First, I really didn't like the tone of the card company. They're selling someone else's work (whether legal or not), and then were condescending toward the person who made it. They say they're just trying to honor Banksy, but they paint him as an out-of-touch rich asshole.
Second, it's hard to know for sure, but I think this analysis misses the bigger point... I feel like opening a small shop that isn't real is very Banksy-esque, and likely is more of a statement on trademark than him actually trying to enforce a trademark. This is clearly just an exhibit + marketing. (It's a glass storefront, after all)
The whole situation is interesting at the very least.
The only comment I have is that I have to fault the article for making a lot of assumptions and leaps to conclusions on Banksy’s intentions, it sort of unilaterally declares that Banksy is selling out and cheating the system.
But what they want is far simpler: they don’t want other people claiming they’re Banksy, and they want to remain anonymous.
The article gets upset at Banksy as a corporate sellout as if they opened up a line of art pieces for sale at Walmart or Target. What Banksy did is more akin to opening up a UPS Store mailbox in order to have an address on file.
> they don’t want other people claiming they’re Banksy
No. This is obviously not the problem. Nobody at that greeting card company was claiming to be Banksy. The problem is that they are making money off of a Banksy work of art without his permission.
His behavior is quite clearly protecting his financial interests in his own work. That’s actually the only explanation that makes sense. The other option being that he’s opposed to anybody making money off his art, including himself. Nothing he has done in the last year has indicated the latter to be the case.
>> Having once claimed that copyright is for losers, Banksy has been ramping up his legal position for several months now. At the end of 2018, the artist’s handling service Pest Control took action against an Italian company that organised an exhibition, The Art of Banksy—A Visual Protest, for Milan’s Mudec Museum.
>> In February this year, the judge ruled in favour of Banksy’s request for all merchandise bearing his name to be removed from the museum’s shop, but promotional materials using his name were allowed to remain. The judge noted that the documents filed in the proceedings showed a limited use of the Banksy brand.
Banksy should have GPL'd his works. Seriously.
Everyone creating artwork derived from Banksy's works, including merchandise articles, would be required to provide the sources.
So if for example an Italian Museum decides to sell flower bomber T-shirts everyone could just use the design files to order at CafePress. This would promote the unrestricted dissemination of his works while putting natural limits on the commercialization by others.
I can kind of get this. He wants to remain anonymous but he doesn't want to see his work on every shonky piece of merch in every dollar store in town.
Both of those seem like reasonable desires. Nobody's disputing that he's the creator after all. It looks to me like copyright law is broken, but I guess parliament won't be rushing to fix it to plug gaps for edge cases involving anonymous street artists.
What surprises me more is that there isn't a wave of faux Banksys flooding the market - sure the artist has a style but it's not absolutely unreproducible. And if, in legal terms, nobody's Banksy doesn't that mean that we're all Banksy?
How is banksy going to protect their work if they cannot even prove they made it? I don't even believe all the 'banksy' originals over the years came from one person, it's more likely a group.
Honestly it's frustrating to watch an anonymous entity decorate the city while still expecting people not to use their work. The way banksy has established themself as a figure would indicate they want the art to be free and open for all to use. You cannot have your cake and eat it too, which is to say you cannot be anonymous and trademark your artwork.
Also if he doesn't challenge this small boutique business then he can't challenge Hallmark if)when they do the same thing. These guys out themselves in the firing line by trying to make money off his work, he doesn't want them to. His public graffiti work is for public consumption. This is a private company selling copies of his work for private consumption. Yes he is using copyright/trademark law which he has protested against but until the law changes he is forced to do it. Trust me if the card company wins then hallmark or someone similar will decimate their (boutique card) business by pumping out tons of similar stuff at low cost.
He's a performer in a music group that has sold millions of records and performed live all over the world. If he wanted to be anonymous, I suggest he's chosen the wrong career.
The article implicitly suggests Banksy is making money off his artwork with word choice like "won't let anyone else profit off it". The idea being to paint him as a sellout and a hypocrite.
But is it true? By everyone's admission he isn't selling shoddy kitsch like post cards and fridge magnets. All that's left to sell is the original works, and to the best of my knowledge the people who can actually sell those are usually the owner of the wall itself. He pulled that stunt with the Sotheby's auction. Did he actually get any money after that self destructed? Does anyone anywhere actually have an estimate on how profitable the Banksy operation is?
I feel the same way. Just because he's not commercializing up to the Holy shouldn't mean that he doesn't get a say in wether his work gets cheapened like this.
And as for the "we're making his work more accessible" argument from the gift card sellers - isn't that what every pirate ever has said to justify profiteering from other people's creation?
The website attached to the store is astoundingly corporate. For example, it contains a long and clearly custom-written TOS with classic gems like this: "Our site must not be framed on any other site, nor may you create a link to any part of our site other than the home page."
The potential non-copyrightability of graffiti I understand but I am failing to understand the anonymous ownership issue. Why he cannot transfer the copyright for the work to a corporation which enforces the copyright? -- it isn't like he needs to register the work before transferring it to the company, the berne convention assures that.
He can’t transfer it because that (in general) must be done in writing and with a signature. Any target of copyright litigation will demand to know who is purported to have assigned copyright, so just putting “Banksy” there won’t hold up. Those are the evidentiary issues.
Banksy pretty much ripped off Blek Le Rat — so much of his work is completely derivative. Plus you could argue he did much of his work in the public domain. If I graffiti an image in a public place, haven’t I kind of given away copyright to it?
Given Banksy’s anti-capitalist, semi-anarchist stance, and utilization of public property for his own fame, I can’t think of any better means for him to honor himself than to allow people to rip off his work freely.
I certainly can see the case against those who misappropriate bad work to his name — artistic integrity is important. There is also nothing wrong with him wanting to make money. But I see no moral problem with selling knick knacks with banksy imagery on it.
FWIW I love his art and his moral stance. Just can’t have your cake and eat it.
He wants to have his cake and eat it. He can copyright his work to have it protected, but won't because that would mean you know the name of the person who makes it. So instead he abuses the law by claiming a trademark - which he isn't entitled to under the law. So now someone has challenged his trademark and because Banksy isn't actually some anti-establishment rebel, he's using fancy lawyers and public pressure to get his way despite not actually being right as a matter of law.
The closest that UK copyright law gets is that there's an exemption for photographs of "sculptures, models for buildings and works of artistic craftsmanship, if permanently situated in a public place or in premises open to the public". (See section 62 at https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/... .)
But Banksy's pictures are just straight "artistic works". There's no need to class them as "works of artistic craftsmanship" and I don't believe any court would do so.
The infringers are either deliberately misreading copyright law or simply ignorant of it. I suspect the latter.
If he painted something without permission on someone else's wall (for example), I don't have a problem with the owner of the wall trying to profit from it.
And if he painted something without permission on a wall owned by a Government, funded by "The People", I don't have a problem with anyone trying to profit from it via photographic reproduction (modulo local copyright / ownership laws of the country the wall is in).
Warhol made art from someone else's Campbell Soup cans and everyone loved that....
Pretty cheesy. You can’t use trademark law like this which clearly is the reason they didn’t try this against a company that would have the resources to handle a baseless lawsuit.
I have always been suspicious at Banksy, it always seemed to me like corporate plot to generate hype. This article really aligns with my intuition. I am very surprised of all the responses here. I expected that this of all places will look through the fake.
Tldr; this article seems highly biased and tries to paint Banksy as an evil corporate mastermind who tries to damage a small home business by ways of shady litigation - while the issue at hand looks more to be that said business tries to make profit off pictures he won't print as merch and prohibiting this is complicated legally without disclosing one's true name.
The article plays on sympathy for the "poor little home run shop" versus Banksy ressorting to "evil lawyers". Feel like it's grossly misrepresenting the matter on purpose.
But which one has a big corporation? The article clearly and seemingly correctly points out that Banksy is a much bigger corporation and that corporation is lying through its teeth about what is happening.
[+] [-] gkoberger|6 years ago|reply
First, I really didn't like the tone of the card company. They're selling someone else's work (whether legal or not), and then were condescending toward the person who made it. They say they're just trying to honor Banksy, but they paint him as an out-of-touch rich asshole.
Second, it's hard to know for sure, but I think this analysis misses the bigger point... I feel like opening a small shop that isn't real is very Banksy-esque, and likely is more of a statement on trademark than him actually trying to enforce a trademark. This is clearly just an exhibit + marketing. (It's a glass storefront, after all)
[+] [-] jtbayly|6 years ago|reply
That’s because that’s how he has treated them. Lying about them and what they are doing is nasty. That’s what Banksy did.
[+] [-] dangus|6 years ago|reply
The only comment I have is that I have to fault the article for making a lot of assumptions and leaps to conclusions on Banksy’s intentions, it sort of unilaterally declares that Banksy is selling out and cheating the system.
But what they want is far simpler: they don’t want other people claiming they’re Banksy, and they want to remain anonymous.
The article gets upset at Banksy as a corporate sellout as if they opened up a line of art pieces for sale at Walmart or Target. What Banksy did is more akin to opening up a UPS Store mailbox in order to have an address on file.
[+] [-] jtbayly|6 years ago|reply
No. This is obviously not the problem. Nobody at that greeting card company was claiming to be Banksy. The problem is that they are making money off of a Banksy work of art without his permission.
His behavior is quite clearly protecting his financial interests in his own work. That’s actually the only explanation that makes sense. The other option being that he’s opposed to anybody making money off his art, including himself. Nothing he has done in the last year has indicated the latter to be the case.
[+] [-] tomxor|6 years ago|reply
Sounds like a perfect case for public key cryptography, although it doesn't help with duplicates - but duplicates help his work sell anyway.
Would be interesting to see how it could be applied to something visual that is reproduced in non-pixel perfect ways.
[+] [-] weinzierl|6 years ago|reply
>> In February this year, the judge ruled in favour of Banksy’s request for all merchandise bearing his name to be removed from the museum’s shop, but promotional materials using his name were allowed to remain. The judge noted that the documents filed in the proceedings showed a limited use of the Banksy brand.
Banksy should have GPL'd his works. Seriously.
Everyone creating artwork derived from Banksy's works, including merchandise articles, would be required to provide the sources. So if for example an Italian Museum decides to sell flower bomber T-shirts everyone could just use the design files to order at CafePress. This would promote the unrestricted dissemination of his works while putting natural limits on the commercialization by others.
[+] [-] aritmo|6 years ago|reply
But in either case, both CC and GPL are based on copyright, therefore cannot use.
[+] [-] mkj|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] cookie_monsta|6 years ago|reply
Both of those seem like reasonable desires. Nobody's disputing that he's the creator after all. It looks to me like copyright law is broken, but I guess parliament won't be rushing to fix it to plug gaps for edge cases involving anonymous street artists.
What surprises me more is that there isn't a wave of faux Banksys flooding the market - sure the artist has a style but it's not absolutely unreproducible. And if, in legal terms, nobody's Banksy doesn't that mean that we're all Banksy?
[+] [-] _4ziu|6 years ago|reply
Honestly it's frustrating to watch an anonymous entity decorate the city while still expecting people not to use their work. The way banksy has established themself as a figure would indicate they want the art to be free and open for all to use. You cannot have your cake and eat it too, which is to say you cannot be anonymous and trademark your artwork.
[+] [-] bufferout|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mehwoot|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] celticninja|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|6 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] Traster|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] carlmr|6 years ago|reply
Most certainly not, I can barely draw a stick figure.
[+] [-] ummwhat|6 years ago|reply
But is it true? By everyone's admission he isn't selling shoddy kitsch like post cards and fridge magnets. All that's left to sell is the original works, and to the best of my knowledge the people who can actually sell those are usually the owner of the wall itself. He pulled that stunt with the Sotheby's auction. Did he actually get any money after that self destructed? Does anyone anywhere actually have an estimate on how profitable the Banksy operation is?
[+] [-] mnem|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] cookie_monsta|6 years ago|reply
And as for the "we're making his work more accessible" argument from the gift card sellers - isn't that what every pirate ever has said to justify profiteering from other people's creation?
[+] [-] TomMckenny|6 years ago|reply
Indeed it's a strange world if he, on principle, refuses to profit by his work but other people must be allowed to.
[+] [-] makomk|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unilynx|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nullc|6 years ago|reply
The potential non-copyrightability of graffiti I understand but I am failing to understand the anonymous ownership issue. Why he cannot transfer the copyright for the work to a corporation which enforces the copyright? -- it isn't like he needs to register the work before transferring it to the company, the berne convention assures that.
[+] [-] cormacrelf|6 years ago|reply
He can’t transfer it because that (in general) must be done in writing and with a signature. Any target of copyright litigation will demand to know who is purported to have assigned copyright, so just putting “Banksy” there won’t hold up. Those are the evidentiary issues.
[+] [-] droithomme|6 years ago|reply
In the US copyrightable works can be copyrighted by an anonymous or pseudononymous creator. There's even a box to check if the creator is anonymous.
https://www.copyright.gov/eco/help-author.html
Perhaps in the EU anonymous works can not be copyrighted?
[+] [-] stanfordkid|6 years ago|reply
Given Banksy’s anti-capitalist, semi-anarchist stance, and utilization of public property for his own fame, I can’t think of any better means for him to honor himself than to allow people to rip off his work freely.
I certainly can see the case against those who misappropriate bad work to his name — artistic integrity is important. There is also nothing wrong with him wanting to make money. But I see no moral problem with selling knick knacks with banksy imagery on it.
FWIW I love his art and his moral stance. Just can’t have your cake and eat it.
[+] [-] bufferoverflow|6 years ago|reply
Is that how the copyright works in the UK??? Like I can photograph anybody's art and just sell prints? That doesn't sound right.
[+] [-] Traster|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Doctor_Fegg|6 years ago|reply
The closest that UK copyright law gets is that there's an exemption for photographs of "sculptures, models for buildings and works of artistic craftsmanship, if permanently situated in a public place or in premises open to the public". (See section 62 at https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/... .)
But Banksy's pictures are just straight "artistic works". There's no need to class them as "works of artistic craftsmanship" and I don't believe any court would do so.
The infringers are either deliberately misreading copyright law or simply ignorant of it. I suspect the latter.
[+] [-] fortran77|6 years ago|reply
And if he painted something without permission on a wall owned by a Government, funded by "The People", I don't have a problem with anyone trying to profit from it via photographic reproduction (modulo local copyright / ownership laws of the country the wall is in).
Warhol made art from someone else's Campbell Soup cans and everyone loved that....
[+] [-] cookie_monsta|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Spivak|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tinus_hn|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] BenGosub|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] minermansion|6 years ago|reply
Hacking a Banksy with Bash and Varanid: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21368691
[+] [-] rossdavidh|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] noja|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gohbgl|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] oh_sigh|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|6 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] krsdcbl|6 years ago|reply
The article plays on sympathy for the "poor little home run shop" versus Banksy ressorting to "evil lawyers". Feel like it's grossly misrepresenting the matter on purpose.
[+] [-] jtbayly|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] cookie_monsta|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sbhn|6 years ago|reply
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