> Because I love how the internet has made it possible for anyone to get successful, anywhere. I love the idea of living in the middle of nowhere, surrounded by nature, yet being connected to the world.
> But still, when I look at the facts, it’s impossible to deny. Living in the big city, and being where everything is happening, will help your career the most. Being anywhere else won’t hurt you, but it won’t help.
Though I'm in NYC right now, I plan to leave eventually. Ideally I think I'd want a remote cabin in Montana with a high speed internet connection. Wake up, go for a 2 hour hike, code a few hours, watch the sunset, read, sleep. Sounds like some sort of paradise.
Realistically though I'll probably end up somewhere closer to civilization.
But it's a shame remote work isn't quite at that level to completely make physical location irrelevant. Maybe someday.
I started working remote from a farm at the foot of the Rockies 4 years ago and never looked back. During this time, I've watched the number of remote companies rise considerably.
Internet was expensive at first, but I could expense it so I didn't care. Now that Starlink is on the way, it really won't matter anymore.
The key is to work at a company that is REMOTE FIRST. If the remote team is in the minority, then you'll always be left out of the important discussions and decisions, and, ultimately, promotions.
Yes, it's a bit of a pain getting out to other places. But I'm perfectly happy to spend 90% of my time in nature, so I consider it an acceptable trade to have extra hassle 10% of the time.
PS: Think twice about an RV. I tried that route, and it's a big hassle having to move around all the time (because of California's tenancy laws, for example), it's a pain to find a place to park the thing, propane isn't always conveniently available, repairs are a pain, black/grey water is a pain, and a lot of places just aren't RV friendly. Also, RV parks just generally suck and have TERRIBLE wifi. If you DO go this route, get a 5th wheel so that you get the extra headroom, easier turns (IMPORTANT), and can drive the pickup to the store. You DON'T want to drive a 30ft coach around town!
Also, get an RV with one popout (more is just asking for shit to break), the kitchen in the back (otherwise it's always in the way), and NO island (it just gets in the way).
Also, don't go lower than a half-ton for your pulling vehicle. You'll thank me on the hills.
> But it's a shame remote work isn't quite at that level to completely make physical location irrelevant. Maybe someday
A lot of the big decisions happen between meetings in the corridors.
Working at a satellite location, despite being onsite, is also considered harmful to your career.
It is the fact that the people who make decisions are not physically near enough for everything that happens between the bits of work. Those are the things that have historically mattered far more in career growth.
It's a nice idea, and I've thought along the same lines, but having spent some time away from large cities, I've come to think that it would be really boring to be tied down to one cabin in the middle of one nowhere.
There's just so much nature, and it's so varied in it's majesty. You can quickly drive to plenty of remote outdoor areas from NYC; most of New York is basically a huge forest. But you can't drive to see the Grand Canyon without making a big time commitment, much less places on other continents.
Unfortunately, even big RVs have their share of problems, and there is no community to be found on the road. I don't have any good answers, and I don't relish the thought of returning to a large city, but I'm not sure that moving away from them would be the panacea that many people seem to imagine it would be.
It's interesting. I never really wanted to live in NYC until I ended up here and now after 20 years I am absolutely never going for leave. I'm raising my kids here. Especially since it means I never have to drive.
> it's a shame remote work isn't quite at that level to completely make physical location irrelevant. Maybe someday.
I worked remotely at Blackbird (https://blackbird.us/) and you could totally do this as a software engineer. It's great. Your can live in a cool place and the only thing you really need is a high speed internet connection.
While I’m supportive of working remotely, I’m somewhat uncomfortable with the idea of making physical location irrelevant.
If/when we get there it will also imply abstracting away the physical interaction between people. This might have unwanted social implications, read people losing many important social skills.
You don't get a call saying "hi xxxx we need a guitarist for seals new album can you be at Abbey Road this afternoon" if your living in a cabin in Montana.
Btw I used to work with a polymath developer who had a Phd in music and also had been a side musician on top 40 hits.
I’m always very conscious of the selection bias of the people writing these types of articles. They tend to have succeeded in a major city, but as the author says:
> “It’s not casual. It’s not a place for a comfortable work/life balance. It’s fueled by ambition. People go go go.”
What of all those, and they will likely be most people, that don’t thrive in that environment. Are they getting a net benefit moving to a major metro? I really don’t know the answer there. The statistics are messy. All other things being equal, those of my friends that moved back to my hometown after college do not seem less happy or satisfied with their lives than those who went to major metros.
As a software developer who has lived in London for a couple of years, this didn't work for me. London was great for having fun but in terms of career it wasn't very interesting. The work atmosphere wasn't great and the problems weren't very interesting. I've found better opportunities in medium-sized cities. Just a personal experience, of course.
A year ago, I moved to the suburbs of Saigon from NY to work remotely. My cost of living is 1000usd</month + rent, utilities, food, motorbike/gas, etc. While my savings have improved, I do miss socializing with other developers which in turn creates future opportunities. The isolation is great if you're looking to work in a distraction free environment and relax.
I'm a bit torn as I consider myself a mid-level developer at 7 years of experience. At the moment, I'm looking to relocate anywhere to be surrounded with senior engineers who can push me to the next level.
With that being said, I'll probably go back to the remote life when I feel more comfortable with my skills.
I work 90% remote at the moment, and the only thing stopping me from moving to a smaller town is the fear of not having a community or friends nearby.
It’s so important to have in person human contact, especially with remote work, that Montana or wherever will always be a dream. Would love some ideas on how to solve this if anyone has any!
>I work 90% remote at the moment, and the only thing stopping me from moving to a smaller town is the fear of not having a community or friends nearby.
OTOH, you can have more community and more friends nearby in a smaller town -- and actually get to see them and do things with them.
But you need to take the time to make friends with those people. Still I know several people who moved to a small town, small island even, and made great friends with the local community, even people from an entirely different country. YMMV.
My take on this is that the network effects of living in a big city vs. small town actually increased post-internet. Ie. the value proposition of the physical city network is even greater with internet.
One obvious example is on demand food delivery. In a small town you still just get one or two places delivering food, the internet cannot solve that.
But in a city you’re immediately connected to every provider in your radius. It was technically true before but required walking around, local knowledge etc. The internet removed that upfront investment and made the physical network available to anyone immediately.
yeah, I don't think it's new. But I think we can work remotely nowadays (especially for software developers). I post it here because I want to know is it still appropriate for now?
Paul Graham had it right in his "Cities and Ambition" note:
Does anyone who wants to do great work have to live in a great city? No; all great cities inspire some sort of ambition, but they aren't the only places that do. For some kinds of work, all you need is a handful of talented colleagues.
You don't have to live in a great city your whole life to benefit from it. The critical years seem to be the early and middle ones of your career. Clearly you don't have to grow up in a great city. Nor does it seem to matter if you go to college in one.
The Impressionists show the typical pattern: they were born all over France (Pissarro was born in the Carribbean) and died all over France, but what defined them were the years they spent together in Paris.
>But still, when I look at the facts, it’s impossible to deny. Living in the big city, and being where everything is happening, will help your career the most.
Will it help your happiness? Will your goals and career benefit humanity one iota?
Does anyone else read these on impulse, then remember they don't want to make it big?
I want to make it to Comfortable, by working on interesting but non-stressful problems, reach FI at forty, then enjoy my family and work at hobby research.
I recently accept a job on a big city. I'm excited to see what happens next. I've worked on big cities before, but mostly remote. I only went to the company once every 3 months. This time I'm actually moving.
For tech, that list of cities could be changed drastically (Dublin, Berlin, Stockholm and Tel Aviv are major tech centers, for example) but the gist of it is very true.
Derek Sivers is the founder of CD Baby which is one of the largest music licensing companies. He is talking about big cities in the context of his industry which is Music and Entertainment.
I think in terms of learning it's true up to a point. I don't think it makes sense to move to a big city for financial reasons though.
You'd think it creates a competitive environment where the best talent rises to the top but this is not the case.
What I've found instead is that the environment is competitive to the point that everyone is focused on politics and social manipulation; for example trying to claim credit for other peoples' work to get promoted or making friends with the founders. Top level managers are not capable of identifying talent and seeing though all the political BS; they fall for it over and over again but it doesn't matter because they're friends with millionaire investors so they can keep raising money even after their company fails.
It feels like behind every powerful person in a position of power, there is either a rich friend or a rich daddy.
That's why I'm into blockchain now, I'm tired of this nepotism. I want to participate in creating a new industry in which human nature can be factored out as much as possible.
I don't really see the connection between being into "blockchain", and avoiding nepotism.
Also, the issues you mention (being friends with millionaire investors, etc) might be very specific to Silicon Valley / San Francisco, and less about other "alpha" places?
Sorry, but nepotism, politics and connections are even more important in the cryptocurrency/blockchain industry than in traditional tech or even finance. In crypto/blockchain it's ALL about who you know. And the lack of good regulation means that good contacts can get your firm advantages that would literally be illegal in the traditional finance world. I guess the only real distinction is that the industry is spread out more and not centered in one or two cities.
He’s right: big cities are not good places for a nice work/life balance and a nice lifestyle. They are places for serious people. But I don’t like being serious, and I don’t like working out of balance with the rest of my life.
jborichevskiy|6 years ago
> So why do I hate to admit this?
> Because I love how the internet has made it possible for anyone to get successful, anywhere. I love the idea of living in the middle of nowhere, surrounded by nature, yet being connected to the world.
> But still, when I look at the facts, it’s impossible to deny. Living in the big city, and being where everything is happening, will help your career the most. Being anywhere else won’t hurt you, but it won’t help.
Though I'm in NYC right now, I plan to leave eventually. Ideally I think I'd want a remote cabin in Montana with a high speed internet connection. Wake up, go for a 2 hour hike, code a few hours, watch the sunset, read, sleep. Sounds like some sort of paradise.
Realistically though I'll probably end up somewhere closer to civilization.
But it's a shame remote work isn't quite at that level to completely make physical location irrelevant. Maybe someday.
kstenerud|6 years ago
Internet was expensive at first, but I could expense it so I didn't care. Now that Starlink is on the way, it really won't matter anymore.
The key is to work at a company that is REMOTE FIRST. If the remote team is in the minority, then you'll always be left out of the important discussions and decisions, and, ultimately, promotions.
Yes, it's a bit of a pain getting out to other places. But I'm perfectly happy to spend 90% of my time in nature, so I consider it an acceptable trade to have extra hassle 10% of the time.
PS: Think twice about an RV. I tried that route, and it's a big hassle having to move around all the time (because of California's tenancy laws, for example), it's a pain to find a place to park the thing, propane isn't always conveniently available, repairs are a pain, black/grey water is a pain, and a lot of places just aren't RV friendly. Also, RV parks just generally suck and have TERRIBLE wifi. If you DO go this route, get a 5th wheel so that you get the extra headroom, easier turns (IMPORTANT), and can drive the pickup to the store. You DON'T want to drive a 30ft coach around town!
Also, get an RV with one popout (more is just asking for shit to break), the kitchen in the back (otherwise it's always in the way), and NO island (it just gets in the way).
Also, don't go lower than a half-ton for your pulling vehicle. You'll thank me on the hills.
screye|6 years ago
A lot of the big decisions happen between meetings in the corridors.
Working at a satellite location, despite being onsite, is also considered harmful to your career.
It is the fact that the people who make decisions are not physically near enough for everything that happens between the bits of work. Those are the things that have historically mattered far more in career growth.
leggomylibro|6 years ago
There's just so much nature, and it's so varied in it's majesty. You can quickly drive to plenty of remote outdoor areas from NYC; most of New York is basically a huge forest. But you can't drive to see the Grand Canyon without making a big time commitment, much less places on other continents.
Unfortunately, even big RVs have their share of problems, and there is no community to be found on the road. I don't have any good answers, and I don't relish the thought of returning to a large city, but I'm not sure that moving away from them would be the panacea that many people seem to imagine it would be.
sjroot|6 years ago
What is it about Montana?
mgarfias|6 years ago
What has me wanting to move away is the insane politics in salem, caused by too many people in Portland outnumbering the rest of the state.
tootie|6 years ago
sk221|6 years ago
I worked remotely at Blackbird (https://blackbird.us/) and you could totally do this as a software engineer. It's great. Your can live in a cool place and the only thing you really need is a high speed internet connection.
unknown|6 years ago
[deleted]
samsonradu|6 years ago
If/when we get there it will also imply abstracting away the physical interaction between people. This might have unwanted social implications, read people losing many important social skills.
C1sc0cat|6 years ago
You don't get a call saying "hi xxxx we need a guitarist for seals new album can you be at Abbey Road this afternoon" if your living in a cabin in Montana.
Btw I used to work with a polymath developer who had a Phd in music and also had been a side musician on top 40 hits.
unknown|6 years ago
[deleted]
koboll|6 years ago
The article (strangely) doesn't say this directly, but it alludes to it ("I met so many wonderful kindreds...", etc).
notadoc|6 years ago
That's a fantasy unless you consider 3mbps DSL to be 'high speed'.
And that's not even remote, that's often the highest speed available not even an hour outside of many major US cities out west.
topkai22|6 years ago
> “It’s not casual. It’s not a place for a comfortable work/life balance. It’s fueled by ambition. People go go go.”
What of all those, and they will likely be most people, that don’t thrive in that environment. Are they getting a net benefit moving to a major metro? I really don’t know the answer there. The statistics are messy. All other things being equal, those of my friends that moved back to my hometown after college do not seem less happy or satisfied with their lives than those who went to major metros.
rhizome31|6 years ago
Antoninus|6 years ago
I'm a bit torn as I consider myself a mid-level developer at 7 years of experience. At the moment, I'm looking to relocate anywhere to be surrounded with senior engineers who can push me to the next level.
With that being said, I'll probably go back to the remote life when I feel more comfortable with my skills.
discordance|6 years ago
It’s so important to have in person human contact, especially with remote work, that Montana or wherever will always be a dream. Would love some ideas on how to solve this if anyone has any!
coldtea|6 years ago
OTOH, you can have more community and more friends nearby in a smaller town -- and actually get to see them and do things with them.
But you need to take the time to make friends with those people. Still I know several people who moved to a small town, small island even, and made great friends with the local community, even people from an entirely different country. YMMV.
aserafini|6 years ago
One obvious example is on demand food delivery. In a small town you still just get one or two places delivering food, the internet cannot solve that.
But in a city you’re immediately connected to every provider in your radius. It was technically true before but required walking around, local knowledge etc. The internet removed that upfront investment and made the physical network available to anyone immediately.
ipnon|6 years ago
GhettoChild|6 years ago
temon|6 years ago
ghostwriter|6 years ago
Does anyone who wants to do great work have to live in a great city? No; all great cities inspire some sort of ambition, but they aren't the only places that do. For some kinds of work, all you need is a handful of talented colleagues.
http://www.paulgraham.com/cities.html
Vesuvium|6 years ago
You don't have to live in a great city your whole life to benefit from it. The critical years seem to be the early and middle ones of your career. Clearly you don't have to grow up in a great city. Nor does it seem to matter if you go to college in one.
The Impressionists show the typical pattern: they were born all over France (Pissarro was born in the Carribbean) and died all over France, but what defined them were the years they spent together in Paris.
coldtea|6 years ago
Will it help your happiness? Will your goals and career benefit humanity one iota?
octokatt|6 years ago
I want to make it to Comfortable, by working on interesting but non-stressful problems, reach FI at forty, then enjoy my family and work at hobby research.
Am I alone here?
atum47|6 years ago
raverbashing|6 years ago
For an IT audience, Nashville is probably irrelevant, also it assumes there's "no live" outside of those cities.
pimmen|6 years ago
deanCommie|6 years ago
Tokyo? Beijing? Shanghai?
whoisjuan|6 years ago
cryptica|6 years ago
You'd think it creates a competitive environment where the best talent rises to the top but this is not the case.
What I've found instead is that the environment is competitive to the point that everyone is focused on politics and social manipulation; for example trying to claim credit for other peoples' work to get promoted or making friends with the founders. Top level managers are not capable of identifying talent and seeing though all the political BS; they fall for it over and over again but it doesn't matter because they're friends with millionaire investors so they can keep raising money even after their company fails.
It feels like behind every powerful person in a position of power, there is either a rich friend or a rich daddy.
That's why I'm into blockchain now, I'm tired of this nepotism. I want to participate in creating a new industry in which human nature can be factored out as much as possible.
simonebrunozzi|6 years ago
Also, the issues you mention (being friends with millionaire investors, etc) might be very specific to Silicon Valley / San Francisco, and less about other "alpha" places?
rmah|6 years ago
draw_down|6 years ago
notadoc|6 years ago
LOL, as if Nashville is even vaguely comparable to the other three?
jmathai|6 years ago
coldtea|6 years ago
swinglock|6 years ago