question (after form factor & 'does it work at all')
and drivers are an important frontier of this. SO TIRED of downloading blobs to have wifi on linux. AFAIK there isn't even a usb wifi dongle that has an open source wifi driver, much less a commercial wifi chipset.
even companies that are in theory dedicated to quality are teetering on the edge of using software to enable planned obsolescence -- and also releasing unpleasant product changes in line with security updates.
coreboot particularly interesting because of the TOTP work people have been doing on the TPM for tamper detection.
I spent a lot of time deliberating on what to replace my 13” MBP with. The idea of more open hardware is attractive, but both system76 and purism fell short (mainly battery life)
I ended up going with a Lenovo x1 carbón extreme and threw ArchLinux on it. The trackpad is worse, and battery life isn’t quite as good (I feel like I can optimize this, but haven’t had the chance yet), but it’s such a capable machine. I feel quite happy with it.
It took some work, but I convinced my employer to spring for a Darter Pro. I'm pretty happy with it. My previous laptop was a 2016 Dell XPS 13. I've found the larger screen on my Darter to be a lot easier to work on. Though, I do spend most of my time docked with multiple monitors.
My only real complaint is that when the fan ramps up, it is really loud. Loud enough to distract from meetings.... I haven't dug into the different tools for fan control much yet, but if anyone from System76 sees this, it'd be awesome if you implemented a nice ui for that.
I own a pinebook. It's a fun little machine, but if you need anything other than light web browsing (without javascript) and basic text editing it's insufficient. It's also based on an Allwinner SoC that only has ok Linux support: https://linux-sunxi.org/Main_Page.
Also, the keyboard is cramped and has an odd layout.
I wish their shipping costs to Germany wouldn’t be that expensive. Hardware + tax + shipping costs is just way too expensive. I wanted to buy an Oryx Pro recently, but had to go for another model (non System76) because of this.
Worst company to buy a Linux laptop from. I attempted to purchase a laptop from them in the past and got hit with crazy duties even though the wording on the site made it appear that there were none.
Simply better to buy a certified Dell laptop such as:
Latitude 7490 or Latitude 7480
I had the same experience with Darter Pro. Also the laptop's touchpad wasn't working properly from the beginning. When I contacted them, they kept asking me to try a lot of things on my own. I tried them for a while. I am developer, I like trying to fix things on my own upto certain extent. But when I pay crazy amount for something to someone, I expect them to fix it.
Also the display stopped working after a week and they blamed me for cracking the screen, even though I kept the laptop in a bag all the time.
The support was bad too. I would get response from different person on same support request for every new message. It bothered me because it looked like the new person who replied next time had no idea about the history of the support request.
Is the value in the custom distro that's well tested with the shipped hardware, do we think? i.e. If I want a laptop to put <something else> on, might I as well have a ThinkPad/Dell XPS/Purism Librem?
I just don't particularly like the look of the chassis, and I'm sure there's nowhere I can see them in person to check. It's a shame that Macbooks essentially don't work with Linux any more: https://github.com/Dunedan/mbp-2016-linux (yes there are workarounds and maybe it doesn't all matter - but needing a WiFi dongle is a bit of show stopper).
I love this concept and I love that it is proliferating. Purism offers what I'd consider to be more attractive hardware, but that's very subjective. As of Kubuntu 19.10, I actually consider Linux to be the best operating system for a laptop.I look forward for 20.04 and a few years of near total disregard for updates.
I want to be an AMD fanboy! I want (at least) 16 cores, 32 threads, a fully open source graphics stack, Wayland, flicker free boot, and open source firmware as described here. As it is, I just had to go with Intel/NVidia because it's more seamless. Even though I'm not really using the NVidia GPU, I do have it available if I want to work with Tensorflow etc. Ultimately, for me it is a question of stability but I hope that these systems can really close the gap.
I want something like this System76 machine with very good support for encrypted ZFS right out of the box. I don't know if that would entail LUKS or ZFS encryption, but I want it to work. I want a USB key that actually serves as a key and allows me to boot or otherwise unlock the system. Again, I'd prefer this to be a fully open source AMD/ATI system based on Kubuntu. With ZFS, bpftrace, and Docker... this is what Solaris wanted to be when it grew up.
I'm not sure how big the market for this would be, but I'd pay good American money if anyone catered to it. Right now I'm using a Dell G3 Intel/Nvidia laptop which, in fairness, is obscenely fast.
Looks fantastic ! Overall a better deal than thinkpad, but would like to have the option for a second battery instead of second disk and a joyclit too if that's possible
[+] [-] jackpot51|6 years ago|reply
Let me know if you have any questions. The source for this can be found here:
https://github.com/system76/firmware-open
There are instructions there for building and testing the firmware in QEMU, you do not need to have our hardware to try it out.
[+] [-] tpearson-raptor|6 years ago|reply
How are you claiming open source firmware when your hardware requires signed, closed source binaries to even begin to boot? I refer specifically to the Intel Management Engine, which incidentally is why we gave up on x86 many years ago.
How did you solve the GPU closed, signed firmware problem for discrete GPUs? How about the WiFi card firmware?
I understand your decision to try to keep compatibility with games and Windows, but the result is only partly open source, and that is not what these headlines read.
I know we would be interested in assisting System76 (or other prebuilt system OEMs) to start offering POWER products as true open source, owner controlled alternatives to Intel and AMD. For instance, we currently manufacture and sell mainboards that would be a perfect fit for your existing Thelio cases, that work very well with (optional) powerful AMD GPUs -- there's also a 2D HDMI graphics option for true blob-free operation. All you need to do is qualify our mainboard in your devices, and offer software support -- it's a very low risk investment all things considered but would allow System76 to sell truly open source systems vs. partly closed ones.
Is there some possible room for collaboration here? The GPU, WiFi, etc. firmware questions are honest questions -- the firmware is potential issue, and the more OEMs/ODMs that work this problem simultaneously in collaboration the higher the chance of a solution being found that will allow even those devices to be freed up and made secure.
[+] [-] Iv|6 years ago|reply
Kudos to you!
[+] [-] jdright|6 years ago|reply
Also, with the price difference between the two it would be a more interesting hardware using this difference to acquire more RAM.
[+] [-] equalunique|6 years ago|reply
[0] https://github.com/redox-os/redox/graphs/contributors
[+] [-] dorfsmay|6 years ago|reply
Have you thought of addressing the market of people wanting a small (12 to 13 inch), robuste, laptops with trackpoint and no arbitrary memory limitation?
Lenovo has abandoned that market, and there's enough demand for people to create and sell kits for it. Could System 76 fill that gap?
[+] [-] lovehashbrowns|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kop316|6 years ago|reply
With only needing the Intel FSP, does that disable the Intel ME? And what other peripherals need closed firmware?
You also are not here:
https://www.coreboot.org/users.html
I say that because I have been in the market for a laptop, and I am looking for a free(dom) based laptop. I looked there and it led me down the path of a Purism laptop.
Have you also thought about adding some sort of hardware kill switches for Cameras/microphones/Radios?
[+] [-] akincisor|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gray_-_wolf|6 years ago|reply
As few people already pointed out, it would be nice to see some laptops with AMD CPUs.
For me personally, I would also love having trackpoint, have it on my thinkpad and did not use touchpad once.
[+] [-] rhizome|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] 7thaccount|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] davidw|6 years ago|reply
Thanks for your work!
[+] [-] jokoon|6 years ago|reply
How difficult was it for those companies to provide components that were OSS friendly? What is the main hurdle? Does it increase costs? Did you experience fightback from providers to make this project happen?
[+] [-] otter-in-a-suit|6 years ago|reply
However, on a semi-related note, will the issue where a firmware update on dual-boot system (popOS and Windows) consistently breaks systemd-boot, forcing a start into Windows, be addressed in the foreseeable future?
I've recently updated the documentation [1], as this issue plagued me multiple times.
[1] https://github.com/system76/docs/pull/205
[+] [-] dochtman|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Clubber|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] enriquto|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kcolford|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] vasili111|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] somatic|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] awinter-py|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] albertzeyer|6 years ago|reply
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21170765
In that discussion, several other good Linux notebooks were also discussed, including System 76. But it was reported there that the quality is quite bad:
> but the quality is reportedly bad (flaky hardware, too-fast power drain, reflash bios to toggle discrete graphics (!), slow support) https://www.linuxjournal.com/content/review-system76-oryx-pr...
> Mine is in the System 76 repair shop right now for the third time. Extremely unsatisfied with Oryx Pro materials and build quality. Oh it's back for the third time because when they replaced the top case last time, they installed a defective touch pad. Never again.
I wonder if that has been improved, as I'm really interested in a high quality Linux notebook.
[+] [-] dhanvanthri|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ProAm|6 years ago|reply
Almost every post on HN is for marketing. The net positive System76 is doing outweighs the negatives we have in today's software world. Be happy it's not BIOS-as-a-service that requires a subscription and is funded by a VC.
[+] [-] rapsey|6 years ago|reply
They have no responsibility of the sort.
[+] [-] api|6 years ago|reply
Naming is hard, but almost anything would be better. If in doubt I'd go with something bland like "System76 Linux."
I bring this up because for the past 20 years closed silos and locked down platforms have won almost entirely on the basis of UI/UX and polish. System76's hardware looks good at first glance, but everything else matters too. An OS name that says "this is a toy and will be useless for real work" is a real problem for wider adoption. Even worse the name tends to transfer via mental association onto the hardware, conveying the idea that this laptop will fall apart.
[+] [-] vannevar|6 years ago|reply
https://liliputing.com/2019/10/system76-launches-two-linux-w...
[+] [-] awinter-py|6 years ago|reply
and drivers are an important frontier of this. SO TIRED of downloading blobs to have wifi on linux. AFAIK there isn't even a usb wifi dongle that has an open source wifi driver, much less a commercial wifi chipset.
even companies that are in theory dedicated to quality are teetering on the edge of using software to enable planned obsolescence -- and also releasing unpleasant product changes in line with security updates.
coreboot particularly interesting because of the TOTP work people have been doing on the TPM for tamper detection.
[+] [-] SirensOfTitan|6 years ago|reply
I ended up going with a Lenovo x1 carbón extreme and threw ArchLinux on it. The trackpad is worse, and battery life isn’t quite as good (I feel like I can optimize this, but haven’t had the chance yet), but it’s such a capable machine. I feel quite happy with it.
[+] [-] jerrac|6 years ago|reply
My only real complaint is that when the fan ramps up, it is really loud. Loud enough to distract from meetings.... I haven't dug into the different tools for fan control much yet, but if anyone from System76 sees this, it'd be awesome if you implemented a nice ui for that.
[+] [-] Porthos9K|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rsync|6 years ago|reply
Should I be looking at the Pinebook 11" ?
[+] [-] Ardon|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] timidiceball|6 years ago|reply
Otherwise consider a Surface Laptop! The 3:2 aspect ratio is surprisingly sticky
[+] [-] sh-run|6 years ago|reply
Also, the keyboard is cramped and has an odd layout.
[+] [-] isantop|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jdhawk|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tsp|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ckdarby|6 years ago|reply
Simply better to buy a certified Dell laptop such as: Latitude 7490 or Latitude 7480
[+] [-] avellable|6 years ago|reply
Also the display stopped working after a week and they blamed me for cracking the screen, even though I kept the laptop in a bag all the time.
The support was bad too. I would get response from different person on same support request for every new message. It bothered me because it looked like the new person who replied next time had no idea about the history of the support request.
[+] [-] swebs|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] OJFord|6 years ago|reply
I just don't particularly like the look of the chassis, and I'm sure there's nowhere I can see them in person to check. It's a shame that Macbooks essentially don't work with Linux any more: https://github.com/Dunedan/mbp-2016-linux (yes there are workarounds and maybe it doesn't all matter - but needing a WiFi dongle is a bit of show stopper).
[+] [-] npx|6 years ago|reply
I want to be an AMD fanboy! I want (at least) 16 cores, 32 threads, a fully open source graphics stack, Wayland, flicker free boot, and open source firmware as described here. As it is, I just had to go with Intel/NVidia because it's more seamless. Even though I'm not really using the NVidia GPU, I do have it available if I want to work with Tensorflow etc. Ultimately, for me it is a question of stability but I hope that these systems can really close the gap.
I want something like this System76 machine with very good support for encrypted ZFS right out of the box. I don't know if that would entail LUKS or ZFS encryption, but I want it to work. I want a USB key that actually serves as a key and allows me to boot or otherwise unlock the system. Again, I'd prefer this to be a fully open source AMD/ATI system based on Kubuntu. With ZFS, bpftrace, and Docker... this is what Solaris wanted to be when it grew up.
I'm not sure how big the market for this would be, but I'd pay good American money if anyone catered to it. Right now I'm using a Dell G3 Intel/Nvidia laptop which, in fairness, is obscenely fast.
[+] [-] 1337shadow|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] 2wrist|6 years ago|reply
I long for the future of open RISC-V/OpenPOWER/Arm/MIPS coherent platforms.
Thanks for your efforts and best of luck.
[+] [-] usebunsby|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] 3f2d8ccbd53b|6 years ago|reply
I would REALLY like to see a modern coreboot laptop with a 3k (or 4k) "retina"-type display. System76, if you can make this happen, you have a sale!
[+] [-] unknown|6 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] tomrod|6 years ago|reply