I first read this book in the early 80's as a teenager - it was handed to me by a slightly older guru pal, who had indeed been retooling his Norton for a trip around the country, and with whom I had been hacking on the computers we found we both had purchased.
He gave it to me in response to one rambanctious outburst or other I'd had, over the subject of different cultures around different systems we were both hacking on. I'd said something like "man I hate those mainframe guys" or something. I'll never forget him looking at me, sagely, across the desk and saying "man, I've got a book you should read".
I guess he'd sensed some formative intolerance budding in my teenage mind, and intended to head it off.
Well, this book definitely set me on a path of peace and tranquility, and most of all, confidence in my own competence in the face of adversity, purely for the sake of adventure. I devoured the book in a weekend, and he and I became better friends and hackers for the fact that he dared to suggest I might ought to improve myself, just a little, through a bit of reading..
I've since seen this book recommended in many similar contexts over the decades. I believe its one of those books which, if you care enough about it, will give you a few tools for humility and confidence.
This book seems to be like an acid trip. Some portion of people come back from it saying it changed their life by teaching them something vital, which is hard to explain. Another group says it was kind of a flowery muddle.
I'm in the muddle camp but have read a lot of these threads. Like an acid trip, I definitely don't think the book has any true, applicable insight to take from it.
I took a copy with me to USAF Basic Training in 1975, where of course, I couldn't read it. Found it in the Lackland library. Kept me sane during those weeks. It still shapes my thinking today. My first bike was a 305 Scrambler, the off road version of Persig's Honda.
Many people took Pirsig's quip in the forward about the book not being factual about motorcycles too literally:
"What follows is based on actual occurrences. Although much has been changed for rhetorical purposes, it must be regarded in its essence as fact. However, it should in no way be associated with that great body of factual information relating to orthodox Zen Buddhist practice. It's not very factual on motorcycles, either."
For some reason I assumed the bike in the book was some sort of older Harley. Never figured the Honda CB77 would be suitable for 2up travel for such a long trip. I also had no idea Pirsig actually took that trip. This makes ZAMM so much more impressive.
I read it for a philosophy class in college. I still remember the moment of genuine shock when, partly though the book, I closed it and noticed "Non-Fiction" written on the spine!
there is a passage in the book where he and his son are riding uphill into a headwind in cold rain, and Pirsig goes on a riff about what a folly it was to be on a 300.
I didn't start riding street bikes until many years after I read the book, and it's been funny over the years whenever I've had one of those periods of utter exasperation and misery, the "why the hell did I decide to ride a motorcycle to the place I am right now" moments, I think about that passage and how they made it out alright. and i've only ever had modern fuel injected bikes with heated bits and waterproof stuff, hard not to admire the riders back then.
My most appreciated lasting contribution from ZAMM is the term "gumption trap". Not a month goes by without at least thinking it if not uttered aloud.
I didn't read it until my 20s after moving in with a GF and finding a paperback copy in her bookshelf having a well-worn spine. I've since decided any woman with a well-worn copy of ZAMM in her bookshelf is probably a keeper.
I recently re read it in middle age. I was less confused second time round. Having more experience with philosophy makes me more confident in my opinion that large chunks of it are nonsense. It does have some good bits though. Knowing people with mental health issues those parts certainty resonated more.
Every person has a very small set of books that may be deserving of our time for a second, third, or fourth read.
Without reference to the specific work: pick it up and see if it speaks to you still, if it doesn’t - life is short, move on.
With reference to ZAMM: if you haven’t already, you may get more out of reading the Phaedrus, Thus Spoke Zarathustra, and The Birth of Tragedy (trans. Kauffman) than a re-read of ZAMM
I listened to audio book at age 47, and really had several... moments. Yes. I think there's a lot to be gained from a re-read with some road years on you.
I think it’s the kind of book about which there are several things you could say it’s “really” about, and what you think it’s really about may vary according to circumstances. When I read it as an adult with sons, it felt to me like it was really about his relationship with his son. As such, it now feels to me so deeply sad that I can’t recommend it without qualification.
ITT: people who read the first chapter of the book commenting on how it s about motorcycle repair vs people who read the whole book telling them that it's not.
(It took me three tries to get past the first tangental monologue chapter, and I was deeply rewarded by doing so. It's a great book but not what you may expect based on the title or first chapters)
>industrialization can be off-putting to those who would pursue a life of aesthetic and artistic beauty. He advocates for balance, suggesting that one can both explore the metaphysical qualities of life and stay connected to the more grounded functions of the machines we build. The book explores the concept of “quality” as a measure of a good life.
AFAIK most people are just after money, instant gratification and egoism(1).
If the book was inspired by/based on an actual trip, then it doesn't need to be mentioned in the book, one can just check what motorcyle was used in the trip, no?
I read it just a few weeks ago because of a recommendation.
I was surprised to read that this book became/was a bestseller in the category philosophy. I think its an interesting book, but its hard to read and i'm still curious why it resonated with so many people? Or what specifically.
One thing he mentions in the book has bee then electroshock therapy which was not as sever as he described it. He did not forgot his old him.
I also had the feeling to follow his illness with the obsession about quality. But more in a way you follow a schizophrenic. It becomes very unclear to me if he was a genius or became crazy. I had a friend with schizophrenia, he was 60% smart and knew his facts and then 40% have been just crazy like he believes in a stargate and has connections to the chines government. The problem with this person was very simple: i stoppend trusting him even if he was right to some extend.
I had the same feeling with this book. There is a high chance that his career downfall happend because he was in an illusion ale state. Especially at the end when he describes teaching in one university and taking the lecture in the other. That fued was probably very one sided and he imagined it. The others probably just saw some crazy dude.
There have been thinks which resonated with me, like this logically cutting of things. The balance between western and eastern (or was it asian?) philosophy.
I also really disliked how he handled his son. He did not sound like a good father.
For what it's worth, you're not the only one with that reaction. I got onto the book after it was recommended to me as a good way to get an introduction to philosophy.
Not only was it not, but the philosophical content it did have didn't seem particularly interesting — the long deliberations on quality felt like inconsequential hair-splitting that was unlikely to any revelations of value. Afterwards, I read the Wikipedia analysis on its philosophical themes [1] and felt that it's far too charitable in attributing significant insights to Pirsig compared to the literal contents of the book.
My guess is that the novel structure of weaving together a motorcycle trip with inner monologue and personal history combined with a dash of intellectualism was very compelling to a lot of people, and that's why it's taken such an outsized position in popular literature.
(I'd love to be proven wrong on this though, so by all means tell me what I missed.)
> I had a friend with schizophrenia, he was 60% smart and knew his facts and then 40% have been just crazy like he believes in a stargate and has connections to the chines government. The problem with this person was very simple: i stoppend trusting him even if he was right to some extend.
Wow... had similar experience with HS friend - we shared an apartment together after college as well. Good guy, smart, excellent in sales and business and decent with tech. We reconnected a few months ago, and... almost the exact same thing you just mentioned above. I know something's off with him, but couldn't put my finger on it. He's saying his mom's crazy, because she's saying he's crazy. There's been a lot of problems in that family for decades it seems, but there definitely seems to be some mental illness with him now (possibly been there for decades - I hadn't really talked to him much in probably 15 years after I left the state). Very sad, and I don't think there's anything I can do about it.
It's sad that your comment is the top one on a post where the book is clearly appreciated enough that the motorcycle owned by the author is added to the Smithsonian!
Maybe instead of creating an account just to post your lukewarm question you could have tried doing some searches about why the book is appreciated or start re-reading it. Or maybe wait a few years.
I too thought this an original application of the term but Merriam Webster and Wikipedia both list it, although neither cites reference material.
The only examples I could find in the wild were parts of legal definitions (chiefly "motor-driven cycles") and entity names ("Cycle World Magazine", "Pete's Cycles", etc). There are also a few instances of "cycle racing" refering to the human-powered version, yet I get the feeling this is a use that's most popular with journalists who are not familiar with the culture or lingo of bicycle enthusiasts. The use of noun-cycle does not seem more prevalent in other locales like GB (motor bike or moto being more prevalent across the pond).
In short I would conclude that cycle as a noun has a couple very narrow use cases in modern English, and the Smithsonian needs better editing.
Why is this book mentioned so often here? I know nothing about it but my first thought is that motorcycles and the people who love them have zero appeal to tech / startup people.
It was a popular book that has many dimensions. The subtitle "An Inquiry Into Values" hints at Pirsig's core thrust: a philosophical exploration of what we call "quality". The title and Zen references made for me, a techie-nerd, the concept of Zen very concrete and my personal Zen tagline, "mindfulness through mastery, mastery through mindfulness" applies to most things I care about. The book was also my gateway to Plato and ancient Greek philosophy.
It's not touchy feely. Pirsig is a scientist and technologist exploring Zen and quality. It is the best example of what John Brockman calls "The Third Culture" in reference to C.P. Snow's famous essay.
There may not be much overlap with the tech-bro/silicon valley (the TV show) folks, but there is a huge amount of overlap when it comes to "hackers" (in the sense that "Hacker News" uses the term).
It's also a lot less about actual motorcycles than the title would imply.
Pirsig figured it out. He didn't have a perfect way to pass on the ideas, but he made a definite advance in metaphysics and ethics, and we're still chewing on his insights today.
Pirsig wrote only two books, and this, the first book, is the more important of the two to the typical layperson.
[+] [-] fit2rule|6 years ago|reply
He gave it to me in response to one rambanctious outburst or other I'd had, over the subject of different cultures around different systems we were both hacking on. I'd said something like "man I hate those mainframe guys" or something. I'll never forget him looking at me, sagely, across the desk and saying "man, I've got a book you should read".
I guess he'd sensed some formative intolerance budding in my teenage mind, and intended to head it off.
Well, this book definitely set me on a path of peace and tranquility, and most of all, confidence in my own competence in the face of adversity, purely for the sake of adventure. I devoured the book in a weekend, and he and I became better friends and hackers for the fact that he dared to suggest I might ought to improve myself, just a little, through a bit of reading..
I've since seen this book recommended in many similar contexts over the decades. I believe its one of those books which, if you care enough about it, will give you a few tools for humility and confidence.
[+] [-] cm2012|6 years ago|reply
I'm in the muddle camp but have read a lot of these threads. Like an acid trip, I definitely don't think the book has any true, applicable insight to take from it.
[+] [-] krelian|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] intpete|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sradman|6 years ago|reply
http://www.zenandnow.org/
Many people took Pirsig's quip in the forward about the book not being factual about motorcycles too literally:
"What follows is based on actual occurrences. Although much has been changed for rhetorical purposes, it must be regarded in its essence as fact. However, it should in no way be associated with that great body of factual information relating to orthodox Zen Buddhist practice. It's not very factual on motorcycles, either."
[+] [-] IgorPartola|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] chris_st|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gooseyard|6 years ago|reply
I didn't start riding street bikes until many years after I read the book, and it's been funny over the years whenever I've had one of those periods of utter exasperation and misery, the "why the hell did I decide to ride a motorcycle to the place I am right now" moments, I think about that passage and how they made it out alright. and i've only ever had modern fuel injected bikes with heated bits and waterproof stuff, hard not to admire the riders back then.
[+] [-] solson4|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] newnewpdro|6 years ago|reply
I didn't read it until my 20s after moving in with a GF and finding a paperback copy in her bookshelf having a well-worn spine. I've since decided any woman with a well-worn copy of ZAMM in her bookshelf is probably a keeper.
[+] [-] mrfusion|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sideshowb|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] 0kl|6 years ago|reply
Without reference to the specific work: pick it up and see if it speaks to you still, if it doesn’t - life is short, move on.
With reference to ZAMM: if you haven’t already, you may get more out of reading the Phaedrus, Thus Spoke Zarathustra, and The Birth of Tragedy (trans. Kauffman) than a re-read of ZAMM
[+] [-] rchase|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] digibri|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gglitch|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] psim1|6 years ago|reply
As a 40 year old I was glad to pick up the book and confirm that my impression as a freshman was correct.
[+] [-] downerending|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tekstar|6 years ago|reply
(It took me three tries to get past the first tangental monologue chapter, and I was deeply rewarded by doing so. It's a great book but not what you may expect based on the title or first chapters)
[+] [-] sharkweek|6 years ago|reply
If someone offered me one million dollars to clearly explain the book to them right now, I wouldn’t be able to do it.
[+] [-] thrav|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mauvehaus|6 years ago|reply
https://www.reddit.com/r/CalamariRaceTeam/comments/5bij42/ze...
Yeah, I know, allegedly written by "Dave Harleyson". Count me among the skeptical.
[+] [-] wallace_f|6 years ago|reply
AFAIK most people are just after money, instant gratification and egoism(1).
1 - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happiness_economics Most research on happiness suggests it's linked to socioeconomic status relative to your peers, not absolute socioeconomic status.
[+] [-] callesgg|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] strathmeyer|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] readingnews|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nickbauman|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sjburt|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] coldtea|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] taneq|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] inimino|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] skilesare|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] hulano|6 years ago|reply
I was surprised to read that this book became/was a bestseller in the category philosophy. I think its an interesting book, but its hard to read and i'm still curious why it resonated with so many people? Or what specifically.
One thing he mentions in the book has bee then electroshock therapy which was not as sever as he described it. He did not forgot his old him.
I also had the feeling to follow his illness with the obsession about quality. But more in a way you follow a schizophrenic. It becomes very unclear to me if he was a genius or became crazy. I had a friend with schizophrenia, he was 60% smart and knew his facts and then 40% have been just crazy like he believes in a stargate and has connections to the chines government. The problem with this person was very simple: i stoppend trusting him even if he was right to some extend.
I had the same feeling with this book. There is a high chance that his career downfall happend because he was in an illusion ale state. Especially at the end when he describes teaching in one university and taking the lecture in the other. That fued was probably very one sided and he imagined it. The others probably just saw some crazy dude.
There have been thinks which resonated with me, like this logically cutting of things. The balance between western and eastern (or was it asian?) philosophy.
I also really disliked how he handled his son. He did not sound like a good father.
Im very unsure what i took from this book.
[+] [-] brandur|6 years ago|reply
Not only was it not, but the philosophical content it did have didn't seem particularly interesting — the long deliberations on quality felt like inconsequential hair-splitting that was unlikely to any revelations of value. Afterwards, I read the Wikipedia analysis on its philosophical themes [1] and felt that it's far too charitable in attributing significant insights to Pirsig compared to the literal contents of the book.
My guess is that the novel structure of weaving together a motorcycle trip with inner monologue and personal history combined with a dash of intellectualism was very compelling to a lot of people, and that's why it's taken such an outsized position in popular literature.
(I'd love to be proven wrong on this though, so by all means tell me what I missed.)
---
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zen_and_the_Art_of_Motorcycle_...
[+] [-] lowercased|6 years ago|reply
Wow... had similar experience with HS friend - we shared an apartment together after college as well. Good guy, smart, excellent in sales and business and decent with tech. We reconnected a few months ago, and... almost the exact same thing you just mentioned above. I know something's off with him, but couldn't put my finger on it. He's saying his mom's crazy, because she's saying he's crazy. There's been a lot of problems in that family for decades it seems, but there definitely seems to be some mental illness with him now (possibly been there for decades - I hadn't really talked to him much in probably 15 years after I left the state). Very sad, and I don't think there's anything I can do about it.
[+] [-] criddell|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] fierarul|6 years ago|reply
Maybe instead of creating an account just to post your lukewarm question you could have tried doing some searches about why the book is appreciated or start re-reading it. Or maybe wait a few years.
[+] [-] 0898|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bagacrap|6 years ago|reply
The only examples I could find in the wild were parts of legal definitions (chiefly "motor-driven cycles") and entity names ("Cycle World Magazine", "Pete's Cycles", etc). There are also a few instances of "cycle racing" refering to the human-powered version, yet I get the feeling this is a use that's most popular with journalists who are not familiar with the culture or lingo of bicycle enthusiasts. The use of noun-cycle does not seem more prevalent in other locales like GB (motor bike or moto being more prevalent across the pond).
In short I would conclude that cycle as a noun has a couple very narrow use cases in modern English, and the Smithsonian needs better editing.
[+] [-] timwaagh|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] timwaagh|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] RivieraKid|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sradman|6 years ago|reply
It's not touchy feely. Pirsig is a scientist and technologist exploring Zen and quality. It is the best example of what John Brockman calls "The Third Culture" in reference to C.P. Snow's famous essay.
[+] [-] JshWright|6 years ago|reply
It's also a lot less about actual motorcycles than the title would imply.
[+] [-] lidHanteyk|6 years ago|reply
Pirsig wrote only two books, and this, the first book, is the more important of the two to the typical layperson.
[+] [-] GuyPostington|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ska|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] callesgg|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] daralthus|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] seriesf|6 years ago|reply