[ericfrenkiel]

Epstein didn't kill himself.

Video footage "accidentally" deleted and the backup footage also lost due to "technical errors."

His death and a cleanup so slovenly and brazenly done in front of the public eye is a mockery of America as a nation of "liberty and justice for all."

[onlyrealcuzzo]

This happens MUCH less today than at any time in the past. Only 2 generations ago, stuff like this was happening on a daily basis everywhere in the world. This was basically what justice used to be.

The world is not fair. There is little justice. But it's more fair and just than it's ever been before, by far. Maybe we've taken a step back in the last 10 years. It's hard to say. But compared to even 50 years ago, we are so far ahead it's unbelievable. 100 years, and it's basically a different world.

[mannykannot]

Well, that seems to be a fact, but it is not a reason to not regard it as suspicious, and not a reason to not investigate.

[elfexec]

> This happens MUCH less today than at any time in the past.

Really? You know this how?

> Only 2 generations ago, stuff like this was happening on a daily basis everywhere in the world.

And it magically stopped?

> This was basically what justice used to be.

As opposed to justice now being what money can buy?

> But it's more fair and just than it's ever been before

I disagree. The world is just as fair and just as it's ever been before. This is just recency bias like how the enlightenment crowd painted the period before them as the "dark ages" where no learning or progress was made.

> But compared to even 50 years ago, we are so far ahead it's unbelievable.

Maybe if we cherrypick some parts or aspects.

> 100 years, and it's basically a different world.

Humans are still humans.

Things aren't as terrible as you think they were. Things aren't as terrible today as some think. Things aren't as great as some think they were. Things aren't as great today as some think.

[Ohn0]

"America" is different than "everywhere in the world"

[kowolkian]

Holding up Epstein’s likely murder as evidence of progress is deeply fucked up. I hope you have values.

[dr_dshiv]

Kind of impressive, and nice in a way - - since it is so obviously corrupt and we become aware of it because the case is so high profile. Makes you wonder who pulled it off and how often things like it occur.

[root_axis]

The attorney general confirmed it was a suicide, so if we're to believe it was actually a surreptitious murder, it goes all the way to the top.

[roenxi]

Epstein might still be alive and the whole thing some sort of elaborate witness protection scheme to protect him from all of the people who want him dead. So there might not be corruption all the way to the top.

Corruption seems like an easier explanation though.

[mhh__]

I think it's more likely that he or people around him pulled strings so he could kill himself rather than he be killed.

[wwweston]

If he's powerful enough to pull strings to kill himself, why wouldn't he pull strings to disappear?

If I want a conspiracy theory involving Epstein's power here, it's going to be that this is how you disappear if you're powerful enough, and the phrase "Epstein didn't kill himself" is correct not because his death wasn't a suicide, but because it's not his death.

[GhostVII]

What actual evidence do you have that he was murdered? I think it is much more likely that someone who was going to be in prison for the rest of his life, and who previously attempted suicide, killed himself rather than being murdered by someone in the prison. There is footage of the guards falsifying time sheets, so to me it seems like a pretty clear case of negligence. I recall reading an FBI report about the suicide, where they said that they watched footage of the outside of the cell at the time of his suicide, but I can't find it back.

[Waterluvian]

Great claims require great evidence. Your claim makes me increasingly skeptical, but I require a lot more.

What is the best, least crackpot looking resource to dig into the _facts_?

[grey-area]

The cctv footage existed, it has now been ‘accidentally deleted’.

The chances of this happening on a high profile case are infinitesimally small. So on the contrary the great claim requiring evidence is that this was a completely normal suicide in prison. Where is the evidence this video was deleted by mistake?

https://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2020/01/10/us/09reuters-peop...

[remarkEon]

I've got no "facts" for you, but, and I've said this before here, if Epstein was about to testify in court about organized crime or a murder allegedly committed by a Mafia member no one here would be questioning the idea that he was murdered.

That he was in deep with very, very powerful people for a long time that are in the public eye we now somehow have to apply greater scrutiny to the evidence. Just, gobbledygook.

Perhaps we should realize that there really isn't much difference between the Mafia and generational political families.

[briandear]

The claim that he killed himself should also require evidence.

[at-fates-hands]

A lot of the evidence seems to be anecdotal. I've heard multiple interviews of people who have worked in various functions over the years at MCC where Epstein was being held.

All have noted how tight the security is (its often referred to as the "Gitmo of the East"), how so many failures would have to occur for him to be able to do what he did without anybody seeing it happen, or not have someone realize he was trying to kill himself and stop it.

I remember an interview with a high level jail admin and when asked about Epstein and what happened, he just laughed. The host asked why he was laughing and he basically said, "I worked there for 15 years, no way this happens with the security they have there. Someone was paid off or it was an inside job. There's no doubt in my mind when I consider the kind of people Epstein was linked to."

[ww520]

Funny how the players are all intertwined in the loss of the suicide video.

https://i.redd.it/6pg6wj8toy941.png

[dguaraglia]

Not in the picture: the President of the United States and very close friend to Epstein, Donald Trump.

[krick]

We all kind of know that, yet it still remain just a "conspiracy theory" which no decent person will dare to publicly acknowledge. Yeah, another one.

[alexis_fr]

“Suicide” is also a totally unfounded accusation on paar with a conspiracy theory: There isn’t a single proof of suicide. Yet all the newspapers repeated it gullibly until social media made it impossible to ignore the opposite. So why wasn’t this affirmation entirely disqualified first hand?

At best, the doctor can affirm that Epstein died. Little more. Suicide is associating a storytelling, a blatantly lying storytelling in the face of the public as long as no proof of intent was even available when the suicide was affirmed. We basically know nothing on the circumstances of his death, so the suicide word was more than unfounded.

[pastor_elm]

occam's razor says you're wrong.

[harry8]

You toss a coin 8 times and are told you get 8 heads, you wanted tails, the person reporting this to you wanted heads on each occasion. By occam's razor is 8 heads a simpler explanation than you were lied to?

One toss, you couldn't really detect much smell. But 8? Does it stink?

Any one of these things, camera footage x2, cell mate, suicide watch removal, plea deal, guards asleep x2, association with the current president, Bill Clinton, actual royalty, just for starters... and we can keep going with these coincidences.

Any one, fine, happens. Any three, ok, weird, but not totally outside expectation. But we're kind of beyond that. It just stinks. If it's all just a massive coincidence that all these independent things "just happened" that needs support because it seems the assumption that all those events are independent is shaky, at best. Shaky by occam's razor heuristic.

0.9^8 is less than 50%

So it should be looked at closely on principle. With or without support from occam's razor.

[lkschubert8]

Occam's razor isn't a law, just a heuristic.

[zamalek]

Irrespective of the trueness or falseness of this, it is completely off-topic.

[JasonFruit]

It is off-topic, but that's not uncommon on HN — and it's certainly one of the most important points that can be made from the Epstein case.

[tptacek]

This comment is downvoted, but shouldn't be: "Epstein didn't kill himself" clearly is off-topic for the thread, and the resulting "discussion" ate the whole thread. 'zamalek is absolutely right.