[buddylw]

I'm getting ready to go full Battlestar Galactica in all of my appliances. It's now difficult to find high end washers and ovens without these features.

At least right now we can choose not to connect the devices, but what happens if iot LTE connections get cheap enough that the choice is removed altogether, like with Tesla and other high end modern cars?

I don't think I'm just being a Luddite. This really seems like a bad idea. We need some way to assure security and limit data collection.

[Crosseye_Jack]

>what happens if iot LTE connections get cheap enough that the choice is removed altogether.

Narrowband IoT is the target market for that. T-Mobile has a plan where a certified module costs $5 (There is a min order to get that price, but for a large vendor that's not going to be an issue) then $6 p/year as long as you can keep below 12MB per year. But you can keep bw down by shipping the fingerprinting software with the TV and only sampling a small section of the screen (Other TV Vendors have done done this in the past too) and create the matching fingerprints in your server farm (So no need to send a full screenshot to fingerprint the show.

The question is then would $25 added to the BOM cost per device be worth it to the manufacturer (Cost of the module plus 3 years of NB-IoT coverage). Though you could reduce that by getting a custom deal with the carrier where you only pay for data if you actually activate it, then only activate the module if the TV has been in use for X hours without phoning home using the customers own connection.

From a cost perceptive I think we are pretty much already there.

[Scoundreller]

I think we’re safe from that because enough people put their smartTVs on the network anyway.

We’ll lose some precision in the data because it’s biased against grandma, but good enough to sell the reports.

It may be $25/unit, but if 9/10 put their device on the network anyway, that’s $250/useful outcome.

[jdsully]

$25 is hugely expensive. This is an industry that removes $0.02 bypass capacitors by trial and error to save a few pennies.

[joezydeco]

If you're getting $26 from the ad agencies, then it's $-1 on your BOM. Done deal.

[toss1]

Additional requirement for modern media room:

Faraday Cage

[lonelappde]

$6/yr is early adopter price. With a little competition and multiple spy devices per home, that will drop to bulk rates of $1/yr/device or less.

[kop316]

Thankfully it isn't quite that simple for electronics in the US. If it is sold commericially, it has to be registered with the FCC.

In this way, you at least know if it has WiFi, LTE, etc, and can see the module that is installed on it. This makes it much easier to go into the device and physically disable the radios on it.

Heck, maybe that is something like iFixit could do, have a how to to completely remove radio capabilities.

[echelon]

The average consumer won't be able (or even know) to disable built-in telemetry. As you can see from Facebook, invasive ads, DNA kits, and Alexa, most won't even care.

We've lost this battle. Our warnings weren't strong enough to win over those interested in convenience.

[thih9]

> have a how to to completely remove radio capabilities.

We have no guarantee these devices would continue to work after such operation.

[PaulWaldman]

Can there be a balance? I'd love to remotely control and view the status of my appliances without sending the telemetry to the OEM. Physically disabling all the radios would prohibit this functionality.

[babuskov]

> This makes it much easier to go into the device and physically disable the radios on it.

Wouldn't opening the device void the warranty?

[spitfire]

I already did, over a decade ago. I tell friends "No cloud services on this ship!". They've bought into it too, buying more CD's, records and dumb only TV's.

My current setup is an old 1080P Bang & Olufsen setup. Looks and sounds great. Similar with audio - B&O did airplay back in the 80's called master link. So each room in the house can play music from anywhere else.

The only things networked are actual computers and phones. That's more risk than I want to handle, no need to add more. Similarly I've passed over smartwatches for good quality Swiss watches that'll still be worth something in 18 months time. I swear I'm not some character from a William Gibson novel.

I expect at some point old school offline stuff will make a comeback like Vinyl has. Society lags a good 10-20 years behind the frontrunners. Sometimes more.

[stevewillows]

A guy in /r/buyitforlife posted a palm pilot (Tungsten C), and it got me thinking about heading back down this road (further than I already have.)

For portable audio, I'm using a souped-up iPod video. I'm thinking 2020 will be the year where I take another step in this offline direction -- at least with hardware.

[amatecha]

I'm somewhat the same way, but I've been looking at 4K TVs for ages and cannot seem to find a single one that isn't "smart". Maybe one day I'll find a good one that is dumb!

[Accacin]

I think similary, I had a moment of weakness when I bought my house and bought some cheap IoT things to make my house 'smart' but this was followed by a moment of clarity so I decided not to use any of it.

I do however, use a running watch from Garmin. That's only used for when I'm excercising though, other times I'm wearing my automatic which is much nicer and doesn't try and track me.

I use my iPod video for music and Podcasts (big shoutout to gPodder and Rockbox for making this easy!). I do not buy and rip CDs though, as I don't like having to store them. I do by all my music from Bandcamp which gives me DRM free copies I can backup.

[joeblau]

I was talking to a few people in a slack channel the other day about the potential market for a whole set of "dumb" appliances. At the end of the day, we came to the conclusion that it wouldn't be a able to reach mass market because the mass consumers seem to care more about price than security.

[ellius]

I'm not sure this is a counterargument, but if a company did this in an open way I could trust, I would buy EVERYTHING from them. Fridge, washer, dryer, dishwasher, televisions, small electronics, cars, whatever. You name it I'd buy it. I don't have enough information to determine how many people are like me, but the profit you could make on me as a customer would be ridiculous. You'd get the kind of platform loyalty that Amazon and Google dream of. I'd probably even be happy to share some personal information with you in a way that I controlled that you could turn around and sell. The sense of autonomy, privacy, and control is that valuable to me.

[Kaibeezy]

Make cars too, please.

Manual transmission (actual stick and clutch, not silly paddles), minimal ECUs, disableable seatbelt chime, cigar lighter, and so forth. You know, less cyber.

[drusepth]

If you could get the price down to a comparable point, you might be able to market against the price-vs-security crowd, but I think you'd find yourself up against another large percentage of consumers that care more about features than security, which seems a lot harder to compete with when you're pitting dumb devices against smart devices.

[fennecfoxen]

Be aware that there are existing markets for a whole set of appliances which are very, very "dumb" indeed. Take a look at Lehman's, based out of Ohio Amish country: https://www.lehmans.com/

It's hard to install spyware on something that doesn't run off electricity.

[zzo38computer]

Well, I would be interested. Also, I don't like HDMI, and I don't need such a big TV set. For TV and VCR and some stuff like that, if it uses computer system (many kind of appliances should not need any kind of computer code), having the rights provided by GPL3, and also wired IMIDI (and perhaps also IMIDI-over-IR, with a switch to disable IR entirely). And, the software should be simpler and not so slow, not so much fancy animation or otherwise bad UI (e.g. requiring you to push the arrows to select an option, even if just one button (such as a number) should do) either!

[rolph]

perhaps a pihole of some sort can be built

my major concern is that the digital parts may be connection dependent for function

[dghughes]

It is frustrating that everything has to be connected. Pretty soon toasters will need updates before toasting. Maybe ads will be burned into the toast?

For a "TV" I think I'll just get the biggest computer monitor I can and do without an actual television tuner. Most times I watch YouTube or Amazon Prime Video, more and more less Netflix and broadcast TV. Even with that setup a Pi Hole is a must.

[nesky]

You'll have to buy the monthly subscription fee to have your toast without ads.

[mikehollinger]

> At least right now we can choose not to connect the devices, but what happens if iot LTE connections get cheap enough that the choice is removed altogether, like with Tesla and other high end modern cars?

This is the point of “5G” everywhere. If the underlying phys and chips are cheap, low power and licensed appropriately a lot of “dumb” stuff will suddenly become smart whether you like it or not.

[x0x0]

What you're looking for is a law. Those strictly dominate technical capabilities, and can set useful baselines that remove the need for a consumer to deeply inspect the policies of every single device or white good they buy.

As Maciej points out, we don't teach people how to perform botulism tests to eat safe food; we regulate it. We desperately need something similar for privacy.

[wallflower]

> but what happens if iot LTE connections get cheap enough that the choice is removed altogether

It’s worse then you think. Read dredmorbius’ comment in its entirety.

> Which means that peel-and-stick computing is well within reach, if not a present reality.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21873388

[paulcole]

> what happens if iot LTE connections get cheap enough that the choice is removed altogether

Just like what happens when any product you like gets discontinued. You either accept the drawbacks of the alternatives and pick the next best choice or you do without it altogether.

If this really becomes TV with LTE or not TV, you’ll quickly see how little people truly care. Think back to 2008-2010 and the anti-smartphone people. How many of them are still holding out?

[8bitsrule]

Once people learn how much they can do without, they tend to find it quite liberating. I haven't seen the numbers, but I've heard from a reputable source that a significant portion of the populace does not own a mobile phone.

When a product I like (because it improves the quality of my life) gets discontinued, I look for a quality replacement. If I can't find one, I briefly mourn that and move on. Crap is crap (much of modern tech is nothing more) and there's plenty of quality to be found outside of paying for crap.

Life without products is actually possible. So was life without breakfast, before General Mills spent a fortune promoting it as an essential.

[arpa]

Surprisingly many, as market for dumbphones and burners show. You can still buy a dumbphone.

[matt-attack]

I recently went to but a new range/oven. In the price range I was looking at (1-2k) it was impossible to find something that didn’t have a touchscreen with some smart feature (WiFi, Bluetooth, whatever). You had to jump up to the $3-6k range to get a “pro” model that comes completely stripped of (apparent) electronics.

[fennecfoxen]

Okay, I just did a Google Search for "oven range" which led me to Best Buy's website. Literally the first one I found:

https://www.bestbuy.com/site/ge-5-3-cu-ft-slide-in-gas-range...

No wifi. No bluetooth. No touch screen. USD $860. It does have a basic digital display, for oven temperature, with well-defined buttons. USD $860.

Did you not want those buttons either?

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Unique-Prestige-24-in-2-3-cu-ft-... $980

Maybe your price range is too high.

[donatj]

My wife's CPAP machine has LTE and phones home her sleep patterns to her doctor and presumably insurance company. Whole thing makes me really uncomfortable.

[metanoia]

If it's a ResMed Airsense 10, you can put it on airplane mode. I checked with an RF meter and it has zero emissions afterwards. Now, the data is within your control and not sent to ResMed and other unknown parties.

If your insurance company wants usage and compliance information delivered to your sleep doc, put in a SD card and hand it over the old fashioned way.

Once the machine is out of warranty (or you just want the radio gone) remove it using these instructions:

http://www.cpaptalk.com/viewtopic/t104578/Semipermanently-di...

[jonplackett]

> full Battlestar Galactica

This is a truly marvellous turn of phrase.

[dyukqu]

I've watched the show (only once, for now) and I love it but didn't understand the reference :|

[Jon_Lowtek]

So say we all!

[johntash]

I have a cpap machine that uses LTE (or some sort of mobile data). I had no idea that it would automatically upload my data until I logged in to their portal one day and saw a bunch of stats before realizing "Hey.. I never gave that thing my wifi information" and looked it up.

[pluszero]

Maybe we should just ddos these endpoints, they don't deserve anything better.

[hanniabu]

Be careful, when you mess with corporate America you're basically going head on with momma bear US government.

[ficklepickle]

Assuming the aren't well programmed, it might be preferable to spoof them with junk data.

Is anyone MITM-ing and publishing the data these devices are sending? It would be nice to reverse engineer and document their APIs. Somebody needs to be watching the watchers.

[andrewksl]

I’m worried by how much I like this idea

[tome]

Interesting. Rather than restricting what is sent could one just spam them with garbage so they can't distinguish what's real from what's fake?

[twojacobtwo]

Would it note be relatively trivial for the manufacturer to just filter incoming requests by whitelist of registered ids of their appliances?

[sandworm101]

>> I don't think I'm just being a Luddite. This really seems like a bad idea. We need some way to assure security and limit data collection.

Don't buy a TV. Buy a "monitor" and plug it into a device over which you have proper control. Use a computer as a media player, a computer with appropriate privacy safeguards. Even samsung would never dare place a LTE connection on a monitor.

[stiray]

How my devices configuration look (all their mac addresses banned on router level, they dont have access to internet):

- tv, not connected to network, using raspberry pi 4 for kodi, connecting outside trough squid proxy limiting domains it can connect to. Was never connected to internet

- roborock vacuum cleaner, rooted, software disabled, replaced by open source version

- android deviced moved to microg lineage, armored with xprivacy lua and netguard, by default on spoofing/blocking everything and disabled on case by case basis. If application demands private informations it doesnt have access to internet

- 100% self hosted, sftp for files, dns server, own mail server, squid proxy with custom scripts, blocking from domains to rewritting requests, customized searx, running on custom build freebsd

- browser on all devices, heavly armored firefox

- only linux and freebsd devices except android in phone (it is going to be replaced by linux/sailfish when released - cosmo communicator)

- each new device bought is evaluated before buy and returned after buying if it cant be rooted/blocked from internet.

- no device is bought with connectivity if not needed, following "no internet of shit principle"

There are lots of details around that, ask if interested.

Survailance capitalism? No thank you.

[mark-r]

The post you're replying to suggests that an independent LTE connection will be bundled into every device, so that none of the interventions you've listed will work. Good luck maintaining your bubble.

[hyperdunc]

What resources did you use to root and install open source software on your Roborock?

[m463]

I tend to behave like you do, but it's a lot of work.

[Waterluvian]

We absolutely need consumer protection laws for this.

The problem is that capitalism doesn't permit companies to simply succeed by being profitable. They must grow too. So the people who run the business are ultimately forced to squeeze every conceivable revenue stream from their products. The March towards forced online IoT and printer ink cartridge obsolescence models for everything is inevitable.

Appliances used to last forever and you'd get a guy to come fix them. My dad gifted me a 40 year old jigsaw that works better than any new jigsaw I've used.

[ficklepickle]

Infinite expansion with finite resources. What could go wrong?

[ric2b]

How does Capitalism force capitalism to grow? There's nothing wrong with a stable company that distributes it's profits via dividends.

[megaframe]

>what happens if iot LTE connections get cheap enough that the choice is removed altogether.

Tinfoil or an ESD bag over the transmitter or MB should do the trick. It'll be the new version of putting a sticker over the camera on your laptop.

[KozmoNau7]

"It's now difficult to find high end washers and ovens without these features."

Don't buy high-end consumer units, buy industrial units instead. They won't have any fancy features like automatic program selection or whatever, but they will wash your clothes and cook your food for decades, and can stand up to uneven loads and abuse, and they can be repaired if they ever break.

I refuse to let any additional "smart" things into my life. I want buttons and manual controls, no internet connections.

I don't even want any program buttons on my microwave oven, I want exactly two knobs, one for power and one for time.

[Phylter]

Something I was impressed with recently is LG and their opt in collection policies. I was able to not opt in to most of their advertising and data collection policies and only the features that required that data collection were disabled, everything else worked fine. Samsung isn't like this and I just keep my Samsung "Smart" TVs off the network. I have a Roku (just slightly better) that handles the smart part.

[beerandt]

I thought LG got busted ignoring these preferences on TVs...

I know they didn't offer a way to turn off in-UI advertising.

[est31]

> what happens if iot LTE connections get cheap enough that the choice is removed altogether

Seriously troubling if the only reason preventing TV manufacturers from making their devices send your data via LTE is the cost of moving the data to them. Soon you'll have to put your TV into a faraday cage or remove the LTE antenna or whatever if you appreciate any notion of privacy.

[nesky]

I think it's safe to say once we're at that stage the tv's simply won't work unless connected to the network.

[ddingus]

Except for a TV, and I wanted a great plasma, I just do not buy new appliances.

Tons of used ones, many easy to service, parts available online for a song.

Have saved serious money over the years. Have no plans to change.

I hate all the extra, useless features. Just do not need any of this garbage.

For the TV, it never goes online. Whatever it does, stays home.

[PeterStuer]

My whole country has been blanketed in public WiFi access points as they were included in all but the most high end tiers of consumer broadband installations by all ISP's. Any device with WiFi can already get to the Internet regardless of your own network firewall settings using these.

[arkanciscan]

Just wrap all your appliances with tinfoil. Problem solved!

[0_____0]

have you looked into commercial variants? you can get dumb display panels geared toward that use, I'm sure the same is true for fridges, dishwashers, ovens. Aesthetics may be an issue.

[TeMPOraL]

For now. Just wait for the manufacturers to realize they can add "as a Service" to those commercial display panels. Business customers will like it because opex > capex, the vendors will argue that they need the telemetry to provide a better service, and then you won't be able to buy them as individual anyway, because there will be contracts involved.

[ekianjo]

Just buy a projector. Those have none of the connectivity features TV advertize nowadays and size does matter for displays.

[ravenstine]

Surely people can just buy used dumb-TVs?

I have a much older LCD TV(admittedly Samsung, but it was a gift) from around 2011, no smart features, but it's still perfectly good and works with all my HDMI devices. If there are millions ditching their dumb-TVs for Telescreens, that must mean that there are plenty of dumb-TVs for sale on eBay and Craigslist.

[megablast]

Samsung always seem to be the worst, whether it is recording stuff, to getting on fire. Not too hard to avoid them.

[m463]

> what happens if iot LTE connections get cheap enough

Hey, look what I found under your kitchen cabinet...

https://en.battlestarwikiclone.org/wiki/Cylon_transponder

[Barrin92]

privacy legislation like the GDPR is a good start. In the US at least California seems on their way to come up with stronger privacy legislation and hopefully it'll spill over.

[fma]

Faraday cage your house somehow. Stick to land-line and ethernet.

[papito]

Wireless emissions are not the problem. No one really cares about you enough (no offense), to spy on your proximity. It's the devices in your home with outside connection. Through your ethernet.

[zxcb1]

When you are no longer in control, you don't own the product. It's a redefinition of ownership and eventually things come to own you.

[qrbLPHiKpiux]

> high end washers

Consider Speed Queen. Best buy (pun intended) I've made in a while.

Stop with Samsung and LG - all they do is chip things.

[WWLink]

I've thought about getting Speed Queens next time around. As it stands though, I have the cheapest XL washer/dryer Whirlpool makes and they've held up fantastic over 5 years of heavy use. The washer is loud and makes the lights flicker, but I think that's kinda par for the course for those.

I'm not sure what a high end samsung would offer over a low end whirlpool that makes it worth spending 3x more.

Edit: I feel even more strongly about that and refrigerators. I definitely 100% don't want an internet connected fridge that requires security updates lol.

[daveheq]

They'll find some way to make internet required to use these devices.

[yahwrong]

> It's now difficult to find high end washers and ovens without these features.

Look for quality antique appliances. They also look better and likely are better for the environment than buying new.

[ReptileMan]

Jammer is an option. Breaking the antenna too.

[hanniabu]

I wouldn't be surprised if the devices will be bricked if they can't phone home to prevent things like this and DIY mods.

[Scoundreller]

Or a tiny IMSI catcher that’ll just constantly report: « Network Unavailable: Natural Disaster ».

It’ll be fun to see which devices bricked themselves.

[itronitron]

maybe HOAs can establish community rules and set up some sort of neighborhood firewall that blocks IOT data exfiltration

[catalogia]

An HOA is the last sort of organization I'd trust to run a firewall for me. Those orgs are magnets for petty tyrants, bored stay-at-home control freaks who want to flex on the neighborhood. How many would decide to turn the internet off after 8pm "for the children" or something equally inane?