I find this extremely embarrassing. I'm all for the protection of French in Quebec; but stupid decisions like this makes us look bad internationally and make no sense at all. I went to Laval University too, and guess what: my whole thesis, not just one chapter, was in English. Yet, I didn't speak English until I was 18. Am I not French enough for Quebec?
I hope the employee who made this call will get in trouble. English is the language of science at the international level; mandating theses to be written in French (universities don't actually mandate this, but immigrants could now be scared to write it in English) will limit the reach of Quebec's science.
I don't support the original decision either, but the blame does not belong on the immigration officer for following an unreasonably strictly worded rule requiring studies to be "entirely" in French.
Yes, most officers don't read this particular rule literally, but immigration rules in general do and should apply literally instead of assuming that officers will always violate what the rule says in favor of contradictory judgment calls.
The fix should include replacing "entirely" with whatever they actually mean in the rules for the program. Most similar eligibility criteria in other contexts use phrases like "main language of instruction", some variation of which would work fine.
The funny thing for me in all this is that I'm an immigrant from the US, a native English speaker whose education was 100% English (including my PhD earned at a Canadian university). And yet, I was required to take English language tests in order to get permanent residence.
"I hope the employee who made this call will get in trouble"
Government employees could get in trouble for many reasons. F..ing up living person's lives with moronic decisions is not the one though. Look for example at "Windrush scandal" in UK. The action of the government in my eyes are pure human rights crimes. Good luck finding any
person from a government held responsible (never mind put in jail where they belong).
Quebec language rules and the minions that enforce them can be quite pathetic. Just a couple of months ago, the debate be was about the right of shop-keepers being able to greet their customers in both English and French, or only in French. Totally ridiculous.
I am also a native French speaker from Europe, and left Montreal because of the backward mentality. I totally respect Quebec’s need to protect their heritage, but you can’t force it down people’s throats. It is counter-productive. It wouldn’t be so funny, if Quebec French wasn’t so hilarious to listen to... they took perfectly good French and turned it into something that is often unrecognizable.
Why did the language laws make you leave Montreal? It's an island of bilingualism and many people here get by with no French. Unless you own a business or are dealing with an immigration issue, this is the one place in Quebec where the language laws have the least effect.
And I respectfully disagree that the French here is "hilarious to listen to", and I am not Quebecois.
Why would you get to decide which French is the good French? Formal register Quebec French is totally fine. Of course, on the street you can hear pretty deformed French, but guess what: in France too. That's just how language registers work.
Nearly half of a population of Riga has Russian as their native language. And yet it’s forbidden to greet customers in Russian for any shopkeeper in Riga.
I am French, in love with my language which I find to be the most beautiful in the whole universe.
I wrote my PhD thesis entirely in English because this is THE language we communicate in internationally. Sure I world prefer it to be French but it is not.
People who do not see that are still fighting for everything to be in French, in French companies working internationally. The idea is that we are in France and French should not be forced to speak another language in their own country. Yet they choose to work in an international company.
I like the rational approach in Nordic countries who teach English early (we do as well) and do not believe that striking will miraculously make the whole world pamper us.
As a French (from Paris ) I have hard time understanding there French and I rather understand when they speak English , but I don’t ask them to switch to English because I know that would drive them mad if I do
Throwaway; Response posted in case someone Google this and find this thread (Happy to see this is off the front page as this type of content doesn't belong on HN).
What's interesting with this story is to see the different media coverage it received in French and English media. The French ones gave a little more context into why her application was initially denied. Basically she didn't fill the application properly.
I've known multiple people who used the exact same program as her to immigrate. There is no language requirement for courses or thesis. However, having followed all courses in French and written a full thesis in French removes the requirement to pass a standardized French test (think TOEFL). According to the CBC article in French[1] she was warned when she started writing it that unless she translated the chapters written in English she would potentially have to pass the Standardized French test as it wouldn't be adequate to waive the requirement for a test. She ignored this warning and decided to submit her application anyways.
Later, as warned by the university officials, she received a request for evidence. She either had to pass a Standardized test OR demonstrate three years of high school level education in French (from the folks that I know who went through this, a simple copy of a French high school transcript is good enough).
She had two months to give a response but apparently waited 4 months (it's not completely obvious from the article and completely omitted from the English CBC news one [2]) to respond.
The ultimate reason why she was denied is never explicitly stated. It seems that she switched jobs while her application was pending and became a freelance illustrator. The immigration program she applied for specifically prohibits self-employment. Either that or she sent the required evidence too late and they closed her file.
tl;dr : Her paperwork was incomplete. She was warned several times and ignored a request for evidence for several months & switched to a job specifically not covered by the immigration program she was applying to.
[+] [-] dbieber|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Waterluvian|6 years ago|reply
One could argue its only because it got national coverage but I don't think we know for sure.
Ultimately I don't think it matters unless we start seeing a recurring pattern.
[+] [-] jefft255|6 years ago|reply
I hope the employee who made this call will get in trouble. English is the language of science at the international level; mandating theses to be written in French (universities don't actually mandate this, but immigrants could now be scared to write it in English) will limit the reach of Quebec's science.
[+] [-] jkaplowitz|6 years ago|reply
Yes, most officers don't read this particular rule literally, but immigration rules in general do and should apply literally instead of assuming that officers will always violate what the rule says in favor of contradictory judgment calls.
The fix should include replacing "entirely" with whatever they actually mean in the rules for the program. Most similar eligibility criteria in other contexts use phrases like "main language of instruction", some variation of which would work fine.
[+] [-] klyrs|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] FpUser|6 years ago|reply
Government employees could get in trouble for many reasons. F..ing up living person's lives with moronic decisions is not the one though. Look for example at "Windrush scandal" in UK. The action of the government in my eyes are pure human rights crimes. Good luck finding any person from a government held responsible (never mind put in jail where they belong).
[+] [-] 908B64B197|6 years ago|reply
All this girl had to do is pass a standardized test and add it to her application. She was warned when she started her PhD program years ago.
[+] [-] floki999|6 years ago|reply
I am also a native French speaker from Europe, and left Montreal because of the backward mentality. I totally respect Quebec’s need to protect their heritage, but you can’t force it down people’s throats. It is counter-productive. It wouldn’t be so funny, if Quebec French wasn’t so hilarious to listen to... they took perfectly good French and turned it into something that is often unrecognizable.
[+] [-] vaughnegut|6 years ago|reply
And I respectfully disagree that the French here is "hilarious to listen to", and I am not Quebecois.
[+] [-] jefft255|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] whytaka|6 years ago|reply
As I understand it, you’ve got that switched. International French, the French of metropolitan France, is the one that had changed dramatically.
[+] [-] tangue|6 years ago|reply
This kind of talk, is one of the reasons French are hated in Quebec.
[+] [-] samat|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] 1996|6 years ago|reply
Just my 2 cents, and wishing you the best wherever you are now
[+] [-] BrandoElFollito|6 years ago|reply
I wrote my PhD thesis entirely in English because this is THE language we communicate in internationally. Sure I world prefer it to be French but it is not.
People who do not see that are still fighting for everything to be in French, in French companies working internationally. The idea is that we are in France and French should not be forced to speak another language in their own country. Yet they choose to work in an international company.
I like the rational approach in Nordic countries who teach English early (we do as well) and do not believe that striking will miraculously make the whole world pamper us.
[+] [-] samtrack2019|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] 908B64B197|6 years ago|reply
What's interesting with this story is to see the different media coverage it received in French and English media. The French ones gave a little more context into why her application was initially denied. Basically she didn't fill the application properly.
I've known multiple people who used the exact same program as her to immigrate. There is no language requirement for courses or thesis. However, having followed all courses in French and written a full thesis in French removes the requirement to pass a standardized French test (think TOEFL). According to the CBC article in French[1] she was warned when she started writing it that unless she translated the chapters written in English she would potentially have to pass the Standardized French test as it wouldn't be adequate to waive the requirement for a test. She ignored this warning and decided to submit her application anyways.
Later, as warned by the university officials, she received a request for evidence. She either had to pass a Standardized test OR demonstrate three years of high school level education in French (from the folks that I know who went through this, a simple copy of a French high school transcript is good enough).
She had two months to give a response but apparently waited 4 months (it's not completely obvious from the article and completely omitted from the English CBC news one [2]) to respond.
The ultimate reason why she was denied is never explicitly stated. It seems that she switched jobs while her application was pending and became a freelance illustrator. The immigration program she applied for specifically prohibits self-employment. Either that or she sent the required evidence too late and they closed her file.
tl;dr : Her paperwork was incomplete. She was warned several times and ignored a request for evidence for several months & switched to a job specifically not covered by the immigration program she was applying to.
Case closed. [1] https://ici.radio-canada.ca/nouvelle/1378665/immigration-que... [2] https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/french-thesis-immigr...
[+] [-] stevespang|6 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] smdz|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|6 years ago|reply
[deleted]