You know that Golden Rule?" Not the one that VCs quote, but the one that goes "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you?"
We should think about that when we choose how to deal with uncontacted tribes. It may be that one day another intelligence will need to decide how to deal with us, and on that day I hope we can say, "Yes, we used to have a habit of massacring technologically inferior peoples we encountered, but we grew up a little and we don't do that any more. Then we used to keep them alive but destroy their culture and identity while mouthing platitudes about how we were helping them, but we grew up a little and we don't do that any more either."
We should give them access to technology and to our way of life. Our way of life is better. Preserving their backwards culture so they can continue lives of misery and suffering is just as disgusting as the Prime Directive.
Help is exactly what I would want from advanced alien visitors. I don't want them to respect my culture just because it is mine; I want something better for myself, not cultural relativism.
There is nothing good or enviable about uncivilized lifestyles to preserve; any actions that maintain them in that lifestyle are ensuring they literally die young, mostly of preventable causes. Their lives are short, uncomfortable and brutal. Trying to minimize contact is ensuring they do not get modern medical care and that they retain their dark ages quality (or worse) myths and prejudices.
I'll go one further: How do you know other civilizations don't go "the inhabitants of Earth are one of the few uncontacted civilizations left in the galaxy" and petition the Intergalactic Council to not harvest the sun for energy?
It sounds far-fetched, but do you think this tribe is thinking "there are other civilizations on Earth that we've never talked to, yet they're trying not to destroy us"?
>... we grew up a little and we don't do that any more either.
The only 3rd alternative being "Now we wall them in, pretend they don't exist, and tell people not to tap on the glass"? And those really are the only options, unless you know of an approach that isn't fundamentally the same as one of "kill them", "bring them into our culture", or "prevent our culture from getting into theirs".
I'll take door number 2, thanks. And I hope anyone/thing that sees this will proceed to destroy my culture and identity to bring me closer to seeing the rest of the universe as it really is.
I think this is exactly the kind of situation where the Golden Rule fails hardcore. If I think about it in that manner, I think "I'd want the hell out!" Who I am and how I would want people to treat me is largely shaped by the culture I live in. I wouldn't be me if I lived in those tribes.
We shouldn't be thinking about how we would want to be treated in that situation, we should think about what they want, now. And that's generally for those bulldozer things to stop mowing down their homes.
The concept of "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you?" is implicitly biased as it project's your worldview/morals/values/etc onto the "others" in question.
If the goal is to understand, support and/or show respect for the uncontacted tribes, I think the focus should be adjusted to: "Do unto others as they want you to do unto them".
I wonder what kind of disturbance just the helicopter (or whatever method was used to capture the footage) caused on the tribe.
Obviously the tribe was aware of it, but if they've never been contacted, would they be able to even fathom what such a thing is? I'm genuinely curious because I'm also genuinely ignorant on how "uncontacted" tribes like that are and what their civilization is like.
Could anyone enlighten me? It seems like such a fascinating area of study.
There's a pretty detailed article (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1022822/Incre...) that explains what anthropologists assume they're thinking. It's basically "Stay Away" since the plane is a foreign object. In fact, you can see the tribesmen readying their weapons in case the flying object veers towards them.
I would expect that it would do what every other unexplainable but repeated phenomena did in pre-scientific cultures, become part of the mythology. See: Weather.
But my only anthropology was a few GE classes in undergrad, so maybe someone with actual knowledge can chime in?
Hopefully future history books (or niche Ph.D. theses more likely ...) won't include a section about the bloody war between the plane-ists and the aplane-ists, over the deep theological issue of gods made manifest and physically watching over you... [See discussion below, not meant as a dig about this specific video or this specific group of people]
The uncontacted tribes are not unknown and they are not ignorant that there is a world outside with airplanes. They are uncontacted because they choose not to make contact with non-tribal outsiders. This is in part due to violent conflicts in the past.
There's a statement by a Yamomani leader on the site that uncontacted tribes should be left alone on their own lands and since governments like Peru were denying their existence, the photos will help.
Yanomami if you recall are a stone age people from this area who only made peaceful contact a few decades ago. They have had contact and familiarity with some of these other tribes.
The tribes in this video are protected somewhat by the Brazilian government which uses aerial visits to check on the condition of tribes and make sure that outsiders have not breeched the perimeter of the reserve.
I assume you're hinting at the theory regarding the Native Americans not being able to comprehend Columbus's ships.
It would definitely be an interesting research study, though getting the paperwork filed might be a bit of a challenge :-)
To be honest, I'm not sure I agree with what they've done. I have no proof, or evidence of anything, just a gut feel. That moment could have irreversibly changed each one of their lives - possibly for the worse.
Its all of our world, I know, but still. I mean, they're not zoo animals.
I'm sure they've seen planes plenty of times, I mean commercial airliners fly pretty much everywhere I think? I'm sure they'd love to see it up close though. They must assume it's a bird monster or something.
You can't imagine how right you are. Tribes like this do not exist officially. Loggers would not hesitate to wipe them off - problems solved, no questions asked.
What is more troublesome, is that nobody knows how often this has happened in the past.
I have been skimming over the comments in here, and I have come to two thoughts. First off, I don't have a well-established stance, but our god-like observation of their civilization is ... strange. I wonder what would happen if they all were struck by a terrible disease as the scientists with their kilometre-spying cameras watched. Would they go and help? Where's their "don't contact them" nature, then?
But that wasn't the thought I intended to contemplate. Some people have said that their culture is lost. Why is their culture lost? And this is terrible, but, does it matter? If their culture is full of things long since dis-proven, what has been lost? If they choose to leave their old ways upon discovering/learning (through whatever means) our ways, what does that matter? Please explain why these things are bad to me. If a people has chosen a different way of life upon experiencing it, who cares that it's gone? The anthropologists that were having fun? This desperation to keep these people isolated reminds me of another article I read on HN a while ago that discussed scientists that were very sad about the situation that polar bears and grizzlies were beginning to breed. I thought it was beautiful to see their joined species able to survive, but I can only imagine the people that wanted to keep them separate were disappointed, in part, because there wouldn't be any pure-bred polar bears anymore.
My other thought is a request to HN for this very type of article. Please, please, please, for heated debates like this with the numerous tree-like threads. Please make a way to collapse sub-threads so the train of thought that brought someone to a particular point can be clearly seen.
No. This is empty sensationalism. It’s extremely unlikely there are any tribes whose existence is totally unknown to anyone else. The uncontacted tribe in these photos has been monitored by the Brazilian government for 20 years, and lives in a reserve set up to protect uncontacted tribes."
Absolutely fascinating stuff, and for me anyway it raises some interesting ethical questions. Making contact with these tribes would (I would imagine) destroy a lot of culture, to say nothing of the obvious issues of disease, etc. On the other hand, in a society where we claim to value innovation and progress, failing to offer these tribes the benefits available to others feels a little wrong. Given the choice between our lifestyles and theirs, how many of us would choose theirs?
It raises some interesting legal questions too. In the United States for example, I believe (and I could be wrong on this) starting in 2014 we would fine these tribes for failure to purchase health insurance. To say nothing of the "Republican Form of Government" guarantee in the constitution.
Traditionally those legal problems are solved by simply granting these people exceptions. I mean aboriginal people and native Americans do get special treatment in some cases.
The idea of uncontacted tribes - still in existence - is awesome. ...but it's a little scary too to consider the famous Arthur C. Clarke quote "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
Sure, these tribes may not have been contacted, but what mythologies have evolved to explain the strange, huge bird in the sky that circles around them from time to time?
I am really getting a kick out of the ironic juxtaposition of the most technologically primitive segment of the world population getting space up here at the top of Hacker News. After all, the Hacker News audience represents arguably the most technologically sophisticated segment of the world population.
Unfortunately I think Hacker News, in this thread, is providing support to the thesis that there is something about the engineer mindset that is inherently authoritarian and extremist.
This has better photos. According to NBC report in 2008, an agency has been aware of the tribe and have been tracking (and not contacting) them since 1910.
The child in the first picture has very big and modern looking blade on his hand and a metallic pot is on the ground as pointed out by Keyframe in an another comment. Far from uncontacted.
This "footage" hit the news a couple of years ago in Brazil, and a couple of days later was challenged as being fake. I could look more into details and see if there is any translation from the articles back then, but I will stand that this is NOT an "uncontacted tribe".
As far as the argument of contact or no contact, I don't have an answer but I think the issue is that contact often destroys the culture rather than helps it grow and evolve.
I have read some things that indicated native americans lost in part because they adopted guns and abandoned bows. They lacked the means to make or money to buy the type of oil that would work in cold weather and used lard instead, which firms up in the cold. They would keep their guns under their blankets with them to keep the lard warm enough for the guns to work. Just adopting one piece of technology did not resolve their problems and it was a technology they were ill equipped to adequately maintain.
I am reminded of a scene in "Lawrence of Arabia" where he tells the Arabs "If you take English engineers, you take English rule."
Where you have a large, "evolved" culture with a density of people, material goods, information and so on, contact with a culture that is less "dense" (in terms of numbers of people, amount of material goods, etc) tends to simply wipe it out, sometimes literally killing all members (because microbes in large communities evolve rapidly and become more virulent -- Americans who move to Europe, which is more densely populated, routinely wind up with a horrific flu shortly after moving there, far worse than the flu bugs typically caught in the U.S. This is common knowledge in the military community/among military families who have ever lived over there.).
I wish a knew a means to gently make contact and offer options. I think that would be the ideal. I have no idea if it is achievable.
It's so easy to play God hovering in the skies, and make decisions for these people's future, isn't it? Maybe they actually don't enjoy 50+% child mortality, dying of appendicitis, and having to barter a truckload of plantains for a pot and a steel machete. Why don't they send someone on the ground, to explain to them that there's a big world out there that can change their ways forever, and give them a choice whether they'd like to be a part of it or not?
Well, you could not simply explain it to them, you would have to show it to some of them, and let them live the life, before they could make an informed decision.
Perhaps the best advice would be to contact other tribes that have been assimilated, and see how they feel about the process. Would they go back, if they could?
The existence of isolated social groups isn't a mind-blowing concept to me, but not something I think about daily either. Does a new awareness of the exception to the rule really change your perception of how interconnected most of humanity is?
Maybe I'm reading too much into this comment, but something about it seems to imply that being disconnected from the global network is a bad thing. Though I myself am a highly plugged-in urbanite, I hope that people who see this remember that living in a small group (or even alone) is just as valid as assimilating with the vast network that connects the majority.
Meta about some of the comments on this post: I've never seen such unbridled arrogance and xenophobia in a post on HN before. The our way or the highway attitude is shocking.
I think the focused nature of HN content generally hides the crazy. Even though the site is populated by techs and businessmen we're still pretty much just a random cross section of society, only linked by our common interest.
This issue is tricky and not for some of the reasons I've seen listed in this thread. My maternal grandparents were both the children of indigenious South Americans so this is somewhat personal for me. One the one hand if we contact them then we are dooming everyone in the tribe above the age of about ten to dependency for the rest of their lives. They will go from being autonomous, skilled members of a sovereign tribe to illiterate, unskilled Peruvian citizens in one fell swoop. In their world they own their land, have their own system of wealth and acheivement and customs that are tailored to their own strengths. In our world, they are penniless and barely subsist on land that is actually owned but the Peruvian government. Unless the proponents of contact are willing to provide the extensive resources they will need in order to assimilate to our way of life, I say we leave them alone. I saw alot of mention of technology and medicine and all the other comforts of modern life, but those things are not free for the taking. There are hundreds of thousands of
[+] [-] raganwald|15 years ago|reply
We should think about that when we choose how to deal with uncontacted tribes. It may be that one day another intelligence will need to decide how to deal with us, and on that day I hope we can say, "Yes, we used to have a habit of massacring technologically inferior peoples we encountered, but we grew up a little and we don't do that any more. Then we used to keep them alive but destroy their culture and identity while mouthing platitudes about how we were helping them, but we grew up a little and we don't do that any more either."
[+] [-] xenophanes|15 years ago|reply
Help is exactly what I would want from advanced alien visitors. I don't want them to respect my culture just because it is mine; I want something better for myself, not cultural relativism.
There is nothing good or enviable about uncivilized lifestyles to preserve; any actions that maintain them in that lifestyle are ensuring they literally die young, mostly of preventable causes. Their lives are short, uncomfortable and brutal. Trying to minimize contact is ensuring they do not get modern medical care and that they retain their dark ages quality (or worse) myths and prejudices.
[+] [-] StavrosK|15 years ago|reply
It sounds far-fetched, but do you think this tribe is thinking "there are other civilizations on Earth that we've never talked to, yet they're trying not to destroy us"?
[+] [-] Groxx|15 years ago|reply
The only 3rd alternative being "Now we wall them in, pretend they don't exist, and tell people not to tap on the glass"? And those really are the only options, unless you know of an approach that isn't fundamentally the same as one of "kill them", "bring them into our culture", or "prevent our culture from getting into theirs".
I'll take door number 2, thanks. And I hope anyone/thing that sees this will proceed to destroy my culture and identity to bring me closer to seeing the rest of the universe as it really is.
[+] [-] araneae|15 years ago|reply
We shouldn't be thinking about how we would want to be treated in that situation, we should think about what they want, now. And that's generally for those bulldozer things to stop mowing down their homes.
[+] [-] niqolas|15 years ago|reply
If the goal is to understand, support and/or show respect for the uncontacted tribes, I think the focus should be adjusted to: "Do unto others as they want you to do unto them".
[+] [-] alecco|15 years ago|reply
Much better than Golden Rule, IMHO.
[+] [-] jbrennan|15 years ago|reply
Obviously the tribe was aware of it, but if they've never been contacted, would they be able to even fathom what such a thing is? I'm genuinely curious because I'm also genuinely ignorant on how "uncontacted" tribes like that are and what their civilization is like.
Could anyone enlighten me? It seems like such a fascinating area of study.
[+] [-] cshenoy|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] vietor|15 years ago|reply
But my only anthropology was a few GE classes in undergrad, so maybe someone with actual knowledge can chime in?
Hopefully future history books (or niche Ph.D. theses more likely ...) won't include a section about the bloody war between the plane-ists and the aplane-ists, over the deep theological issue of gods made manifest and physically watching over you... [See discussion below, not meant as a dig about this specific video or this specific group of people]
[+] [-] bugsy|15 years ago|reply
There's a statement by a Yamomani leader on the site that uncontacted tribes should be left alone on their own lands and since governments like Peru were denying their existence, the photos will help.
http://www.survivalinternational.org/material/1157
Yanomami if you recall are a stone age people from this area who only made peaceful contact a few decades ago. They have had contact and familiarity with some of these other tribes.
The tribes in this video are protected somewhat by the Brazilian government which uses aerial visits to check on the condition of tribes and make sure that outsiders have not breeched the perimeter of the reserve.
[+] [-] goldins|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] geoffw8|15 years ago|reply
To be honest, I'm not sure I agree with what they've done. I have no proof, or evidence of anything, just a gut feel. That moment could have irreversibly changed each one of their lives - possibly for the worse.
Its all of our world, I know, but still. I mean, they're not zoo animals.
[+] [-] Devilboy|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] zachallaun|15 years ago|reply
Very few realize that there's more to protect in the Rainforest than trees.
[+] [-] Tutorialzine|15 years ago|reply
What is more troublesome, is that nobody knows how often this has happened in the past.
[+] [-] bradleyland|15 years ago|reply
Insignificant in the great scope of things, but I smirked a little.
[+] [-] donpdonp|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bsandbox|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sukuriant|15 years ago|reply
But that wasn't the thought I intended to contemplate. Some people have said that their culture is lost. Why is their culture lost? And this is terrible, but, does it matter? If their culture is full of things long since dis-proven, what has been lost? If they choose to leave their old ways upon discovering/learning (through whatever means) our ways, what does that matter? Please explain why these things are bad to me. If a people has chosen a different way of life upon experiencing it, who cares that it's gone? The anthropologists that were having fun? This desperation to keep these people isolated reminds me of another article I read on HN a while ago that discussed scientists that were very sad about the situation that polar bears and grizzlies were beginning to breed. I thought it was beautiful to see their joined species able to survive, but I can only imagine the people that wanted to keep them separate were disappointed, in part, because there wouldn't be any pure-bred polar bears anymore.
My other thought is a request to HN for this very type of article. Please, please, please, for heated debates like this with the numerous tree-like threads. Please make a way to collapse sub-threads so the train of thought that brought someone to a particular point can be clearly seen.
[+] [-] bendmorris|15 years ago|reply
"Is this an ‘undiscovered’ or ‘lost’ tribe?
No. This is empty sensationalism. It’s extremely unlikely there are any tribes whose existence is totally unknown to anyone else. The uncontacted tribe in these photos has been monitored by the Brazilian government for 20 years, and lives in a reserve set up to protect uncontacted tribes."
[+] [-] russell_h|15 years ago|reply
It raises some interesting legal questions too. In the United States for example, I believe (and I could be wrong on this) starting in 2014 we would fine these tribes for failure to purchase health insurance. To say nothing of the "Republican Form of Government" guarantee in the constitution.
[+] [-] Devilboy|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] idm|15 years ago|reply
Sure, these tribes may not have been contacted, but what mythologies have evolved to explain the strange, huge bird in the sky that circles around them from time to time?
[+] [-] m_myers|15 years ago|reply
The story goes that the Huaorani called Nate Saint's plane a "woodbee" before he landed near them. After all, it flies and it buzzes.
[+] [-] narrator|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] forensic|15 years ago|reply
http://www.slate.com/id/2240157/
[+] [-] jim_h|15 years ago|reply
This has better photos. According to NBC report in 2008, an agency has been aware of the tribe and have been tracking (and not contacting) them since 1910.
[+] [-] jim_h|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tommi|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rglullis|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] goldins|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Keyframe|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] BoppreH|15 years ago|reply
[EDIT: or maybe inter-tribal trade, as someone else mentioned]
[+] [-] Mz|15 years ago|reply
I have read some things that indicated native americans lost in part because they adopted guns and abandoned bows. They lacked the means to make or money to buy the type of oil that would work in cold weather and used lard instead, which firms up in the cold. They would keep their guns under their blankets with them to keep the lard warm enough for the guns to work. Just adopting one piece of technology did not resolve their problems and it was a technology they were ill equipped to adequately maintain.
I am reminded of a scene in "Lawrence of Arabia" where he tells the Arabs "If you take English engineers, you take English rule."
Where you have a large, "evolved" culture with a density of people, material goods, information and so on, contact with a culture that is less "dense" (in terms of numbers of people, amount of material goods, etc) tends to simply wipe it out, sometimes literally killing all members (because microbes in large communities evolve rapidly and become more virulent -- Americans who move to Europe, which is more densely populated, routinely wind up with a horrific flu shortly after moving there, far worse than the flu bugs typically caught in the U.S. This is common knowledge in the military community/among military families who have ever lived over there.).
I wish a knew a means to gently make contact and offer options. I think that would be the ideal. I have no idea if it is achievable.
[+] [-] mahmud|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] zeteo|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] megablast|15 years ago|reply
Perhaps the best advice would be to contact other tribes that have been assimilated, and see how they feel about the process. Would they go back, if they could?
[+] [-] elliottcarlson|15 years ago|reply
http://www.geekologie.com/2008/06/fake_uncontacted_amazon_tr...
[+] [-] araneae|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] goldins|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Cyranix|15 years ago|reply
Maybe I'm reading too much into this comment, but something about it seems to imply that being disconnected from the global network is a bad thing. Though I myself am a highly plugged-in urbanite, I hope that people who see this remember that living in a small group (or even alone) is just as valid as assimilating with the vast network that connects the majority.
[+] [-] radicaldreamer|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] parfe|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] necolas|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] olivercameron|15 years ago|reply
On another note, watching this video was also one of the most humbling experiences I have ever had.
[+] [-] Rariel|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mkconor|15 years ago|reply