('Higher' being 'degree equivalent', and 'degree' being with an actual degree conferred by an actual university.)
At Arm I had a colleague who was on that programme, and so was also studying at a university. I think it started off part-time, 2 and 3 days of a week or something, and then switched to term-here/term-there.
I agree, great scheme. (Icing on the cake: I believe the education is paid for (subsidised by government and paid for by company?) in addition to the work being paid.)
That's what we call 'Duales Studium' in Germany. You just do your semesters normally and in between instead of springbreak etc you work for the company.
This is what RIT has always been about, where you MUST complete PAID cooperative education for degree credits. Typically after year 2, you're going to school some semesters, and then working the other semesters at a company in your field. It's a great stepping stone to get into the workforce
I'm currently in the program and it is very much both. We work 20 hours a week at Shopify, and take three classes per term, including the summer, at the university. We are paid a salary and our tuition is covered. At the end of the program we will have had 4 placements at Shopify, and receive a Comp Sci Honours degree from the University.
It's wonderful to see this on the front page. I'm currently a student at the Lassonde School of Engineering at York University studying software engineering and heavily involved in the school community.
The Lassonde School of Engineering opened 8 years ago with a fervour for Innovation and Entrepreneurship. I suggest folks give the school a Google search as it has rapidly developed to become a phenomenonal environment with its own startup incubator and entrepreneurshi' degree with courses from VCs. I digress, but feel free to ask me any more questions about the school.
The dev degree program started its first cohort last year actually and it now is in its second year.
It is structured so students work 20 hours a week at Shopify and take 3 courses per semester at school. Students are required to work and go to school through the summer which allows them to complete the degree in the standard four years.
My peers in the program have I said great things. One of the key parts of the program is how one switches between different teams to get a better understanding of the software engineering landscape. Moreover the mentorship is very helpful and not only developing your technical skills by yourself skills.
One question that students and parents asked me a lot is if there is a requirement to work at Shopify following the completion of the program. Luckily Shopify has made it clear that they will not be expecting students to stay once they complete their degree, but it is my intuition that many people from the program will stay on after their large time investment into the Shopify ecosystem.
Overall, I would have entered this program myself for it for engineering students as well. Sadly, the program is restricted to computer science students as the Canadian accreditation requirements for engineering are not fulfilled while in the dev degree program.
Although people may say "why do you need a degree?", it is difficult to find a job without the qualification of showing your ability to complete post-secondary in a field of candidates that did.
With initiatives such as Silicon Valley trip for students run by the Lassonde co-op Department, I am sure that lassonde will continue to innovate and engage students in meaningful ways beyond the traditional methods.
How do you feel about York's CS program in terms of helping students be competitive candidates? At some Toronto companies it sometimes feels like they prefer U Waterloo CS or Engineering grads.
i am wishing i could go back 15 years and do this now. i was dumb enough to go to an ivy league for an unrelated degree, then change careers and go thru a bootcamp, and i'm now still 100's of thousands in debt. if i was growing up today i would absolutely drop everything to do this. kudos to shopify but it really feels a little bittersweet.
I don't have the amount of debt that you do but I also did a career change after some years of doing dead end jobs. I have the same feeling that I wish this was an option for me when I was looking to start university but I'm also aware I had no idea what I wanted to do with my life when I was 18. Chances are I would do these 4 years then decide I want to be a sky diving instructor or something instead.
Curious and want to ask: if this were available 15 years ago, would you have done it? It seems like you'd need to 1) have CS as your goal, 2) know about Shopify and their program, and 3) get in.
I know a lot of people don't even have CS on their radar when they enter college.
Graduated from an unrelated degree more recently, but had the opportunity to write a whole lot of code while there. Got my first dev job right out of school.
There are much more opportunities nowaday to use coding in almost every major, sadly, the schools haven't changed, ending up imo ruining a lot of career.
While my debt load is not nearly as much I did the same thing. I studied economics even though when I got home from class I would spend hours and hours tinkering with hardware, Linux, and programming. Everyone I talked to thought I was silly for not sticking with my CS major and doing Economics. They were right. I am learning on the job and it’s been kicking my butt but I am learning and it’s been good though I would go back and tell my old self to stick with CS.
Took me getting a doctorate in an unrelated field before I realized I was in the wrong place and changed careers.
I don't have the debt (just the opportunity cost of wasting a decade doing something I didn't really want to do), and this program wouldn't have saved me, but I understand your regret.
If we ignore pedigree and networking, how good (high quality material/curriculum, good lecturers) do public/affordable/free universities and colleges provide (in US)?
This is cool. But very conflicting for me personally. Here I am, deciding whether to apply to the Mississippi Teacher's Corp, which would give me a free Master's degree while getting paid to teach. Probably like $35k per year. And then here is this program, which is very tempting to apply to, partly because of the salary. It should be the other way around. Teaching is so much more valuable than coding.
Disclosure: recent hire at Shopify, not through this program. Just learned about it, actually today from HN. After mentioning it to my team, was pointed to this link and thought I'd share it here.
As someone who went the bootcamp route, got a job, and absolutely would love a structured CS education that would expand my skills and experience beyond my day to day coding I do now this is very tempting.
The site isn't very specific about location, are there location requirements?
I offhand mentioned a previous program they ran (letting people out of the field get an internship) to someone I knew, and it made a huge difference. Creating/sustaining jobs/incomes in this way is actually very cool in my books.
It says salary, tuition & vacation. So I wouldn't be surprised if that's a $160k estimation for the whole thing for the 4 years!
But yeah, either way, better than $60k/y in tuition you end up owing!
40000 Canadian per year is correct. You are given vacation days and are expected to work like a salaried employee. Plus they cover the tuition which is approximately 10 thousand a year after fees.
Source: Lassonde student (where the dev degree program exists)
When you’re the first large provider of tech apprenticeships, you want apprentices to stick around after graduation. The problem is that Shopify generally can’t force employees to stay (companies hate suing over breach of contract for education subsidies). One work around is to pay a low salary during the training period. That’s exactly what Shopify is doing (160K over 4 years = 40K per year).
This could be a cheap way of boosting Shopify’s workforce and reputation. Tech companies have high revenue per employee. If Big Tech follows suit with other apprenticeships, Shopify could be known as the company that made white collar apprenticeships a thing in the U.S. and Canada. The apprentice program would become less expensive for Shopify over time as it captures apprentices from other companies.
They’re not paying them that much- $160 000 over four years, including tuition. So it’s $40 000 a year, which is a great deal imo (for both parties).
I assume that, with sufficient screening, you can get someone contributing relatively quickly, and start getting value. I think the key is the screening- they’re not giving this offer to every CS student. At the places I’ve worked, we’ve definitely got value out of interns comparable to a junior developer.
Depends on the 'intern' culture they have here. They are basically paying people 40k per year. Combine that with an actual program for entry-level hires (like a bootcamp), and I can see the value. I'm not sure what Dev salaries look like in Canada, but in the US, 40k is extremely low. I think Shopify is a rails shop, which is super quick to get productive in. Also, given the stack, it's probably not as easy to just throw H1b (or whatever Can equivalent) at the problem.
This is also a great value for the applicants, as you get actual experience, with no tuition. Very interested to see how this works out. Kudos to Shopify for forward thinking.
I'm going to tackle this from the perspective of an apprenticeship (which is what I'm doing). In general it seems similar to hiring tech interns - they're expensive but can pay off if you really invest into it. Few things to note:
1) Usually they pay apprentices less but apprentices can still provide huge value to the team they're working on (after a while).
2) I have no solid data on this, but I assume apprentices have a lower churn rate/stay at their company longer.
3) The biggie: Some countries basically force companies to have an apprenticeship programme. In the UK, there's a levy which effectively makes a company put aside 0.4% of their payroll for funding apprenticeships - which nicely incentivises companies to do something that would otherwise be unprofitable.
Would be nice for (a) company/ies to do the same and allow for remote work while partnering with online program(s) (a la udemey & co or even some Harvard online). That way, it would let people all over the world access it and pool some really dope talent for the company(ies)!
The students would be thrilled for the free or subsidized education while having some real world practice from real world companies.
I remember hating how dumb some of the projects were in school and how going out of your way to make the project really awesome didn't really earn you much.
This looks really neat. I wish I had the foresight years ago to join something like this or even do a straight cs track to a large company.
My path has been less linear. Finished college with an accounting degree then worked at two fortune 500 consulting companies. I spent my nights and weekends doing web development work on the side (even did a failed startup with a buddy). A full-time opportunity opened up from one of these gigs and I've been there since. Now I run all their applications, websites, IT, and digital advertising.
Whenever I see programs like this pop up I'm always intrigued to supplement professional work with an academic mark in the hat as I know things could wind-down here and will be on a job search leaving me nervous as a 30 y/o developer whose has been working at small businesses (and not anything like FAANG). This is why I'll still pick up freelance work from time to time.
For sanity about 2 years back, I did apply and went through a series of interviews and tests for a remote software engineering position at a hot bay area company. It came down between me and one other guy. They conducted additional interviews because it was quite close. I ended up getting beat out, the other guy had a few years on me.
At my university there are a number of math requirements for the CS degree. A couple calculus courses, a couple linear algebra courses and a discrete math course. Each of them is the foundation for other CS courses, such as discrete math is for analysis of algorithms. Is this the case with these newer schools / approaches to becoming a software engineer? I for one really appreciate the math, but is it appreciated in industry? Curious to know.
Does having a degree matter for majority of developer roles? I've gone down the apprenticeship route (UK) and went into web development. Getting a degree would be very unlikely to affect my chances of getting a job (should I move away from freelancing), or a higher salary, not everywhere, but probably 9/10 places.
Web dev is different from others, but I think that it's not a huge help. Or at least, a comp sci degree isn't going to help too much. Web dev is more about presenting content than about "serious comp sci stuff". A comp sci degree is useful if you need to work a job where you have to remember which sub-type of trie is best for such and such data.
That said, you can learn just fine without a degree. Much of what I learned, especially the stuff that most developers use, was before college. The biggest barrier is that many employers consider college a test of "not being a fruit loop", but if you've got work experience, that should help overcome the barrier.
[+] [-] peteretep|6 years ago|reply
http://www.cs.ox.ac.uk/softeng/
all-in cost was something like £25,000 for me including accommodation, and they're open minded about accepting people without undergraduate degrees.
EDIT: happy to answer questions by email
[+] [-] tybit|6 years ago|reply
Which I think is fantastic, Universities are generally terrible at teaching practical skills and fantastic at teaching theory.
[+] [-] OJFord|6 years ago|reply
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/...
('Higher' being 'degree equivalent', and 'degree' being with an actual degree conferred by an actual university.)
At Arm I had a colleague who was on that programme, and so was also studying at a university. I think it started off part-time, 2 and 3 days of a week or something, and then switched to term-here/term-there.
I agree, great scheme. (Icing on the cake: I believe the education is paid for (subsidised by government and paid for by company?) in addition to the work being paid.)
[+] [-] stonejolt|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] overcast|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ec109685|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] c_codes|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] alphakilo|6 years ago|reply
The Lassonde School of Engineering opened 8 years ago with a fervour for Innovation and Entrepreneurship. I suggest folks give the school a Google search as it has rapidly developed to become a phenomenonal environment with its own startup incubator and entrepreneurshi' degree with courses from VCs. I digress, but feel free to ask me any more questions about the school.
The dev degree program started its first cohort last year actually and it now is in its second year.
It is structured so students work 20 hours a week at Shopify and take 3 courses per semester at school. Students are required to work and go to school through the summer which allows them to complete the degree in the standard four years.
My peers in the program have I said great things. One of the key parts of the program is how one switches between different teams to get a better understanding of the software engineering landscape. Moreover the mentorship is very helpful and not only developing your technical skills by yourself skills.
One question that students and parents asked me a lot is if there is a requirement to work at Shopify following the completion of the program. Luckily Shopify has made it clear that they will not be expecting students to stay once they complete their degree, but it is my intuition that many people from the program will stay on after their large time investment into the Shopify ecosystem.
Overall, I would have entered this program myself for it for engineering students as well. Sadly, the program is restricted to computer science students as the Canadian accreditation requirements for engineering are not fulfilled while in the dev degree program.
Although people may say "why do you need a degree?", it is difficult to find a job without the qualification of showing your ability to complete post-secondary in a field of candidates that did.
With initiatives such as Silicon Valley trip for students run by the Lassonde co-op Department, I am sure that lassonde will continue to innovate and engage students in meaningful ways beyond the traditional methods.
[+] [-] rchaud|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mabbo|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] swyx|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sumo89|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] beering|6 years ago|reply
I know a lot of people don't even have CS on their radar when they enter college.
[+] [-] Aperocky|6 years ago|reply
There are much more opportunities nowaday to use coding in almost every major, sadly, the schools haven't changed, ending up imo ruining a lot of career.
[+] [-] gigatexal|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] faceyspacey|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] IggleSniggle|6 years ago|reply
I don't have the debt (just the opportunity cost of wasting a decade doing something I didn't really want to do), and this program wouldn't have saved me, but I understand your regret.
[+] [-] zerr|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] chrisseaton|6 years ago|reply
Is that hyperbole, or literally your debt is that much?
[+] [-] greenie_beans|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] i_haz_rabies|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|6 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] mwexler|6 years ago|reply
https://engineering.shopify.com/blogs/engineering/dev-degree...
Disclosure: recent hire at Shopify, not through this program. Just learned about it, actually today from HN. After mentioning it to my team, was pointed to this link and thought I'd share it here.
[+] [-] duxup|6 years ago|reply
The site isn't very specific about location, are there location requirements?
[+] [-] brutus1213|6 years ago|reply
I offhand mentioned a previous program they ran (letting people out of the field get an internship) to someone I knew, and it made a huge difference. Creating/sustaining jobs/incomes in this way is actually very cool in my books.
[+] [-] baron816|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] fataliss|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] alphakilo|6 years ago|reply
Source: Lassonde student (where the dev degree program exists)
[+] [-] xupybd|6 years ago|reply
I've seen companies strugle to make money with mid level devs.
[+] [-] keenmaster|6 years ago|reply
This could be a cheap way of boosting Shopify’s workforce and reputation. Tech companies have high revenue per employee. If Big Tech follows suit with other apprenticeships, Shopify could be known as the company that made white collar apprenticeships a thing in the U.S. and Canada. The apprentice program would become less expensive for Shopify over time as it captures apprentices from other companies.
[+] [-] fnbr|6 years ago|reply
I assume that, with sufficient screening, you can get someone contributing relatively quickly, and start getting value. I think the key is the screening- they’re not giving this offer to every CS student. At the places I’ve worked, we’ve definitely got value out of interns comparable to a junior developer.
[+] [-] ezzzzz|6 years ago|reply
This is also a great value for the applicants, as you get actual experience, with no tuition. Very interested to see how this works out. Kudos to Shopify for forward thinking.
[+] [-] cameronbrown|6 years ago|reply
1) Usually they pay apprentices less but apprentices can still provide huge value to the team they're working on (after a while).
2) I have no solid data on this, but I assume apprentices have a lower churn rate/stay at their company longer.
3) The biggie: Some countries basically force companies to have an apprenticeship programme. In the UK, there's a levy which effectively makes a company put aside 0.4% of their payroll for funding apprenticeships - which nicely incentivises companies to do something that would otherwise be unprofitable.
[+] [-] fataliss|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] clintonb|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] SnowingXIV|6 years ago|reply
My path has been less linear. Finished college with an accounting degree then worked at two fortune 500 consulting companies. I spent my nights and weekends doing web development work on the side (even did a failed startup with a buddy). A full-time opportunity opened up from one of these gigs and I've been there since. Now I run all their applications, websites, IT, and digital advertising.
Whenever I see programs like this pop up I'm always intrigued to supplement professional work with an academic mark in the hat as I know things could wind-down here and will be on a job search leaving me nervous as a 30 y/o developer whose has been working at small businesses (and not anything like FAANG). This is why I'll still pick up freelance work from time to time.
For sanity about 2 years back, I did apply and went through a series of interviews and tests for a remote software engineering position at a hot bay area company. It came down between me and one other guy. They conducted additional interviews because it was quite close. I ended up getting beat out, the other guy had a few years on me.
[+] [-] sandGorgon|6 years ago|reply
https://www.redcarpetup.com/rocks
we do active placement here (unless we hire them). We have an above 90% placement rate here.
[+] [-] sandeep1998|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] aiphex|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jakubwaw|6 years ago|reply
Keen to hear other experiences and opinions
[+] [-] big_chungus|6 years ago|reply
That said, you can learn just fine without a degree. Much of what I learned, especially the stuff that most developers use, was before college. The biggest barrier is that many employers consider college a test of "not being a fruit loop", but if you've got work experience, that should help overcome the barrier.
[+] [-] starpilot|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] HiroshiSan|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kuresov|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] LoSboccacc|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rshnotsecure|6 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] duxup|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] RobRivera|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rshnotsecure|6 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] erland|6 years ago|reply