Can I use this without having a Google or Apple account? I guess the answer is no. It's crazy that we are allowing these duopolies to be the arbiters of so many critical functions.
Arguments like this are the strongest for forced regulation and split up IMHO.
And - just to underline this point - drivers license is the de-facto Australian ID card.
I can't think of an actual complaint against embedding US companies into what is in practice an important part of NSWs local governance; we might already do that credit and finance to some degree. But it just looks like another little step at creating a delicate system with single points of failure and unreasonably influential power-brokers.
I have had one of these for years in South Australia (app store release data may 2017). Our car rego is all digital as well which used to cause confusion interstate as we don't have rego stickers. I don't adopt a lot of digital technology like social media because I think it is of dubious value with potential risks but nfc payments and a digital licence lets me travel with just my phone which suits me really well. I hate carrying a wallet.
One potential issue with having this on your phone is that you are unlocking your phone and handing it to the police which could be a problem for some people. Though people can still carry a card.
> One potential issue with having this on your phone is that you are unlocking your phone and handing it to the police which could be a problem for some people. Though people can still carry a card.
NSW resident. If I was driving I'd carry my physical license which I'd hand to police. If I was heading out by foot to a pub, bar, bottle shop or tobacconist I'd use my phone because that's how I pay for things. I'm not young looking but if I were, at least the phone would save me carrying a wallet.
Opal, NSW's public transport payment system, works directly with contactless payment i.e. credit cards, debit cards, phones (all phones - hi Myki!), smart watches and, unsurprisingly, dedicated Opal cards. Making licenses app-based opens up the option to leave home without anything but your phone.
In NSW you are not required to hand it over to police.
From the site:
"You don’t need to hand over your device to the licence checker. If a licence checker is struggling to view your digital driver licence, adjust the tilt of your device or turn up your brightness settings. "
Although as others have posted, apparently the police are not allowed to touch the phone, but people are used to handing over the current plastic license so would likely hand over their phone unless instructed otherwise.
It was news to me that you can lock android and iOS to a certain app so that would be a good thing to do if your license is requested.
And for some strange reason, the ability to pair with Bluetooth devices. Which I have no idea why it exists, I can't find a single service that the app has access to which would require that feature.
The app itself recommends only showing the officer your screen, and not handing your phone over. As for Android, you can also pin the app before handing it over, if you so wish to. Pinning is a feature whereby the foreground app is the only app that can be interacted with until the next time you unlock the phone. All notifications are also hidden.
From the article "Avoid handling a customer’s phone. If you have difficulty viewing or scanning, ask the customer to adjust the phone to make checking easier. "
There's an opportunity for mobile OSs to support this usecase with a "guest" account: lock the phone to a single app so you can hand it to a less trusted person. Also useful for toddlers gaming.
The last Android version had a weak guest mode; the current one does not seem to.
If you can, enable Screen Pinning in Android. I use it all the time for airlines that give me the option to use an app to present my boarding pass... to the TSA.
Some say that New Orleans is so far behind, that it's ahead. Definitely true. The information systems in SF all feel like they were built in 2010. I've had a digital ID (https://apps.apple.com/us/app/la-wallet/id1386930269) for over a year now and it's so much more convenient when I lose my actual ID -- about 4x/year. The LA wallet has a verification system that anyone can use to verify anyone else's ID. I was in SF for blockchain week last week and I misplaced by physical ID on the way to the airport. I wanted to see a friend of mine perform at a bar in Berkeley and they wanted a physical ID. I ended up eating tasty Nepalese food next door and met up with my friends after the show because there's no digital ID in California. Once I got back to New Orleans, no-one ever batted an eye when I showed them my digital ID. I'm hoping the next step is issuing a public/private key along with the ID. It would come in handy for so many blockchainy/dapp possibilities.
I might be less ecstatic if I had a car and got pulled over and asked to show my ID. I wouldn't be comfortable handing my unlocked phone over to the state. I trust the internal walls of the mobile walled gardens more than I trust a cop.
> It’s illegal to access your Digital Driver Licence when driving, including when stationary, unless you’re asked to do so by a police officer. Penalties apply.
"We made this thing you only need while driving, especially when stationary and stopped by the police, but it's illegal to do so unless specifically requested."
I wonder how this will be applied in reality. Will individuals stopped have to wait for the police to ask before readying their documentation without being cited in addition to whatever they were stopped for?
It might be a step towards the goals of the Face Verification Service project [0] of the Home Affairs office, which is a wide-reaching facial recognition service which seems to want to do things that aren't really possible with current technology.
Eventually these services can be integrated, or they might already be trialing integration silently.
> The Document Verification Service checks whether the personal information on an identity document matches the original
record. Importantly this includes verification of the date of birth on Australian passports, driver licences and birth certificates.
> The Face Verification Service complements the Document Verification Service by preventing the use of stolen as well as fake identity information.
I feel like I am pretty security conscious and thought the same thing at first. but realistically isn't all this just data the government already has on us?.
Non-rhetorical question: What's the point of this?
For many years it has been possible in many countries for a police officer to enter a vehicle's number plate and get details of the registered owner, including a photo, on the screen of their own device, one which they trust. If I'm driving a friend's car I could tell the police officer my name, the number plate of a vehicle that I am linked to or some other identifier and the officer could then look me up. Why should a driver need anything beyond a good enough memory to recite some kind of identifier?
Someone who can't remember their own name arguably shouldn't be driving.
I'm looking forward to the day when we won't need passports either. (I'm sure my great-grandchildren will find it much more convenient.)
Perhaps the point of this is that it lets you give someone else, not a police officer, temporary read-access to a subset of the data on the server. Is that it perhaps? That could be useful. For example, to a club bouncer I might choose to reveal my photo and the fact that I'm over 18 without giving away my date of birth and my address, which would be shown on my physical driving licence.
Potentially some interesting technical questions about how to stop people from using someone else's licence with the other person's collaboration: an older sibling's licence, for example.
I've tried this out so I can report the experience.
First, I can confirm the only permission requested is camera, and that's only when I first try to use the "scan a license" function. It seems like a Google Play bug that the play store allegedly shows legacy information if you click "permissions"[0] on the website, as these aren't reflected in the actual store.
Secondly, being able to press a button and get shown my current demerits is extremely useful. Last time I wanted to check this I spent a good two hours on hold on the phone.
My license expires in two weeks and this is the first I found out about it. Undoubtedly due to some bungle in the traditional system.
I can see why people are concerned, and it's not going to be accepted in clubs for a while as the scanners physically won't fit a phone.
(Having deployed those scanners a few years back, I'm frankly more concerned about their privacy situation than this app).
Yes, I like being able to see my licence expiry, demerit and rego expiry all on one place.
Our rego is all digital in SA and we don't have rego stickers. I have been getting text reminders for years but sometimes you just want to check when things expire without logging into a website and navigating through lots of layers.
I expect NSW is the same but our app also takes boat licences, heavy vehicle licences, occupational licences as well as vehicle reg. I get that it isn't for everyone but it is a convenience.
Here in the States, Delaware and other states have also been trying mobile driver's licenses. Alarmingly to me, it seems police officers might eventually be able to remotely access the driver's license information of a person with a mobile license when the officer is physically nearby the phone, though perhaps that is less bad than having to hand over and unlock the phone outright.
You can learn more about the Delaware experiment from the same places I did:
I can see digital imitations coming in 3,2,1... Starting by reversing and modifying the official app. The QR might not verify (assuming network connectivity), or it might be someone else, but will it be checked? Doubtful, because it only returns a name, not a photo.
It is disappointing this is an online-only system. There is a continuation of a number of privacy violating practices, such as giving your DOB and driver's licence number to bars/clubs/venue security (often run by criminals, esp OLMCs). It should only show 18+ and a photo.
NSW Govt will now know exactly who goes to which venue, in real time. Insane surveillance of the citizenry.
Can't wait to see what data is in the real QR codes. Almost sounds like a TOTP code and a user/device serial number. Malware that rips these TOTP codes will be made and available to criminals in short order.
> Restricted licences holders including learner, P1 and P2 drivers and riders are not permitted to use their phone at all while driving or riding. This includes use of hands-free and Bluetooth functions.
Am I misunderstanding this? Are they saying that teenagers with a learner's permit are prohibited from using their phones while riding in the passenger seat?
I imagine it's really trivial to download the Android APK, decompile it into it's source code, modify the code, and then push the modified app back on to the phone. You can be anyone you want to be. This idea does fall apart after the officer looks up the license number on his device. Do you think this would work at taverns?
One problem I have personally encountered is I am unable to obtain a digital form of identification while my license is suspended for a speeding offence. This is more annoying than not being able to drive as I still have to carry a wallet for the 1 remaining card I can't get on my iPhone.
[+] [-] afandian|6 years ago|reply
Arguments like this are the strongest for forced regulation and split up IMHO.
[+] [-] roenxi|6 years ago|reply
I can't think of an actual complaint against embedding US companies into what is in practice an important part of NSWs local governance; we might already do that credit and finance to some degree. But it just looks like another little step at creating a delicate system with single points of failure and unreasonably influential power-brokers.
[+] [-] BurningFrog|6 years ago|reply
"It’s optional and doesn’t replace the plastic card"
[+] [-] ra|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] throwaheyy|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Rebelgecko|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Benjamin_Dobell|6 years ago|reply
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oux3tI2V0sY
[+] [-] shirro|6 years ago|reply
One potential issue with having this on your phone is that you are unlocking your phone and handing it to the police which could be a problem for some people. Though people can still carry a card.
[+] [-] jlebar|6 years ago|reply
FWIW Android has a (somewhat hidden) "pin app" function that prevents users from switching to a different app without entering the lock code.
[+] [-] icanhackit|6 years ago|reply
NSW resident. If I was driving I'd carry my physical license which I'd hand to police. If I was heading out by foot to a pub, bar, bottle shop or tobacconist I'd use my phone because that's how I pay for things. I'm not young looking but if I were, at least the phone would save me carrying a wallet.
Opal, NSW's public transport payment system, works directly with contactless payment i.e. credit cards, debit cards, phones (all phones - hi Myki!), smart watches and, unsurprisingly, dedicated Opal cards. Making licenses app-based opens up the option to leave home without anything but your phone.
[+] [-] PinkMilkshake|6 years ago|reply
From the site: "You don’t need to hand over your device to the licence checker. If a licence checker is struggling to view your digital driver licence, adjust the tilt of your device or turn up your brightness settings. "
[+] [-] maxden|6 years ago|reply
It was news to me that you can lock android and iOS to a certain app so that would be a good thing to do if your license is requested.
[+] [-] bamboozled|6 years ago|reply
I guess cops carry chargers now ?
[+] [-] chris_wot|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jwilliams|6 years ago|reply
On Google Play it included access to Calendar, Camera, Photos, Location, Storage...
[+] [-] shakna|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Maxious|6 years ago|reply
IIRC a former developer explained (on reddit?) they explored other functionality like bluetooth LE verification rather than QR code
[+] [-] climb_stealth|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kube-system|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] oxplot|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] WaylonKenning|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] imglorp|6 years ago|reply
The last Android version had a weak guest mode; the current one does not seem to.
[+] [-] undersuit|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bonyt|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] shpx|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] toomanybeersies|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] vajrapani666|6 years ago|reply
I might be less ecstatic if I had a car and got pulled over and asked to show my ID. I wouldn't be comfortable handing my unlocked phone over to the state. I trust the internal walls of the mobile walled gardens more than I trust a cop.
[+] [-] lukeqsee|6 years ago|reply
"We made this thing you only need while driving, especially when stationary and stopped by the police, but it's illegal to do so unless specifically requested."
I wonder how this will be applied in reality. Will individuals stopped have to wait for the police to ask before readying their documentation without being cited in addition to whatever they were stopped for?
[+] [-] stien|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] hndamien|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] shakna|6 years ago|reply
Eventually these services can be integrated, or they might already be trialing integration silently.
> The Document Verification Service checks whether the personal information on an identity document matches the original record. Importantly this includes verification of the date of birth on Australian passports, driver licences and birth certificates.
> The Face Verification Service complements the Document Verification Service by preventing the use of stolen as well as fake identity information.
[0] [PDF] https://www.aph.gov.au/DocumentStore.ashx?id=903112ab-f5e9-4...
[+] [-] _kbh_|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] theqult|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] anticensor|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bloak|6 years ago|reply
For many years it has been possible in many countries for a police officer to enter a vehicle's number plate and get details of the registered owner, including a photo, on the screen of their own device, one which they trust. If I'm driving a friend's car I could tell the police officer my name, the number plate of a vehicle that I am linked to or some other identifier and the officer could then look me up. Why should a driver need anything beyond a good enough memory to recite some kind of identifier?
Someone who can't remember their own name arguably shouldn't be driving.
I'm looking forward to the day when we won't need passports either. (I'm sure my great-grandchildren will find it much more convenient.)
Perhaps the point of this is that it lets you give someone else, not a police officer, temporary read-access to a subset of the data on the server. Is that it perhaps? That could be useful. For example, to a club bouncer I might choose to reveal my photo and the fact that I'm over 18 without giving away my date of birth and my address, which would be shown on my physical driving licence.
Potentially some interesting technical questions about how to stop people from using someone else's licence with the other person's collaboration: an older sibling's licence, for example.
[+] [-] technion|6 years ago|reply
Secondly, being able to press a button and get shown my current demerits is extremely useful. Last time I wanted to check this I spent a good two hours on hold on the phone.
My license expires in two weeks and this is the first I found out about it. Undoubtedly due to some bungle in the traditional system.
I can see why people are concerned, and it's not going to be accepted in clubs for a while as the scanners physically won't fit a phone.
(Having deployed those scanners a few years back, I'm frankly more concerned about their privacy situation than this app).
[0] https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=au.gov.nsw.ser...
[+] [-] shirro|6 years ago|reply
Our rego is all digital in SA and we don't have rego stickers. I have been getting text reminders for years but sometimes you just want to check when things expire without logging into a website and navigating through lots of layers.
I expect NSW is the same but our app also takes boat licences, heavy vehicle licences, occupational licences as well as vehicle reg. I get that it isn't for everyone but it is a convenience.
For comparison: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=au.gov.sa.my
[+] [-] hyperrail|6 years ago|reply
You can learn more about the Delaware experiment from the same places I did:
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FYUU4wP9s8
- https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2018/03/14/mo...
[+] [-] dualboot|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] undersuit|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] angry_octet|6 years ago|reply
It is disappointing this is an online-only system. There is a continuation of a number of privacy violating practices, such as giving your DOB and driver's licence number to bars/clubs/venue security (often run by criminals, esp OLMCs). It should only show 18+ and a photo.
NSW Govt will now know exactly who goes to which venue, in real time. Insane surveillance of the citizenry.
Can't wait to see what data is in the real QR codes. Almost sounds like a TOTP code and a user/device serial number. Malware that rips these TOTP codes will be made and available to criminals in short order.
[+] [-] excalibur|6 years ago|reply
https://roadsafety.transport.nsw.gov.au/stayingsafe/mobileph...
> Restricted licences holders including learner, P1 and P2 drivers and riders are not permitted to use their phone at all while driving or riding. This includes use of hands-free and Bluetooth functions.
Am I misunderstanding this? Are they saying that teenagers with a learner's permit are prohibited from using their phones while riding in the passenger seat?
[+] [-] ska|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] TheCalicoCat|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|6 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] raver1975|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bobthepanda|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sk0g|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] spelunker|6 years ago|reply
As a CO resident I haven't really found a use for it yet. There's even a disclaimer to take your physical ID with you wherever you go.
[+] [-] jmull3n|6 years ago|reply