"Many stereotypies can be induced by confinement; for example, cats pace in zoo cages.[11] Pregnant sows whose feed is restricted bite at their stalls' bars and chew without anything in their mouths.[12] In laboratory rats and mice, grooming is the most common activity other than sleep, and grooming stereotypies have been used to investigate several animal models of anxiety and depression.[13]
Examples of stereotypical behaviours include pacing, rocking, swimming in circles, excessive sleeping, self-mutilation (including feather picking and excessive grooming), and mouthing cage bars."
The left to right swinging is the textbook example of animals undergoing prolonged extreme stress and insufficient stimulation. It’s probably the most recognizable sign.
It’s baffling that any researcher was honestly thinking otherwise.
"researchers played music to a group of chimps (three adult males and four females) and found that all of the chimps responded to the music by moving in dance-like ways—though the degree to which they danced varied greatly between them. [...] the chimps had different moves."
So, we have 7 chimps that responded to an unusual sound (we really don't want to call that danceable music) from a source unknown to them in 7 different ways, and we have n researchers that were set out to interpret that as dance? And these researchers can make a living out of that and get published?
p.s. I skimmed through the original article. It looks like science and this might even be a standard approach in this field (I don't know) but ... I cannot describe what I think of it.
No kidding. This is a quintessential example of what is wrong in research. If you were to just read the paper you’d definitely come to the conclusion that the researchers want to make—that monkeys dance much like we do. Then you go and watch the video and find their conclusion...biased at the least.
The instances in which this type of tomfoolery becomes truly malignant are the ones in which it’s less obvious. I.e researchers have hidden or hashed the original data and then published something that we can’t unscramble.
I’m literally expecting to hear “everybody dance now” and end up hearing that charade instead. Lol.
> It looks like science and this might even be a standard approach in this field
One of them. I don't see anything wrong with it. Science works that way: you start with informal observation, if you see something curious enough, you move to formalizing observation. You search for operational definition of "dancing". After that you could watch a little more and to test your definition and to find other variables you need to control in an experiment. And only then you probably can stage an experiment, controlling everything that needs to be controlled, using "blind" observers having instructions on what to observe and how to measure, but not knowing goals of observation.
It is very important to know how to watch Nature, how to see something new and do not miss it. Your proposed idea "to avoid known words and to describe in terms of observed behavior" wouldn't work for this task. You would drown in describing words and you drown your readers. And probably no one would see few important observations in a heap of unimportant.
The funny thing -- scientists do not what dance is. Even in people we do not know what dance is. How we could call something "the dance" if we do not know what dance is? Should we believe a person when she says she was dancing? Or maybe we should believe our perception which has its ways to distinguish dance from not dance? I think, that it is the case when an informal perception based approach is the best. Just because we have no satisfying formal definition of a dance.
There is a genre of music called "noise", which is much like what the term sounds like.
I remember coming home from a noise concert with a friend one day, and going down in to the subway, where there was a construction worker hammering away with a jackhammer. My friend and I found ourselves really enjoying it, and appreciatively nodded our heads to the beat.
Lots of experimental and avant garde music is also frequently described as "noise" to people who aren't fans of it. Back at the dawn of the rock-and-roll genre and of jazz, people to whom these were new types of music also frequently characterized them as "just noise". I've heard the "that's not music" accusation being thrown at heavy metal and dissonant traditional Japanese music.
That's not to say that chimpanzees must be fans of what was played to them, but the realm of music is much wider than most people that listen only to mainstream music appreciate.
What is truly bizarre is how rare rhythmic entrainment seems to be [1]. Powered oscillators naturally entrain to one another, like the synchronization of metronomes. Since neurons are powered oscillators, it would seem that even simple animals would be able to move to a beat.
Yet, we are unable to train mice, birds or primates to tap out the beat to a song!
My theory is that all animals have extensive defense mechanisms to prevent motor entrainment to external stimuli, since that would make one very vulnerable. Therefore, they only exhibit entrainment during ritualized mating, etc.
Humans have evolved to let down our defenses, on occasion, to support social entrainment. Yet, it is still really hard to dance or appreciate music when we are uncomfortable or stressed.
One test of this theory would involve giving animals drugs like mdma to see if it helps them loosen up and appreciate the beat. It works with people, after all. But I suppose proposals like that would be taboo science. Or, perhaps it would be unethical to give chimps mdma?
>>> My theory is that all animals have extensive defense mechanisms to prevent motor entrainment to external stimuli, since that would make one very vulnerable. Therefore, they only exhibit entrainment during ritualized mating, etc.
Wow, seems very reasonable! It made mi think about it in a bit different way: as other animals are thought as "following instinct" and "closer to nature" maybe this inhibition systems are way more advanced in humans than in other animals. It would make explaining dance harder, but would fit great to big literary topos "men vs nature".
Is it completely your theory or was it inspired by something that you could recommend?
Possibly. I can't find the write-up of this, but there's a nice idea that this may have another purpose: Dancing as a group might be a way to fool savannah predators that your tribe is one large animal, not individual hairless tasty meals.
I spent a lot of time with Chimps in West Africa, getting to play with, carry and interact with them a couple of different times [1]
Sitting with a fully-grown chimp on your lap with her face inches from yours while she grooms your beard is a very, very special experience. It's impossible to spent more than 10 minutes with them and not clearly see they are us and we are them. Their facial expressions, they happiness, their playfulness, their grief. Everything about them is like looking in a mirror, or watching a ~5 year old child play.
Absolutely amazing.
I have no doubt they would dance to music, and do a lot more things that show intelligence and higher thinking.
I am certain we are them. Emotions and feelings are entirely an animal trait in us.
Whether they are us is a more complicated question. What are their language and reasoning abilities? Apparently no animals ask questions, even after being “asked”. Seems that questioning and reasoning is what makes us human (sapient).
I’m pointing this out because most people would say that it’s the emotions and feelings that distinguish us. That’s not the case.
I watched some of your other videos, I'm curious what drew you to hacker news (I see the account is since 2011 and you started your road trips in 2009), were you a programmer before starting your travels? Or just interested in tech?
I'm going to check out your book. as the hardcore road trip thing is something I was really close to doing at one point in my life. Although in terms of pure perspective I'd probably take less of a 'chimps are just like us' view of it, which is just my more skeptical scientific but also cynical nature - but also because I've found this is a common tendency in humans to find such patterns which don't really fit as cleanly as they seem (upon closer analysis).
But I haven't played with chimps in person so I should probably not talk without experiencing it.
I've heard that adult chimps get strong enough to rip chunks of flesh off with their hands. If this is accurate, how old can a chimp get before roughhousing with them like you do with that baby chimp is totally out of the question?Are the adult chimps you've interacted with friendly enough to reliably groom human beards without issue, or is it more of a situation where the humans keep track of which chimps they need to steer clear of?
I haven't gone through all the research to fully understand the argument, but I watched the videos. Not convincing at all.
If I were to make this claim, I'd show a chimpanzee at rest in the video, without any music, then start the music. And actual music, not this loud machinery that would make me sway left and right due to stress.
Edit: not saying that chimps don't dance. Just that this is a very unusual setting.
The cages these animals are in looks horrendous and I think that any result that comes forward from such an experiment is biased at the very least. With the current state of technologyouldnt it be more possible to set up these experiments in their natural habitat? I'm thinking about a large amount of cameras that track the animals. At least the animals have a better habitat to live in because this view is abhorrent, and so far I've het to see an animal experimention plant that has a beter environment for animals.
And in another light, how valuable is this kind of research where an extremely intelligent animal is out in solitary confinement and is given tests? There is so much information lost in the process due to interpretation and external factors. Let alone the hilariously low N size.
Also horses, elephants and a large swath or other animals have been shown to appreciate music. I don't even get why this party got funded to study an even higher echelon animal of which it is very reasonable to assume it is able to dance.
Honestly the choice of music could make this a response to an unusual stressor, but an expert could probably infer from posture and facial expression whether they are in distress.
upon hearing some very rhythmic joyfull children music our dog when he was younger would jump on his feet and start kind of happily bouncing around, not just like running or jumping, more like rhythmically walking and turning while swinging body (very profoundly shifting weight between the paws of different sides) from side to side - it was as close to dancing as i suppose a dog untrained to dance can get, reminded a lot how very young children do it.
This is kinda disturbing. Animal experimentation that saves lives is being disrupted while this kind of thing, with no observable value, and clear detriment to the animal, persists?
Sure, I am curious about animals and music, but this just seems to misrepresent both.
Someone please explan how I am wrong and overreacting, since that is usually my rally cry in comments.
Sometimes science involves learning things for which an immediate economic benefit is not apparent. It could very well be that a decade or two from now, our knowledge that animals brains universally react to rhythms is a useful datum in cracking some critical piece of knowledge about how brains work and, potentially, how to fix them. Or, alternately, it could turn out to be practically worthless. But we don't know, and knowing more things is almost always not worse than knowing fewer things.
Also, your argument assumes a lot of things: 1.) animal experimentation is being disrupted, 2.) playing music for chimps is clearly detrimental to them, and 3.) the resources that went into this study (these particular chimps, these researchers, and their funding) could have gone into some specific but unidentified better study which did have an pre-observable value. If all of those things are true, which has definitely not been established, than I would grant that science is likely not being conducted in a way that is maximally efficient, but unless there's some hugely valuable experiment that is being overlooked for this, I don't see why you're disturbed.
What if understanding innate brain response to music helps inform brain science and cognition and in turn leads to better understanding of e.g. locked-in or coma patients?
What if dancing helps improve the lives of animals held for scientific experimentation?
[+] [-] buss|6 years ago|reply
FTA:
"Many stereotypies can be induced by confinement; for example, cats pace in zoo cages.[11] Pregnant sows whose feed is restricted bite at their stalls' bars and chew without anything in their mouths.[12] In laboratory rats and mice, grooming is the most common activity other than sleep, and grooming stereotypies have been used to investigate several animal models of anxiety and depression.[13]
Examples of stereotypical behaviours include pacing, rocking, swimming in circles, excessive sleeping, self-mutilation (including feather picking and excessive grooming), and mouthing cage bars."
[+] [-] fiblye|6 years ago|reply
It’s baffling that any researcher was honestly thinking otherwise.
[+] [-] beebmam|6 years ago|reply
Some things aren't worth knowing, considering the suffering it would take to learn.
[+] [-] stewbrew|6 years ago|reply
So, we have 7 chimps that responded to an unusual sound (we really don't want to call that danceable music) from a source unknown to them in 7 different ways, and we have n researchers that were set out to interpret that as dance? And these researchers can make a living out of that and get published?
p.s. I skimmed through the original article. It looks like science and this might even be a standard approach in this field (I don't know) but ... I cannot describe what I think of it.
[+] [-] nikkwong|6 years ago|reply
The instances in which this type of tomfoolery becomes truly malignant are the ones in which it’s less obvious. I.e researchers have hidden or hashed the original data and then published something that we can’t unscramble.
I’m literally expecting to hear “everybody dance now” and end up hearing that charade instead. Lol.
[+] [-] ordu|6 years ago|reply
One of them. I don't see anything wrong with it. Science works that way: you start with informal observation, if you see something curious enough, you move to formalizing observation. You search for operational definition of "dancing". After that you could watch a little more and to test your definition and to find other variables you need to control in an experiment. And only then you probably can stage an experiment, controlling everything that needs to be controlled, using "blind" observers having instructions on what to observe and how to measure, but not knowing goals of observation.
It is very important to know how to watch Nature, how to see something new and do not miss it. Your proposed idea "to avoid known words and to describe in terms of observed behavior" wouldn't work for this task. You would drown in describing words and you drown your readers. And probably no one would see few important observations in a heap of unimportant.
The funny thing -- scientists do not what dance is. Even in people we do not know what dance is. How we could call something "the dance" if we do not know what dance is? Should we believe a person when she says she was dancing? Or maybe we should believe our perception which has its ways to distinguish dance from not dance? I think, that it is the case when an informal perception based approach is the best. Just because we have no satisfying formal definition of a dance.
[+] [-] summm|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pmoriarty|6 years ago|reply
I remember coming home from a noise concert with a friend one day, and going down in to the subway, where there was a construction worker hammering away with a jackhammer. My friend and I found ourselves really enjoying it, and appreciatively nodded our heads to the beat.
Lots of experimental and avant garde music is also frequently described as "noise" to people who aren't fans of it. Back at the dawn of the rock-and-roll genre and of jazz, people to whom these were new types of music also frequently characterized them as "just noise". I've heard the "that's not music" accusation being thrown at heavy metal and dissonant traditional Japanese music.
That's not to say that chimpanzees must be fans of what was played to them, but the realm of music is much wider than most people that listen only to mainstream music appreciate.
[+] [-] a3n|6 years ago|reply
But, maybe that's not a sign of stress in chimps.
[+] [-] dr_dshiv|6 years ago|reply
Yet, we are unable to train mice, birds or primates to tap out the beat to a song!
My theory is that all animals have extensive defense mechanisms to prevent motor entrainment to external stimuli, since that would make one very vulnerable. Therefore, they only exhibit entrainment during ritualized mating, etc.
Humans have evolved to let down our defenses, on occasion, to support social entrainment. Yet, it is still really hard to dance or appreciate music when we are uncomfortable or stressed.
One test of this theory would involve giving animals drugs like mdma to see if it helps them loosen up and appreciate the beat. It works with people, after all. But I suppose proposals like that would be taboo science. Or, perhaps it would be unethical to give chimps mdma?
[1] https://link.springer.com/article/10.3758/s13423-016-1013-x
[+] [-] r34|6 years ago|reply
Wow, seems very reasonable! It made mi think about it in a bit different way: as other animals are thought as "following instinct" and "closer to nature" maybe this inhibition systems are way more advanced in humans than in other animals. It would make explaining dance harder, but would fit great to big literary topos "men vs nature".
Is it completely your theory or was it inspired by something that you could recommend?
[+] [-] improbable22|6 years ago|reply
Possibly. I can't find the write-up of this, but there's a nice idea that this may have another purpose: Dancing as a group might be a way to fool savannah predators that your tribe is one large animal, not individual hairless tasty meals.
[+] [-] malandrew|6 years ago|reply
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dancing_plague_of_1518
[+] [-] grecy|6 years ago|reply
Sitting with a fully-grown chimp on your lap with her face inches from yours while she grooms your beard is a very, very special experience. It's impossible to spent more than 10 minutes with them and not clearly see they are us and we are them. Their facial expressions, they happiness, their playfulness, their grief. Everything about them is like looking in a mirror, or watching a ~5 year old child play.
Absolutely amazing.
I have no doubt they would dance to music, and do a lot more things that show intelligence and higher thinking.
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mfdo3s8tPUk
[+] [-] xixixao|6 years ago|reply
Whether they are us is a more complicated question. What are their language and reasoning abilities? Apparently no animals ask questions, even after being “asked”. Seems that questioning and reasoning is what makes us human (sapient).
I’m pointing this out because most people would say that it’s the emotions and feelings that distinguish us. That’s not the case.
[+] [-] dmix|6 years ago|reply
I'm going to check out your book. as the hardcore road trip thing is something I was really close to doing at one point in my life. Although in terms of pure perspective I'd probably take less of a 'chimps are just like us' view of it, which is just my more skeptical scientific but also cynical nature - but also because I've found this is a common tendency in humans to find such patterns which don't really fit as cleanly as they seem (upon closer analysis).
But I haven't played with chimps in person so I should probably not talk without experiencing it.
[+] [-] blotter_paper|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] vimy|6 years ago|reply
You see the similarities even more clearly in bonobos.
[+] [-] firefoxd|6 years ago|reply
If I were to make this claim, I'd show a chimpanzee at rest in the video, without any music, then start the music. And actual music, not this loud machinery that would make me sway left and right due to stress.
Edit: not saying that chimps don't dance. Just that this is a very unusual setting.
[+] [-] hetspookjee|6 years ago|reply
And in another light, how valuable is this kind of research where an extremely intelligent animal is out in solitary confinement and is given tests? There is so much information lost in the process due to interpretation and external factors. Let alone the hilariously low N size.
Also horses, elephants and a large swath or other animals have been shown to appreciate music. I don't even get why this party got funded to study an even higher echelon animal of which it is very reasonable to assume it is able to dance.
[+] [-] GrumpyNl|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] allovernow|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] trhway|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] OrgNet|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] m463|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] amelius|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] stephc_int13|6 years ago|reply
I wouldn't be surprised if they used the same tracks in Guantanamo...
[+] [-] dx7tnt|6 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] mrtweetyhack|6 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] Jamwinner|6 years ago|reply
Sure, I am curious about animals and music, but this just seems to misrepresent both.
Someone please explan how I am wrong and overreacting, since that is usually my rally cry in comments.
[+] [-] CobrastanJorji|6 years ago|reply
Also, your argument assumes a lot of things: 1.) animal experimentation is being disrupted, 2.) playing music for chimps is clearly detrimental to them, and 3.) the resources that went into this study (these particular chimps, these researchers, and their funding) could have gone into some specific but unidentified better study which did have an pre-observable value. If all of those things are true, which has definitely not been established, than I would grant that science is likely not being conducted in a way that is maximally efficient, but unless there's some hugely valuable experiment that is being overlooked for this, I don't see why you're disturbed.
[+] [-] ggm|6 years ago|reply
What if dancing helps improve the lives of animals held for scientific experimentation?