[blaesus]

I am Chinese living in China. Nationalism is on the rise lately in China, not just for domestic reasons, but also as an reaction to nationalistic moves from "the West" like this one. It's a recurring theme, not just in governmental propaganda, but also in daily conversations, that "the West" would talk about fairness and justice then commit blatant discrimination and double standards.

As a founder of a tech company based in China, I benefit from US companies blocking Chinese (and Russian) engineers; still I am saddened by this. I hope they could come up with more intelligent policies to protect their OPSEC.

[computerex]

Nationalism has always been high in China ever since the CCP took control. Not being a nationalist would be a good way to suddenly disappear off the face of the Earth.

China has always had double standards. They make it hell for U.S companies to do business there. The only thing that has changed is that the U.S has started pushing back somewhat as of late, but things are still currently in favor of China.

When China makes draconian laws like this: https://www.chinalawblog.com/2019/09/chinas-new-cybersecurit...

Is it really a surprise that companies that care about their customer privacy would be hesitant in dealing with China? Is it inconceivable that data breaches and unauthorized access of data/systems could happen through Chinese employees? These are some of the things you have to think about.

Maybe the Chinese government should look at the year (2019) and realize that personal liberties, sovereignty and privacy are important to the "west". If China is going to disrespect our important values, than what you are seeing in this Gitlab discussion is bound to take place for companies that are sensitive about protecting their customers.

[_wmhc]

>realize that personal liberties, sovereignty and privacy are important to the "west"

I think that Snowden showed us that this is not actually true. Things like National Security letters and the PATRIOT act make the US to me, as a European, seem very hypocritical right now.

[odiroot]

> Nationalism has always been high in China ever since the CCP took control.

Or since the Boxer Rebellion.

Or since before the Opium Wars. And probably even much earlier.

[whoevercares]

Assuming you aren’t native Chinese or don’t have lots of friends in China, you don’t seem to understand what the parent said about nationalism rises. No China’s nationalism WAS NOT this high before, (the parade etc) you saw before is organized and it’s actually quite small considering the scale of China. Common people were normally cynical and only act patriotic at occasions where they really have to. Things are freaking different now with certified news from the US regarding trade war and the fact Trump can’t win the trade war. Normal people this time really become nationalist

[hungryhobo]

Complains about double standards in western media,points to double standards in Chinese media.

Whataboutism?

[DiogenesKynikos]

> They make it hell for U.S companies to do business there.

That's not evidenced by the massive presence of US companies in China. American companies do vastly more business in China than vice versa. Whenever I see these sorts of claims, I ask what specific restrictions or hurdles are being discussed.

[rqs]

> China has always had double standards. They make it hell for U.S companies to do business there

Here we go. "CCP is bad and China is bad, so every Chinese is bad". This kind of logic is not very healthy, it just like saying "Google(Or insert any company here) is bad, let's punish their employees", it will hurt those employees (way) more than it hurt Google.

Put the story into context, if Chinese engineers cannot find a job oversea, they will probably go back to China and contribute to a Chinese company that operate under CCP's rule. Will that be a good thing for you eventually?

I bet CCP is also counting on the rising nationalism in the US as well, to drive Chinese engineers back home with their valuable knowledge.

[mb_72]

Curious as the way I see it it's very often China who is the 'initiator', eg internment of Muslims, stealing of territory in South China sea, debt-trap diplomacy, and so forth. Presuming that you are aware of these occurrences, do you agree with your government's positions and actions, and - if not - what actions, if any, do you take to make it clear your opposition?

The Chinese government is, IMO, massively over sensitive to any outside commentary or criticism, eg: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-10-31/china-warns-australia...

[dang]

You took this thread way into flamewar. Please don't do that again. We don't want any flamewars here, and certainly not nationalistic ones.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

[arczyx]

>Presuming that you are aware of these occurrences, do you agree with your government's positions and actions, and - if not - what actions, if any, do you take to make it clear your opposition?

I'm not from China and I disagree with the action of the China's government you listed above. However I wonder why this kind of opinion (aka the Chinese should be responsible for their government) is not commonly held against the USA?

The USA had invaded countries based on false pretext, toppling legitimate governments, and supported dictators all around the world. Why then, this "the Chinese are responsible for their authoritarian government" argument was not commonly held against the citizens of the USA, who supposedly live in democracy and therefore better equipped to actually change the situation?

[Nasrudith]

Really aggressors project and victim blame as standard practice to justify themselves and their travesties. This goes back to Rome's war with Carthage and probably well before then.

Nationalists of all stripes get very angry when you point out their nation's crimes. Poland made outright illegal to point out that there were in fact Polish collaborators in the Holocaust for instance. It is true that the country was overwhelmingly the victim and Nazis were responsible but cutting off this self reflection only looks sinister. When 'face' culture is involved it seems to be further. Numerous sister city relationships were ended unilaterally by Japan for acknowledging the "comfort women" - ironically losing far more face internationally. Add in outright totalitarianism under a dictator and criticism is seen as an outright threat.

[duguxu]

Some prequel of the "initiation" https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:%E6%96%B0%E7%96%86%E7...

[Quarrelsome]

why do you think Trump likes to talk about China?

He's more likely to talk about camps in China than he is about the homeless in Los Angeles. One is a problem completely out of his control, another is one he could easily mitigate. You wonder why that is?

[EastToWest]

How do you expect a Chinese to respond to this kind of "Have you stopped beating your wife" questions?

Whether some of the view points are valid in the first place (at least the second or third one) is deeply contested to Chinese. If you're just parroting Western media view points without showing at least some understanding of Chinese view points, you will likely not get any genuine answers.

[netok]

As a chinese, this kind of comment makes me hate the west even more. I have no control over my government. Zero. 0. Do you understand the concept of 0? Thats the amount of influence I have over any government matter. And you people being racist pos because there is nothing I can do about my gov. Wtf do you want?

[president]

You say that nationalism in China is a reaction to nationalism in the US when it is actually the other way around. After many decades of realizing China has engaged in unfair trade practices, IP theft, and predatory behavior despite maintaining innocence, US finally has to react. If someone keeps punching you and spitting in your face, how do you think they'll react eventually?

I don't expect Chinese natives to understand the full story because they aren't exposed to all the wrongdoings of their government and even if they are, they think it's justified because they selfishly believe in supremacy of their own race/country. Even your comment suggests that you have been led to believe US is the "bully". I have heard all the arguments from the Chinese about 100 years of humiliation, Opium wars, and how US did X, Y, and Z "bad things" without ever pausing and stepping out of their own shoes to look at their actions in an unbiased way or learning the truth of the facts. I guess you can't have a meaningful argument when your only sources are your government textbooks and fire-walled internet. Think about that.

[bart_spoon]

Do you have any suggestions as to what Western companies can do to prevent intellectual property theft and the Chinese government trying to pressure them into censoring non-Chinese citizens?

Because short of some effective alternatives, the Chinese government isn't really giving the West much of a choice here.

[_iyig]

>It's a recurring theme, not just in governmental propaganda, but also in daily conversations, that "the West" would talk about fairness and justice then commit blatant discrimination and double standards.

Do you believe this move is a double standard? If America and the E.U. mirrored Chinese rules and practices for corporate governance, foreign investment, and political involvement in private enterprise, how would that look?

[jka]

Agreed; it's unfortunate to see companies considering acting this way. In this case it seems like GitLab are doing this for a single customer, so I'd bet it's caused by a desire to meet sales quotas and/or financial goals, rather than fundamental company strategy or policy.

Using that lens, this is a short-term financially-motivated attempt to change company hiring/access policy, which in turn provides justification for the anti-Western sentiment you mention.

In my opinion this is a restriction that should be the customer's responsibility to enact, if they choose to - which means that GitLab should pause and build access controls which allow the customer to configure (and ideally audit) who at GitLab has access.

What is excellent and commendable is that GitLab is able to have much of this discussion in the open; because at many other organizations, this would all have happened behind closed doors.

[d1ffuz0r]

Those people are completely brainwashed https://gitlab.com/gitlab-com/www-gitlab-com/issues/5555#not...

[proverbialbunny]

I've noticed nationalism rising in China lately too.

It's easy to pay attention to difference between people and culture, as noticing difference is what we instinctively do, but it is also beneficial to notice our similarities too. We're all people. Besides minor cultural differences, we all respond in similar ways to the situations we are given throughout life.

>As a founder of a tech company based in China, I benefit from US companies blocking Chinese (and Russian) engineers; still I am saddened by this. I hope they could come up with more intelligent policies to protect their OPSEC.

btw, is it legal to read HN in China?

[eznoonze]

As a founder of a tech company based in China, you benefit from China blocking US (and the western world's) companies; You should be saddened by this. Can you please write a letter to Chairman Xi telling him he is wrong?

[lonelappde]

The article/policy isn't about blocking Chinese/Russian people, it's blocking people in China and Russia, or equivalenly blocking gitlab corporate from spreading into China/Russia.