When Ronald Graham, a concerned friend and fellow mathematician, bet him [Erdos] $500 that he couldn’t stay off his drug of choice for a month, Erdos accepted and easily won the challenge. When the 30 days was up, Erdos said to Graham, “You’ve showed me I’m not an addict. But I didn’t get any work done. I’d get up in the morning and stare at a blank piece of paper. I’d have no ideas, just like an ordinary person. You’ve set mathematics back a month.” Erdos resumed taking amphetamines and did so for every day of his life until his death 17 years later.
Does this amphetamine use constitute abuse? Drug abuse is typically defined as use that creates negative effects to the person's social and/or personal health. It seems to me his drug use gave him the ability to work at a high level and allowed him to derive self-worth from that work. He was also able to discontinue the drug use at will. Even if there were some negative health side-effects, I wonder if abuse should be the term used here.
I tried to read it but didn't get the answer, I did get the good question: WTF happened in 1971?
I have a dark suspicion that it has something to do with the rise of computers, of information economy. When some people can take advantage of computers and others can't that leads to income disparity.
One thing I hardly find documented is: what is the daily usage of the hard core users? How does it compare to the 10-60 mg daily dosages prescribed for ADHD
It's difficult to tell since so many street users of amphetamine are taking 200-500+mg of "street speed" per dose, which could be anywhere from 10-50%+ in purity.
Hi Everyone, Thanks for the insight. More than I have seen in the many articles I have scanned. I have seen quite a few suggestions to take a break periodically from AHDH meds to help keep tolerance down in other places, but I always wondered what the heavy users were doing.
Interesting read. I've always assumed that prescription drug pushing and addiction problems were a modern phenomenon, so it's interesting to read about drug companies developing and pushing addictive drugs almost a century ago.
It’s always interesting to me how illegal drugs wax and wane in popularity.
We like to blame opioid over-prescribing for the surge in opioid use, but there was also a heroin “epidemic” in the 1970’s that slowly petered out as cocaine became the focus in the 80’s.
They are pretty similar events. Cheap opium started coming in from Southeast asia in the 70s in the wake of Vietnam.
Over-prescribing led to dependency, and the higher cost and other difficulties in getting prescriptions drove many users to cheaper, more dangerous black market alternatives. (especially synthetics like Fentanyl.)
Do you want to reduce drug addiction? Make the world a better place. Everyone suffers so much. Loneliness, depression and anxiety and becoming more prevalent. These are increased risk factors for addiction.
Are you familiar with the rat park experiment? You’re making claims directly supported by its findings.
One of the most interesting was that happy rats who had pleasant quarters and social interaction would choose not to take drugs (morphine, iirc) even if they had used them previously. Pretty interesting stuff.
(throwaway just in case, although i do not keep it a secret from friends)
tl;dr; No, amphetamines are not pleasant/euphoric for everyone. Not everyone get high/wired/"sped up" on it. Not a wonder drug for everyone. May help with depression induced by anxiety induced by not getting shit done (not necessarily by getting something done, but instead switching attention away from things not done).
My whole life I was not able to do much of mental work during the day, with my most productive time being around midnight +- 3-4 hours. I kinda just lived with it considering it being due to the way I grew up. I got my first full time job at around 25 yo (before that it was freelancing) and got hit hard with a "normal" schedule (be at work at 8am, leave office at 5pm, try to fall asleep at 11pm to be ready to wake at 7am next day). That was a time I started drinking coffee. It used to give me goosebumps, even at a small sip from a typical office low-end brewing machine. Did not really helped much, but I think it gave me that initial boost and I stuck with it. Nowadays I almost never drink tea (used to be my exclusive brewed beverage) and mostly drink coffee.
Fast forward in my earlier 30ties. I get quite regularly severe depression-like (never diagnosed) periods. Trying different things, reading a lot online. Eventually meeting with psychiatrist explaining what is going on (can't do stuff during the day, getting depressed quite regularly about it, bunch of other shit) suspecting all of that causing anxiety which metamorphosing into depression. Honestly, I wasn't quite sure if it is true physiological condition or just some period in my life where my habits and life stage got in conflicts with each others. I read about ADHD and it seemed quite familiar. I also considered bi-polar condition, but psychiatrist ruled it out.
As for ADHD, psychiatrist was very reluctant to write such a diagnose given that I had relatively good life (good income, lack of destructive impulsive actions affecting life quality, family, job, etc). He started me at 5mg extended release. It did literally nothing. Over months trying he bumped it to 25mg XR and after that failed to produce any noticeable effect, he suggested to try 20mg instant release twice a day. Safe long-term maintenance dose accordingly to FDA is 70mg. At that point I certainly felt some effect, but I am not quite sure it is what everyone think it feels like.
First of all, very counter-intuitive - amphetamine often makes me sleepy and tired. But if I try to take a nap, I almost never can truly fall asleep. Most of the time I just end up laying in the bed with closed eyes. The whole experience doesn't feel energizing or euphoric at all.
Secondly, on many days it appears to reduce anxiety about "getting something done" to the point where I did not experience my regular depression episodes this year.
With instant release, I have to take it twice a day. I often forget to take second pill. Sometimes I forget to take a first one. I tried nicotine vape earlier, and i dont think i ever forgot to take vape mod with me, or keeping it full and charged.
With 20mg instant release I sometimes experienced "locked down" feeling, which I found quite unpleasant. Not sure if it is that "focus" feeling everyone is talking about, but it certainly was different from focus I get when I am "in the zone" (the pleasant one). My solution was to break 20mg in half and take 10mg each 2hrs. Downside - I get more chances to forget about it during the day.
Going higher than 20mg twice a day seems to be pointless, as I already prefer to break 20mg twice a day to 10mg four times a day. It also raises blood pressure noticeably, and I would expect higher dose will do it even more. Effects of it are certainly not pleasant enough for me to even consider taking it recreationally. But it seems to help with depression/anxiety episodes - so far one year, will see how it will feel next spring, as it is the time I had the most of these episodes. So it seems this crutch is helping me somewhat.
Interspersed with all this pedantry is a smarmy judgement towards stimulants and COMPLETE LACK of context of the times, and a lack of any societal or species context that recognizes the BREATHTAKING ACHIEVEMENTS during said times of "Oh so bad bad we should be ashamed it's an epidemic!" There's an undercurrent here that is almost criminal.
The sin is not excess, certainly at 5mg a dose. The sin is not 'euphoria', which often turns out to be psych-speak for 'a simple will to live'. What people crave with caffeine and amphetamine is mental alertness. Caffeine delivers, speed delivers more. And with that people can do, have done, incredible things.
Aside from the specific physiological effects like chronically overbearing hearts that also plagues athletes, the worst mental effects of stimulants are often blamed directly on the drug -- not abusers' lack of discipline -- and result from a LACK OF or DISRUPTION OF sleep. Stimulants do NOT, in themselves, make you crazy.
I dated someone with a meth problem for five years and would disagree with you. Meth completely changes a person's personality.
I think all drugs should be legal and think humans have done amazing things with/on drugs. I've also seen this go horribly awry and witnessed some absolutely insane things from people on speed. There's a lot more to it than simply a lack of sleep.
I was using a moderate, prescribed dose of Vyvanse/Adderall, I've always basically always had ADHD type symptoms and it was never a huge issue, but I never took any pills until I was an adult in an attempt to focus and get promoted at my big 4 job.
It ended up backfiring as I had a manic/psychotic episode, which led to highly erratic behavior that led to me losing my job, burning all my career bridges, etc. Then I also got diagnosed with heart failure. Almost ruined my life in every sense.
Since then I'm just totally sober, off all meds, and fortunately my brain and heart have both fully recovered. Were there other factors that triggered the episode, sure, did I probably have some predisposition to these issues, sure, but I highly suspect that the ADHD meds played a major role in triggering it all and I would highly caution people against them.
Ok, call me crazy, but I've got this weird pet theory that says that while some drugs can offer benefits, they also carry a risk of harm. I call these “side effects”. Another theory of mine is that drugs that offer benefits such as improvements in mood and energy, these drugs can lead to people wanting more of them, especially if they're physiologically addicting. People might even hoard their drugs so they can use them in larger quantities or they may buy them illegally so they can use them recreationally rather than as medications to correct a professionally diagnosed problem. I call this “drug seeking behavior” and “substance abuse”. Absolutely nothing wrong with the drugs themselves though. Just like opiates. Absolutely nothing wrong with those drugs and the suggestion that there is an opiate epidemic is just trying to tell us all that we should be ashamed of ourselves because of an alleged epidemic.
“COMPLETE LACK of context of the times”
You misplaced “complete” in your sentence. The article may lack complete context, but there isn't a complete lack of context.
“BREATHTAKING ACHIEVEMENTS during said times”
This reminds me of my peers who brag about how great the music was back when we were kids, as though they can take credit for how good the music was that other people played just because we happened to be alive at the time so we could drop doses of things like amphetamines while listening to it. I would concede that some people who were high on amphetamines could do a lot of things – even great things – that isn't quite a proof of them being a net social good.
“There's an undercurrent here that's almost criminal.”
I'd love to read some actual quotes from the article that support your assertion.
“Stimulants do NOT, in themselves, make you crazy.”
Stimulants like speed are highly addictive. With mental alertness also comes euphoria that users chase. It builds tolerance quickly and users resort to taking ever larger amounts that ends up devastating their bodies.
Typically our bladders protect us from meaningful abuse of caffeine.
Amphetamines are super addictive and are prone to abuse. You build a tolerance and chase either euphoria or that increased alertness. In military context, the operations surrounding German conquest of France and allied bombing campaigns meaningfully benefited from speed. But there was a pretty significant and trivially measurable human cost to the soldiers who used them heavily.
Check out the book "Blitzed" for an interesting history of it's use in WW2.
>> What people crave with caffeine and amphetamine is mental alertness. Caffeine delivers, speed delivers more. And with that people can do, have done, incredible things.
Sleeping well, eating well, keeping fit and surrounding yourself with interesting people - those deliver many times more than caffeine and amphetamine without any of the side-effects or the risk of addiction.
Man this sounds like the rant of someone hopped up on goofballs.
Tell me what transpires when society loses the tradition of staying amped on uppers for the sake of success?
Let's say society kind of forgets that all success depends on speed, and the next generation isn't clued in on the reality that all prior achievements were the result of maxing out doses?
They try to do it sober, and can't, and don't understand why.
Most people would think the government is responsible for all these drug epidemics: the DEA jailing minorities on minor infractions or the CIA hustling cocaine between countries (look it up).
But really the true culprit is just the youth, and always has been. Ever since the early 1900s traditional family values and social community/cohesion has been seriously on decline. Say what you will about Ted Kaczynski, but his essay/book Industrial Society and its Future is a wealth of knowledge on this subject (strange I know coming from a Christian woman).
But look at it this way: people resort to drugs because reality sucks. Why does reality suck? Well, we live in a society, and this very society (and its implicit social network) causes our youth to suffer.
Just look at how much the new Joker movie resonated with kids, teenagers and young adults! Heck, my niece of 12 years was itching to put on a mask and march in the street after she walked out of the theater. It was terrifying.
“The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.”
Youth is not the problem, and I don't agree with the other comment saying that youth has it better than previous generations. People just see all the "good things" and how "easy" it is for young people to do things they weren't able to when they were young. But understand that the young people of today have to deal with all the stupid decisions of previous generations, they have to conform to society like never before, and there is so much pressure and uncertainty about so many things (climate, political non-sense), they are being bombarded with violent and sad information all the time. I can understand why young people go to drugs to find some piece in the middle of this mess.
I'm 29 and I'd gladly throw away some of the modern "progress" we made for more freedom, more privacy, and a society that doesn't flat out reject some type of people for their view, their ideas, or lifestyle which doesn't allign with our single minded society.
Things were not great some century ago, they were often beyond fucked and average joe's life meant nothing, nobody cared, nobody helped apart from close family, which was often not enough.
Young folks are generally pretty stupid and inexperienced (duh). I know damn well, was one of those. Due to peer pressure itching to get wasted, on anything available (luckily there wasn't much). Looking desperately for approvals and doing stupid shit for 15 seconds of fame, risking getting crippled for life or even dying. Generally clueless about life, what I want from it, which direction to go.
But it was OK, everybody was more or less on the same boat, so you didn't feel behind. We talk about east Europe here in 80s and 90s, there were basically no drugs apart from alcohol and nicotine and no organized crime. People had simpler ways to be miserable and waste life. These days, constant exposure to people better off than yourself leave a lot of room for desire. There is always somebody on Facebook having great time on vacation or having time of their life on other way.
This phase will pass. It is part of growing up, rebellion to previous generations, feeling that all and everybody is shit. Some might get stuck there and its usually not so nice story, but that's life. It ain't supposed to be a game on easy difficulty.
I would disagree that today’s youth are suffering because ‘reality sucks’. If anything the youth of today have it better than ever before. In 1950 [at least in the USA] a youth would not have had access to reliable information on possible career choices and outcomes apart from maybe a school counselor, now that information is available instantly on the internet. Likewise reality would have really sucked had the youth had the youth been female or LGBT, as reliable contraception and abortion were not available. Likewise suicide and crises services were not as available. Now we have things like the it gets better project, texting to social hotlines. This has vastly improved the options available to the youth of today for psychological support.
Of course reality will still suck for some, but it is vastly better than 50-70 years ago.
[+] [-] jjgreen|6 years ago|reply
https://turningpointtreatmentcenter.com/why-are-intelligent-...
[+] [-] desks_dos|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] philwelch|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ehmish|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] galaxyLogic|6 years ago|reply
I have a dark suspicion that it has something to do with the rise of computers, of information economy. When some people can take advantage of computers and others can't that leads to income disparity.
[+] [-] rmbryan|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] zafka|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] refurb|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|6 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] oarabbus_|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] zafka|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] PragmaticPulp|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] saalweachter|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] refurb|6 years ago|reply
We like to blame opioid over-prescribing for the surge in opioid use, but there was also a heroin “epidemic” in the 1970’s that slowly petered out as cocaine became the focus in the 80’s.
[+] [-] smileysteve|6 years ago|reply
Well, we know more about this one now, thanks Reagan and Iran-Contra.
[+] [-] Spooky23|6 years ago|reply
Over-prescribing led to dependency, and the higher cost and other difficulties in getting prescriptions drove many users to cheaper, more dangerous black market alternatives. (especially synthetics like Fentanyl.)
[+] [-] npo9|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] justwalt|6 years ago|reply
One of the most interesting was that happy rats who had pleasant quarters and social interaction would choose not to take drugs (morphine, iirc) even if they had used them previously. Pretty interesting stuff.
[+] [-] marcoseliziario|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] throwaway141851|6 years ago|reply
tl;dr; No, amphetamines are not pleasant/euphoric for everyone. Not everyone get high/wired/"sped up" on it. Not a wonder drug for everyone. May help with depression induced by anxiety induced by not getting shit done (not necessarily by getting something done, but instead switching attention away from things not done).
My whole life I was not able to do much of mental work during the day, with my most productive time being around midnight +- 3-4 hours. I kinda just lived with it considering it being due to the way I grew up. I got my first full time job at around 25 yo (before that it was freelancing) and got hit hard with a "normal" schedule (be at work at 8am, leave office at 5pm, try to fall asleep at 11pm to be ready to wake at 7am next day). That was a time I started drinking coffee. It used to give me goosebumps, even at a small sip from a typical office low-end brewing machine. Did not really helped much, but I think it gave me that initial boost and I stuck with it. Nowadays I almost never drink tea (used to be my exclusive brewed beverage) and mostly drink coffee.
Fast forward in my earlier 30ties. I get quite regularly severe depression-like (never diagnosed) periods. Trying different things, reading a lot online. Eventually meeting with psychiatrist explaining what is going on (can't do stuff during the day, getting depressed quite regularly about it, bunch of other shit) suspecting all of that causing anxiety which metamorphosing into depression. Honestly, I wasn't quite sure if it is true physiological condition or just some period in my life where my habits and life stage got in conflicts with each others. I read about ADHD and it seemed quite familiar. I also considered bi-polar condition, but psychiatrist ruled it out.
As for ADHD, psychiatrist was very reluctant to write such a diagnose given that I had relatively good life (good income, lack of destructive impulsive actions affecting life quality, family, job, etc). He started me at 5mg extended release. It did literally nothing. Over months trying he bumped it to 25mg XR and after that failed to produce any noticeable effect, he suggested to try 20mg instant release twice a day. Safe long-term maintenance dose accordingly to FDA is 70mg. At that point I certainly felt some effect, but I am not quite sure it is what everyone think it feels like.
First of all, very counter-intuitive - amphetamine often makes me sleepy and tired. But if I try to take a nap, I almost never can truly fall asleep. Most of the time I just end up laying in the bed with closed eyes. The whole experience doesn't feel energizing or euphoric at all.
Secondly, on many days it appears to reduce anxiety about "getting something done" to the point where I did not experience my regular depression episodes this year.
With instant release, I have to take it twice a day. I often forget to take second pill. Sometimes I forget to take a first one. I tried nicotine vape earlier, and i dont think i ever forgot to take vape mod with me, or keeping it full and charged.
With 20mg instant release I sometimes experienced "locked down" feeling, which I found quite unpleasant. Not sure if it is that "focus" feeling everyone is talking about, but it certainly was different from focus I get when I am "in the zone" (the pleasant one). My solution was to break 20mg in half and take 10mg each 2hrs. Downside - I get more chances to forget about it during the day.
Going higher than 20mg twice a day seems to be pointless, as I already prefer to break 20mg twice a day to 10mg four times a day. It also raises blood pressure noticeably, and I would expect higher dose will do it even more. Effects of it are certainly not pleasant enough for me to even consider taking it recreationally. But it seems to help with depression/anxiety episodes - so far one year, will see how it will feel next spring, as it is the time I had the most of these episodes. So it seems this crutch is helping me somewhat.
[+] [-] HocusLocus|6 years ago|reply
Interspersed with all this pedantry is a smarmy judgement towards stimulants and COMPLETE LACK of context of the times, and a lack of any societal or species context that recognizes the BREATHTAKING ACHIEVEMENTS during said times of "Oh so bad bad we should be ashamed it's an epidemic!" There's an undercurrent here that is almost criminal.
The sin is not excess, certainly at 5mg a dose. The sin is not 'euphoria', which often turns out to be psych-speak for 'a simple will to live'. What people crave with caffeine and amphetamine is mental alertness. Caffeine delivers, speed delivers more. And with that people can do, have done, incredible things.
Aside from the specific physiological effects like chronically overbearing hearts that also plagues athletes, the worst mental effects of stimulants are often blamed directly on the drug -- not abusers' lack of discipline -- and result from a LACK OF or DISRUPTION OF sleep. Stimulants do NOT, in themselves, make you crazy.
[+] [-] dang|6 years ago|reply
This is in the site guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
[+] [-] irscott|6 years ago|reply
I think all drugs should be legal and think humans have done amazing things with/on drugs. I've also seen this go horribly awry and witnessed some absolutely insane things from people on speed. There's a lot more to it than simply a lack of sleep.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stimulant_psychosis
[+] [-] ditonal|6 years ago|reply
It ended up backfiring as I had a manic/psychotic episode, which led to highly erratic behavior that led to me losing my job, burning all my career bridges, etc. Then I also got diagnosed with heart failure. Almost ruined my life in every sense.
Since then I'm just totally sober, off all meds, and fortunately my brain and heart have both fully recovered. Were there other factors that triggered the episode, sure, did I probably have some predisposition to these issues, sure, but I highly suspect that the ADHD meds played a major role in triggering it all and I would highly caution people against them.
[+] [-] CPLX|6 years ago|reply
Perhaps. They do, however, have a pretty direct relationship with overly verbose writing and excessive use of all-caps formatting.
[+] [-] Cougher|6 years ago|reply
“COMPLETE LACK of context of the times”
You misplaced “complete” in your sentence. The article may lack complete context, but there isn't a complete lack of context.
“BREATHTAKING ACHIEVEMENTS during said times”
This reminds me of my peers who brag about how great the music was back when we were kids, as though they can take credit for how good the music was that other people played just because we happened to be alive at the time so we could drop doses of things like amphetamines while listening to it. I would concede that some people who were high on amphetamines could do a lot of things – even great things – that isn't quite a proof of them being a net social good.
“There's an undercurrent here that's almost criminal.”
I'd love to read some actual quotes from the article that support your assertion.
“Stimulants do NOT, in themselves, make you crazy.”
Such as a quote that claims this.
[+] [-] trianglem|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Spooky23|6 years ago|reply
Amphetamines are super addictive and are prone to abuse. You build a tolerance and chase either euphoria or that increased alertness. In military context, the operations surrounding German conquest of France and allied bombing campaigns meaningfully benefited from speed. But there was a pretty significant and trivially measurable human cost to the soldiers who used them heavily.
Check out the book "Blitzed" for an interesting history of it's use in WW2.
[+] [-] YeGoblynQueenne|6 years ago|reply
Sleeping well, eating well, keeping fit and surrounding yourself with interesting people - those deliver many times more than caffeine and amphetamine without any of the side-effects or the risk of addiction.
[+] [-] oarabbus_|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dillPicklez|6 years ago|reply
Tell me what transpires when society loses the tradition of staying amped on uppers for the sake of success?
Let's say society kind of forgets that all success depends on speed, and the next generation isn't clued in on the reality that all prior achievements were the result of maxing out doses?
They try to do it sober, and can't, and don't understand why.
What then?
[+] [-] unknown|6 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] ydb|6 years ago|reply
But really the true culprit is just the youth, and always has been. Ever since the early 1900s traditional family values and social community/cohesion has been seriously on decline. Say what you will about Ted Kaczynski, but his essay/book Industrial Society and its Future is a wealth of knowledge on this subject (strange I know coming from a Christian woman).
But look at it this way: people resort to drugs because reality sucks. Why does reality suck? Well, we live in a society, and this very society (and its implicit social network) causes our youth to suffer.
Just look at how much the new Joker movie resonated with kids, teenagers and young adults! Heck, my niece of 12 years was itching to put on a mask and march in the street after she walked out of the theater. It was terrifying.
[+] [-] gerbilly|6 years ago|reply
― Socrates
[+] [-] tsukurimashou|6 years ago|reply
I'm 29 and I'd gladly throw away some of the modern "progress" we made for more freedom, more privacy, and a society that doesn't flat out reject some type of people for their view, their ideas, or lifestyle which doesn't allign with our single minded society.
[+] [-] sitharus|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] saiya-jin|6 years ago|reply
Young folks are generally pretty stupid and inexperienced (duh). I know damn well, was one of those. Due to peer pressure itching to get wasted, on anything available (luckily there wasn't much). Looking desperately for approvals and doing stupid shit for 15 seconds of fame, risking getting crippled for life or even dying. Generally clueless about life, what I want from it, which direction to go.
But it was OK, everybody was more or less on the same boat, so you didn't feel behind. We talk about east Europe here in 80s and 90s, there were basically no drugs apart from alcohol and nicotine and no organized crime. People had simpler ways to be miserable and waste life. These days, constant exposure to people better off than yourself leave a lot of room for desire. There is always somebody on Facebook having great time on vacation or having time of their life on other way.
This phase will pass. It is part of growing up, rebellion to previous generations, feeling that all and everybody is shit. Some might get stuck there and its usually not so nice story, but that's life. It ain't supposed to be a game on easy difficulty.
[+] [-] etaioinshrdlu|6 years ago|reply
I would argue that drug addiction is affecting older adults much more severely than youth.
I can definitely agree that social cohesion in America has been somewhat awful for generations.
[+] [-] rayhendricks|6 years ago|reply
Of course reality will still suck for some, but it is vastly better than 50-70 years ago.