Most western people are very negative about countries like Iran, China and Russia because they are the 'bad guys'.
Well this article again shows that there are few countries that will not gain power over dead people. It's sad but true.
Now imagine you were living in Iran and came to know about the work of the CIA. Whould you think the USA is the greatest country in the world and democracy is the way to go?
I think it would be best if we look at people in other countries without judgement and try to understand their point of view. Leaders are to blame but most of the people in this world are just living their life.
That was the closest we ever were to a democracy. However, democracy is very fragile, specially at the beginning.
And it was shattered and to this day, we never got as close. Tyrant regimes come and go and we still think what might've been. We could've easily been another France in middle east.
> Most western people are very negative about countries like Iran, China and Russia because they are the 'bad guys'.
As a resident of Europe, I don't think that's accurate. I think there are negative views of these countries in the west but I think the negativity is _much_ stronger in the US than the rest of the west.
Personally I find the US itself to be a much bigger problem than any of these countries and it seems I'm definitely not alone [0].
There is this tedX talk. I forgot the name. Someone made an app that connects people with polar opposite views. They meet in person and talk. Many times, they Gain respect for other person’s view point, and many people changed their opinion too.
We all live in our bubbles, me included. If we took 5 mins to look from opposite side, we’d have less conflicts.
The internet was supposed to bring people together. Instead we are all in some echo chamber or the other. Companies like Facebook profit handsomely from it too
Most western people are against the authoritarian regimes governing the aforementioned countries, for the obvious reason that they are an abomination to people who believe in human flourishing. The countries themselves are not capable of being good or bad, as they exist only in the human imagination.
I'm not sure what kind mental leap would take one from "USA has terrible foreign policy" to "authoritarianism is the way to go for my country". It just doesn't seem to be plausible. The fun thing about authoritarianism though is that you don't really have to want it to end up under it.
How do you assess the POV of someone under a regime of control and propaganda from dictators or tyrants? Assume they’re suffering and just hoping for a better tomorrow and you might be wrong. Hostages are known to grow emotions for their captors, after all. And outside attacks on groups lead to in-group insulation and doubling down on beliefs. Studying cultists has shown this trend.
So I don’t know. One thing a lot of these regimes have in common is oil wealth. Oil wealth tends to drive any other industries out of a country, insulate power around the ruling class, and lead to dictatorships and similar. Definitely getting humanity to use non oil energy sources ASAP would help lower the pressures, I hope.
This isn’t a perfect observation but 25% of Beverly Hills is Persian. Of course, these were a lot of wealthy families who left Iran in the 70s and then helped build one of the best cities in the United States. With a fairly high percentage of Orthodox people.
Is it the systems involved, the religions, the wealth applied to a free society or just luck that created these two outcomes?
China is harassing all of its coastal neighbours and trying to politically infiltrate just about every major country on the face of the earth.
Russia is invading neighbours, actively escalating military tensions and sabre rattling.
They don't really fit the same profile as Iran currently does.
Feel free to walk me through the 'good guy' point of view of the people who invaded my home country, shot down a passenger plane, and got away with complete impunity.
There are no good or bad guys. All the superpwers are dicks, that's how they got to being superpwers.
The world is not black and white but I would say that democracy, with all its faults, offers more instruments for a good change and sadly people are not educated to play a role.
> Whould you think the USA is the greatest country in the world and democracy is the way to go?
Why would anyone think that?
It's an absurd question frankly. You don't need to feel that way to be an ally of the US. Is there a single US ally that thinks that at this point? The US is deeply flawed country, even more than most.
The difference is that Iranians have every reason to hate the US.
The People of America may not want war. But the people of USA™, Inc. do. Which one are you?
>Leaders are to blame but most of the people in this world are just living their life.
The people get the leaders they deserve. This is because people are the ultimate power - convince enough people to go along with you overtly: you're a dictator. Covertly: you're a 1% of 1%'er, who knows the right strings to pull in the world.
In the end, neither of these conditions can occur unless the people, in their enthusiasm or in their apathy, allow it.
We can and should discuss reasons which led to current state of the world but there is nothing ambiguous about Iran, China and Russia being bad guys today. No need to put it in quotes. They are indiscriminately killing people in tens of thousands, annexing neighbor territories and in general maintain inhuman totalitarian regimes. And this happens today.
No, western people do not care about Iran and China, providing they are not actively making their lives worse. And vice versa.
I think the attitude you are expecting people to have is insulting both ways. You are denying the Iranians and Chinese have any agency...Do you really think they or their Goverments spend all their time just reacting?
Ps. If you say to someone in the west "What do you think of those re-education camps?" they will reply "Sounds like a university". Sadly, they are not completely wrong.
I completely agree with you. I do think China is becoming more and more the example people are looking at how to make progress. Politics aside the growth in wealth and it's distribution over the last 30 years have been magic.
Most people living outside the USA are very negative about the United States because this president is a very "bad guy". I'm not under such a opinion but I find it increasingly hard to have a normal conversation about the USA and it's form of the human experiment without hitting a wall of generalised criticism that ends up in stalemate.
Considering what we know what the CIA has done in the past. What kind of shadow government is functioning without consent of the people. The media institutions that suppose to keep that power in check never really informed the public on these developments. And on top the revelation of the catholic church being the biggest pedofile network that hitted the American society probably a lot harder than Europe because of stronger religious sentiments. All things combined for me it is not strange an anti establishment campaign won the presidency.
Friends, family, people that have watched movies like the Irishman, Spotlight, the Good Shepherd are not really open to adjust their point of view on the States. Iran, China and Russia are however topics where nuanced opinion still is expressed.
And even nowadays that resentment against Great Britain from Iran is very much still alive, while we hear mostly about the US getting involved in these regions
For those interested, Jack Straw (former UK Foreign Secretary) wrote a book, "The English Job", about the history of the UK and Iran (but of course touching on a lot more) is very readable. Having been published in 2019, it's also pretty up-to-date.
There is apparently a joke amongst diplomats that 'Iran is the only country in the world which still regards the United Kingdom as a superpower'. There is a phrase in Iran, which translates as something like "It's always an English job", applied to something that has been botched and mishandled. I'd definitely say that for the layman, if you want to understand the relationship twixt the West and Iran (which is so much more than just the US and Iran) this book has a place on your reading list.
We'll still be dependent on materials like plastic. Entire categories of good production, like corn processing, depend on using parts of processed oil. Ships burn oil and they're not going to switch to electric any time soon.
Our oil dependency isn't just about the cars we drive.
Just about all applications of oil and natural gas have similar features as their use in the transportation sector: other energy sources could be used, but they are more expensive.
There are no circumstances in sight that would make oil/gas extraction uneconomical, especially in light of the rise of demand from developing countries.
So we'll have to arrange for the oil extraction reductions using international agreements.
It's not about oil necessarily. It's about energy source or more generally - a valuable resource. If lithium batteries become the new "oil", then lithium rich countries will become targets and oil countries will be ignored. But I think oil will be valuable for many decades to come. Oil use is projected to increase worldwide by every regulatory body.
As long as oil is valuable, we'll fight over it. If lithium becomes valuable, we'll fight over it. Times change, but sadly people remain the same. Especially the greedy elite.
One hope is for more stability. But I can imagine a duality where countries developed enough for EVs will decouple somewhat from countries developing on oil. This assumes oil remains vastly cheaper for under developed regions.
I think we are not that dependant on oil right now either and we are just used to continue the same failed tactics if the past. The people who make these decisions are just not making them economically and they are just used to continue the same policies.
Iran is in Israel's and Saudi Arabia's cross hairs. It is my feeling that the US is mostly antagonistic to Iran because of the influence of these two regional rivals of Iran.
And as soon as the cold war ended, in 1989, the USA invaded Panama to put their own man as president. In the process, the USA killed more than 3000 civilians. The man who ordered the invasion was George H W Bush, a former director of the CIA.
And if you're looking for more recent cases, the USA supported the military coup in Egypt in 2013. The government even refused to call it a coup because of legal implications. This was an important blow to democracy in the region. The authoritarian evolution in Turkey is partly due to this.
I'm not saying other democracies are better than the USA. I'm French, and my country still cannot face its past in Algeria. And France still supports dictators, like a 2018 bombing in Chad recently proved. But over the last couple of decades, I don't think any country killed more foreign civilians than the USA did, by a large margin. Even Saudi Arabia and UAE, with their wars in Yemen and Lybia, can't compare.
> Mossadegh thought he was in the clear, but Roosevelt hadn't given up. He orchestrated a second coup, which succeeded. Mossadegh was placed on trial and spent his life under house arrest.
Please if you are interested in this read more. This article is just garbage.
Start with wiki it is actually surprisingly good.
“The official pretext for the start of the coup was Mosaddegh's decree to dissolve Parliament, giving himself and his cabinet complete power to rule, while effectively stripping the Shah of his powers.[13][14][15]”
Say Boris Johnson dissolves parliament takes all of the power into his own hands and his ministers. Queen tries to relieve him(coup!!!!) has to run away to France :o He then starts imprisoning anyone who has a problem with that.
I also like the legend about CIA managing to bribe a bunch of communists party members to burn down part of Tehran trying to start revolution, at the same time they were bribing: media, army, other counter protestors, security, religious leaders. Just how many agents did they have running this masterclass operation? Nobody in in Tehran clearly had any will of their own.
Interestingly enough your surprisingly good starting point (I can't tell since Wikipedia political articles are often heavily biased, so if I trust this one as impartial I'd be suffering from Gell-Man amnesia again) has this to say:
> The Shah himself initially opposed the coup plans, and supported the oil nationalization, but he joined after being informed by the CIA that he too would be "deposed" if he didn't play along.
It also has this to say:
> During the coup, Roosevelt and Wilber, representatives of the Eisenhower administration, bribed Iranian government officials, reporters, and businessmen. They also bribed street thugs to support the Shah and oppose Mosaddegh. ...
> Another tactic Roosevelt admitted to using was bribing demonstrators into attacking symbols of the Shah, while chanting pro-Mosaddegh slogans. ...
Is this surprisingly good or is it laughable legend again?
[+] [-] thdrdt|6 years ago|reply
Well this article again shows that there are few countries that will not gain power over dead people. It's sad but true.
Now imagine you were living in Iran and came to know about the work of the CIA. Whould you think the USA is the greatest country in the world and democracy is the way to go?
I think it would be best if we look at people in other countries without judgement and try to understand their point of view. Leaders are to blame but most of the people in this world are just living their life.
[+] [-] emilsedgh|6 years ago|reply
That was the closest we ever were to a democracy. However, democracy is very fragile, specially at the beginning.
And it was shattered and to this day, we never got as close. Tyrant regimes come and go and we still think what might've been. We could've easily been another France in middle east.
Source: Iranian living in the U.S.
[+] [-] Youden|6 years ago|reply
As a resident of Europe, I don't think that's accurate. I think there are negative views of these countries in the west but I think the negativity is _much_ stronger in the US than the rest of the west.
Personally I find the US itself to be a much bigger problem than any of these countries and it seems I'm definitely not alone [0].
[0]: https://fullfact.org/news/america-world-peace/
[+] [-] tuesday20|6 years ago|reply
We all live in our bubbles, me included. If we took 5 mins to look from opposite side, we’d have less conflicts.
The internet was supposed to bring people together. Instead we are all in some echo chamber or the other. Companies like Facebook profit handsomely from it too
[+] [-] hyko|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] entropyneur|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ianai|6 years ago|reply
So I don’t know. One thing a lot of these regimes have in common is oil wealth. Oil wealth tends to drive any other industries out of a country, insulate power around the ruling class, and lead to dictatorships and similar. Definitely getting humanity to use non oil energy sources ASAP would help lower the pressures, I hope.
[+] [-] gohi77|6 years ago|reply
Is it the systems involved, the religions, the wealth applied to a free society or just luck that created these two outcomes?
[+] [-] unknown|6 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] missosoup|6 years ago|reply
Russia is invading neighbours, actively escalating military tensions and sabre rattling.
They don't really fit the same profile as Iran currently does.
Feel free to walk me through the 'good guy' point of view of the people who invaded my home country, shot down a passenger plane, and got away with complete impunity.
There are no good or bad guys. All the superpwers are dicks, that's how they got to being superpwers.
[+] [-] aasasd|6 years ago|reply
> and democracy is the way to go
Democracy = USA? Hmmm, didn't know that.
[+] [-] m-p-3|6 years ago|reply
Everything would be better in this world if we did.
[+] [-] haecceity|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] wslh|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unapologetic|6 years ago|reply
Why would anyone think that?
It's an absurd question frankly. You don't need to feel that way to be an ally of the US. Is there a single US ally that thinks that at this point? The US is deeply flawed country, even more than most.
The difference is that Iranians have every reason to hate the US.
[+] [-] tiatia|6 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] fit2rule|6 years ago|reply
>Leaders are to blame but most of the people in this world are just living their life.
The people get the leaders they deserve. This is because people are the ultimate power - convince enough people to go along with you overtly: you're a dictator. Covertly: you're a 1% of 1%'er, who knows the right strings to pull in the world.
In the end, neither of these conditions can occur unless the people, in their enthusiasm or in their apathy, allow it.
[+] [-] trevyn|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Yizahi|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] alamaslah|6 years ago|reply
I think the attitude you are expecting people to have is insulting both ways. You are denying the Iranians and Chinese have any agency...Do you really think they or their Goverments spend all their time just reacting?
Ps. If you say to someone in the west "What do you think of those re-education camps?" they will reply "Sounds like a university". Sadly, they are not completely wrong.
[+] [-] lowdose|6 years ago|reply
Most people living outside the USA are very negative about the United States because this president is a very "bad guy". I'm not under such a opinion but I find it increasingly hard to have a normal conversation about the USA and it's form of the human experiment without hitting a wall of generalised criticism that ends up in stalemate.
Considering what we know what the CIA has done in the past. What kind of shadow government is functioning without consent of the people. The media institutions that suppose to keep that power in check never really informed the public on these developments. And on top the revelation of the catholic church being the biggest pedofile network that hitted the American society probably a lot harder than Europe because of stronger religious sentiments. All things combined for me it is not strange an anti establishment campaign won the presidency.
Friends, family, people that have watched movies like the Irishman, Spotlight, the Good Shepherd are not really open to adjust their point of view on the States. Iran, China and Russia are however topics where nuanced opinion still is expressed.
[+] [-] Dinux|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] EliRivers|6 years ago|reply
There is apparently a joke amongst diplomats that 'Iran is the only country in the world which still regards the United Kingdom as a superpower'. There is a phrase in Iran, which translates as something like "It's always an English job", applied to something that has been botched and mishandled. I'd definitely say that for the layman, if you want to understand the relationship twixt the West and Iran (which is so much more than just the US and Iran) this book has a place on your reading list.
[+] [-] unknown|6 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] unknown|6 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] ossworkerrights|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jeroenhd|6 years ago|reply
Our oil dependency isn't just about the cars we drive.
[+] [-] fulafel|6 years ago|reply
There are no circumstances in sight that would make oil/gas extraction uneconomical, especially in light of the rise of demand from developing countries.
So we'll have to arrange for the oil extraction reductions using international agreements.
[+] [-] elfexec|6 years ago|reply
As long as oil is valuable, we'll fight over it. If lithium becomes valuable, we'll fight over it. Times change, but sadly people remain the same. Especially the greedy elite.
[+] [-] ianai|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] asplake|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mmrezaie|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bhouston|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|6 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] tus88|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] idoubtit|6 years ago|reply
And if you're looking for more recent cases, the USA supported the military coup in Egypt in 2013. The government even refused to call it a coup because of legal implications. This was an important blow to democracy in the region. The authoritarian evolution in Turkey is partly due to this.
I'm not saying other democracies are better than the USA. I'm French, and my country still cannot face its past in Algeria. And France still supports dictators, like a 2018 bombing in Chad recently proved. But over the last couple of decades, I don't think any country killed more foreign civilians than the USA did, by a large margin. Even Saudi Arabia and UAE, with their wars in Yemen and Lybia, can't compare.
[+] [-] baybal2|6 years ago|reply
Never become complacent.
[+] [-] tlear|6 years ago|reply
Start with wiki it is actually surprisingly good.
“The official pretext for the start of the coup was Mosaddegh's decree to dissolve Parliament, giving himself and his cabinet complete power to rule, while effectively stripping the Shah of his powers.[13][14][15]”
Say Boris Johnson dissolves parliament takes all of the power into his own hands and his ministers. Queen tries to relieve him(coup!!!!) has to run away to France :o He then starts imprisoning anyone who has a problem with that.
I also like the legend about CIA managing to bribe a bunch of communists party members to burn down part of Tehran trying to start revolution, at the same time they were bribing: media, army, other counter protestors, security, religious leaders. Just how many agents did they have running this masterclass operation? Nobody in in Tehran clearly had any will of their own.
[+] [-] oefrha|6 years ago|reply
> The Shah himself initially opposed the coup plans, and supported the oil nationalization, but he joined after being informed by the CIA that he too would be "deposed" if he didn't play along.
It also has this to say:
> During the coup, Roosevelt and Wilber, representatives of the Eisenhower administration, bribed Iranian government officials, reporters, and businessmen. They also bribed street thugs to support the Shah and oppose Mosaddegh. ...
> Another tactic Roosevelt admitted to using was bribing demonstrators into attacking symbols of the Shah, while chanting pro-Mosaddegh slogans. ...
Is this surprisingly good or is it laughable legend again?