> NC: One thing that’s happened is the press has been pretty much muzzled. They are very uncritical.
This is a big issue with mass media in India that many don’t realize or want to realize. Between — a) most of the mainstream media houses (except a few) not asking tough questions (but supporting the government for everything), b) the Supreme Court ignoring important cases and not hearing them for years and c) the amount of fake news spread through WhatsApp — the liberal forums in India are filled with stories of how people are losing relationships or finding it difficult to digest the fact that their loved ones are close minded bigots.
Twitter has become a cesspool of bots, political party “IT Cells” and people copy pasting the same messages and hashtags, while WhatsApp has become the main source of truth (actually falsehood) for most people.
I am beginning to think that fascism is mostly a runaway media effect. 100 years ago it was the beginnings of mass-media being understood and incorporated into politics; now it is the internet.
It seems like something akin to witchcraft crazes on a truly horrifying scale.
I guess you could say the same in the US. Actual facts and critical discourse have to be actively sought out by people who actually care about these things while the vast majority are swimming in a sea of mainstream media noise.
aka people communicating as they have for thousands of years. People love making up stories and spreading them. We need to stop blaming software for human nature.
> the amount of fake news spread through WhatsApp — the liberal forums in India are filled with stories of how people are losing relationships or finding it difficult to digest the fact that their loved ones are close minded bigots.
Can’t understand what this means. Are you saying the liberal forums are full of people who are struggling with family members who are deluded by WhatsApp based fake news?
> Fascism is gaining in many parts of the world today. But the 'other' this time aren't Jews, they're Muslims.
As someone from a Muslim country, this comparison strikes me as facile and ignorant. It’s not just a group of people being viewed as “the other.” Even Muslim majority countries are facing challenges. In Bangladesh, the government is taking actions that people in western countries would probably liken to “fascism.” E.g. banning Muslim political parties. The problem these countries are grappling with is that they’re not just dealing with a group of people who happen to be different. There is a political ideology that crosses national borders and seeks to supplant existing institutions and governments. There is a lot of foreign money flowing into Bangladesh, to fund madrasas (schools) that teach hard line religion. Egypt and Turkey both fought these forces for decades, struggling to maintain secular, western institutions, and ultimately lost.
That is not to say that I don’t find Modi’s actions, or Bannon’s
rhetoric, etc., troubling. I do. It’s just that there is a lot more here than you can understand through shallow analogies or the lens of western politics.
With such a large percentage of the population of not just the country in question in the article, but also the entire world, I'm not sure they can be seen to be "the other" to the same degree as the Jews were, given how common they are.
In 1933, there were an estimated 15 million Jews worldwide[1], 9 million or so in Europe. In Germany, with the largest Jewish population, they accounted for less than 1% of the populace. In India today, Muslims account for close to 15% of the population. According to wikipedia, they're very close to 25% of the entire world population. There may be some vilification going on, but when the other group is as large as that, I doubt you can expect a similar outcome or as much of a one sided narrative in the places where it's attempted.
>Fascism is gaining in many parts of the world today. But the 'other' this time aren't Jews, they're Muslims.
This calls to mind the recent debates over Bill 21 in Quebec, that banned religious symbols for many government employees. It was clear that it was motivated by anti-Islamic sentiment, but it was disguised as a move toward "secularism".
Trump likes to target Mexicans too and openly has said he would like to be in Putin’s position with a dynasty. A surprising number of Americans are okay with this. Next election is going to be dramatic.
Then there’s China and its minorities being swept into mass concentration camps. Reminds me, I wonder what is happening in Hong Kong right now
It is actually happening for a while but for the last 5 years, it was done under the disguise of progressive leadership. Now that the economy is down the drain the people are waking up to see the true face of our leaders.
Thanks to the uneducated buffoon at the helm who faked his degree, didn't listen to Reserve Bank/Chief Economic Advisors and ruined the economy.
I actively read r/india and there hasn't been a single day for the past two months now that horrendous reports of Police rioting, looting, and killing civilians (predominantly Muslims) come up but is never reported by the main-stream media. There have been numerous cases where the ruling political party has mobilised its pro-violence groups with a free-reign to do as they please. Never has a public personality been in more fear of the governing apparatus since the times of the British Raj and so only a few have spoken up. Comedians focusing on social commentary say they frequently get messages of support and caution which they admittedly did not get prior to the right-wing taking charge at the center. The judiciary is in tatters, with judges frequently found to rule in favour of the ruling majority. The judges who allegedly rise up against the tide have been found dead in mysterious circumstances.
The Prime Minister doesn't engage in any debate and has been caught lying consistently. The ruling party has been found repeatedly guilty of spreading propaganda and fake news. Some of its leaders question even the founding principles of the country and openly support and revere Gandhi's assasinators and some hold no reservations against Nazism or Fascism. Activists have been unlawfully detained, tortured, and murdered. There were also alleged reports of Police raping 90+ young Muslim boys.
The current incumbent has not only managed to sell snake-oil to the Hindu populace but continues to harbor snakes to the detriment of the very Hindus that elected them to power: Most of them are in a state of denial about the grim situation breeding in India and some of them think it is an important lesson to be taught to the unruly Muslims. Perhaps, that'd explain why a convicted pro-Hindu terrorist won elections by a huge margin, and why a Hindu religious fanatic bordering on fascism rules the largest and most populous Indian state.
Friends have lost friends, families have divided over oppressive, regressive, populist, uncompromising politics of what's by far the richest ruling party. No one is safe from the propaganda machine, not even the educated, not even the ones in an industry as left-leaning and liberal as ours. It is as if someone has blind-folded them and I don't even know how and when it happened.
Fascism rose in popularity 100 years ago as a political option. Perhaps it is undergoing a renaissance. I have no idea why anyone thinks its a good idea unless you are the person in charge but it seems to attract support.
Because you probably live a comfortable life. For people who are struggling and see no hope of changing for better they often support more extreme policies just to "rock the boat". Years of rising inequality in many societies have created more people who'd like to have things change drastically.
>Fascism rose in popularity 100 years ago as a political option.
more generally totalitarism rose as that option with 2 major branches - either political class/party based, i.e. communism, or national/ethnical identity based, ie. fascism
>Perhaps it is undergoing a renaissance.
giving the increased technological opportunities for the totalitarism (and some, who didn't learn history, even argue - need - as totalitarism entice with seemingly easy solutions to a lot of modern issues) combined with knee-jerk "hide back into national village with good old traditional lifestyle" reaction to globalism it would be strange if we don't see the rise of nationally/xenophobically colored totalitaristic style tendencies.
> it seems to attract support.
populism is extremely natural and foundational to fascism as fascism panders to the perceived core identity of the subject mass of people.
>why anyone thinks
that is the point. Looking at videos and reading about the Nazi rallies, China Cultural Revolution events, USSR Great Purge and whole Stalin period, ... - it is pretty clear that it isn't the higher, the "thinking", level of the brain that gets to drive, it is that lizard part.
I think the precursors are very important in understanding this. In India, before the current Modi regime, there was a strong need for a strong leader. Congress (previous ruling party) suffers from Family rule and sycophants. Modi looked like a god-send to the masses. Now with a strong majority and into the 2nd term, the Fascist undertones are starting to emerge.
It preys directly on human psychology by creating myths about how life used to be great and invoking nostalgia and frustration in broken people who just need guidance. No one who likes fascism sees it the way normal people do, because it's designed to trick people and weed its way into collective society and psyche.
This is why we must make a continuous effort to stomp it before it spreads and never listen to people who call us silly for saying Modi is a fascist just because he isn't Hitler's level yet.
You are seeing symptoms of fascism not only in India, but pretty much everywhere. It did not sneak upon the world from some fringe underground overnight. No.
The world had 2 decades to wake up, and mop up that political faction.
I honestly don't know where the world is going now.
> Karthik: Right. Maybe you can give some other examples in the world. But he was celebrated when he was administering the occupation of Kashmir. But the moment he criticized the BJPs occupation of Kashmir, the moment he criticized it as reducing Kashmir to a “vassal state”, he’s been in prison.
> NC: In prison?
> Karthik: Yes, in prison, without charges.
This news article (https://m.economictimes.com/news/politics-and-nation/inx-med...) and several others seem to indicate that the Central Bureau of Investigation has filed a charge-sheet and that Chidambaram is out on bail right now.
The initial First Information/Incident Report was filed way back in May 2017.
Chidambaram and his entire family are a bunch of amoral kleptocrats. He laid the roots of the current Indian security state before Modi was elected. He is now being prosecuted for arm twisting and even blackmailing corporates into giving him money, shares etc. If there were any justice in this world, that man would die in a jail cell along with his son. Now your comment is implying that he is some persecuted liberal rights activist. This is either pretty clueless or a malicious attempt to sway opinions of people, who being outsiders, know nothing.
Here's a recent anarchist podcast on the subject. I note the political orientation because clearly that impacts the interpretation of the events, but it was an interesting listen, I thought:
I really struggle to understand the Indian right wing perspective. There is absolutely no practical way to achieve their goal of a theocratic nation with the country still being intact.
As much as they might want to fantasize about it, you can't wish away 200M minorities. Nor can you economically progress if 200M minorities are ghettoized.
I agree, though real economic progress doesn't seem like a priority for the government as can be witnessed by the slowdown and silly policies like demonetization.
The 200M Indian Muslims are already ghettoized. And they do not mix. RSS's vision of Hindu Majoritarian India is a constitutional democracy without any minority appeasement.
Strangely enough, anyone who is against globalism/neoliberalism is now being labeled as a fascist. Even on here, if you espouse free market ideas, you are instantly downvoted. Fascism has nothing to do with populism or the free market. It is a system where the government takes control of the economy. Don’t be fooled.
I think worldwide all proto-fascism is getting another turn at the wheels of power only because the neoliberal world order post USSR hasn't come up with any legitimate solutions that people feel need addressing. Whether it's wealth disparity, immigration (warranted or otherwise), or healthcare it seems as though we're stuck with old ideas that don't work out so well. Assuming markets and light touching regulations will fix these issues isn't going to be enough for anyone anymore. And I think the scary part is that if global warming isn't addressed sooner then I expect full blown eco-fascism become fashionable with some major parties. When (imo not really if anymore) that happens expect massive purges to happen. It hurts me so much to see this happen but if the neoliberals and social democrats can't offer an alternative them in their inaction others will rise to give options even if those are totally wrong for many reasons (moral, factual, spiritual, etc).
The right wing party in India came to power in 2014 in a perfect storm of a very popular leader and a pretty weak opposition. Opposition was further weakened electorally with demonetization right before elections in the most populous state of India (UP).
They were able to successfully capture most institutions (RBI, supreme courts, investigative agencies) in addition to capturing the media through corporate ownership.
Social media strategy and a massive disinformation campaign on Whatsapp proved extremely successful in the 2019 elections and the right wing party now has an even bigger majority with the opposition decimated.
Barring a turn in public approval (probably from a recession), they will continue to perform well unless opposition steps up their game.
There's more to democracy than opposition. I must remind you that the opposition was at the center of many a scams when it was in power. They're no good. There aren't very many better alternatives.
The citizens taking up to protests is the right way forward. The fascist ideals of the current incumbent is plain to see in these times of mass dissent. That's the point of worry here. Not opposition, not the ruling party, not the right-wing politics, per se; but the unsatiable thirst of a pro-violent party fronting a terrorist organisation to consolidate power with facist undertones.
What about BJP ticking/checking out election manifesto one by one and delivering. While Congress is just whining about everything with their ClownPrince pappu on the helm.
[+] [-] wtmt|6 years ago|reply
This is a big issue with mass media in India that many don’t realize or want to realize. Between — a) most of the mainstream media houses (except a few) not asking tough questions (but supporting the government for everything), b) the Supreme Court ignoring important cases and not hearing them for years and c) the amount of fake news spread through WhatsApp — the liberal forums in India are filled with stories of how people are losing relationships or finding it difficult to digest the fact that their loved ones are close minded bigots.
Twitter has become a cesspool of bots, political party “IT Cells” and people copy pasting the same messages and hashtags, while WhatsApp has become the main source of truth (actually falsehood) for most people.
[+] [-] _jal|6 years ago|reply
It seems like something akin to witchcraft crazes on a truly horrifying scale.
[+] [-] president|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] stackreality|6 years ago|reply
aka people communicating as they have for thousands of years. People love making up stories and spreading them. We need to stop blaming software for human nature.
[+] [-] throwawayhhakdl|6 years ago|reply
Can’t understand what this means. Are you saying the liberal forums are full of people who are struggling with family members who are deluded by WhatsApp based fake news?
[+] [-] Red_Leaves_Flyy|6 years ago|reply
I think there's lots of blame to go on companies like Cambridge analytica. That tech is literally a weapon of mass destruction.
[+] [-] jagannathtech|6 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] amriksohata|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Despegar|6 years ago|reply
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/12/09/blood-and-soil...
Fascism is gaining in many parts of the world today. But the 'other' this time aren't Jews, they're Muslims.
[+] [-] rayiner|6 years ago|reply
As someone from a Muslim country, this comparison strikes me as facile and ignorant. It’s not just a group of people being viewed as “the other.” Even Muslim majority countries are facing challenges. In Bangladesh, the government is taking actions that people in western countries would probably liken to “fascism.” E.g. banning Muslim political parties. The problem these countries are grappling with is that they’re not just dealing with a group of people who happen to be different. There is a political ideology that crosses national borders and seeks to supplant existing institutions and governments. There is a lot of foreign money flowing into Bangladesh, to fund madrasas (schools) that teach hard line religion. Egypt and Turkey both fought these forces for decades, struggling to maintain secular, western institutions, and ultimately lost.
That is not to say that I don’t find Modi’s actions, or Bannon’s rhetoric, etc., troubling. I do. It’s just that there is a lot more here than you can understand through shallow analogies or the lens of western politics.
[+] [-] kbenson|6 years ago|reply
In 1933, there were an estimated 15 million Jews worldwide[1], 9 million or so in Europe. In Germany, with the largest Jewish population, they accounted for less than 1% of the populace. In India today, Muslims account for close to 15% of the population. According to wikipedia, they're very close to 25% of the entire world population. There may be some vilification going on, but when the other group is as large as that, I doubt you can expect a similar outcome or as much of a one sided narrative in the places where it's attempted.
1: https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/jewish-pop...
[+] [-] noarchy|6 years ago|reply
This calls to mind the recent debates over Bill 21 in Quebec, that banned religious symbols for many government employees. It was clear that it was motivated by anti-Islamic sentiment, but it was disguised as a move toward "secularism".
[+] [-] ComputerGuru|6 years ago|reply
I just finished reading it, it took me the better part of an hour but it’s certainly worth the time.
[+] [-] jammygit|6 years ago|reply
Then there’s China and its minorities being swept into mass concentration camps. Reminds me, I wonder what is happening in Hong Kong right now
Edit: update on hk https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-01-22/hong-kong...
[+] [-] des_t|6 years ago|reply
Thanks to the uneducated buffoon at the helm who faked his degree, didn't listen to Reserve Bank/Chief Economic Advisors and ruined the economy.
[+] [-] ignoramous|6 years ago|reply
The Prime Minister doesn't engage in any debate and has been caught lying consistently. The ruling party has been found repeatedly guilty of spreading propaganda and fake news. Some of its leaders question even the founding principles of the country and openly support and revere Gandhi's assasinators and some hold no reservations against Nazism or Fascism. Activists have been unlawfully detained, tortured, and murdered. There were also alleged reports of Police raping 90+ young Muslim boys.
The current incumbent has not only managed to sell snake-oil to the Hindu populace but continues to harbor snakes to the detriment of the very Hindus that elected them to power: Most of them are in a state of denial about the grim situation breeding in India and some of them think it is an important lesson to be taught to the unruly Muslims. Perhaps, that'd explain why a convicted pro-Hindu terrorist won elections by a huge margin, and why a Hindu religious fanatic bordering on fascism rules the largest and most populous Indian state.
Friends have lost friends, families have divided over oppressive, regressive, populist, uncompromising politics of what's by far the richest ruling party. No one is safe from the propaganda machine, not even the educated, not even the ones in an industry as left-leaning and liberal as ours. It is as if someone has blind-folded them and I don't even know how and when it happened.
It is disheartening, to say the least.
[+] [-] cmonnow|6 years ago|reply
Check out r/indiaspeaks where dissenting opinions are not banned.
[+] [-] modi15|6 years ago|reply
How do you know that you are not a victim of the propaganda machine ? How did you keep yourself safe ?
[+] [-] seshagiric|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] coldcode|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] theseadroid|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] AnimalMuppet|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] cmonnow|6 years ago|reply
Facsism yesterday : Persecute minorities
Fascism today : Help persecuted minorities
Sounds good to me.
[+] [-] trhway|6 years ago|reply
more generally totalitarism rose as that option with 2 major branches - either political class/party based, i.e. communism, or national/ethnical identity based, ie. fascism
>Perhaps it is undergoing a renaissance.
giving the increased technological opportunities for the totalitarism (and some, who didn't learn history, even argue - need - as totalitarism entice with seemingly easy solutions to a lot of modern issues) combined with knee-jerk "hide back into national village with good old traditional lifestyle" reaction to globalism it would be strange if we don't see the rise of nationally/xenophobically colored totalitaristic style tendencies.
> it seems to attract support.
populism is extremely natural and foundational to fascism as fascism panders to the perceived core identity of the subject mass of people.
>why anyone thinks
that is the point. Looking at videos and reading about the Nazi rallies, China Cultural Revolution events, USSR Great Purge and whole Stalin period, ... - it is pretty clear that it isn't the higher, the "thinking", level of the brain that gets to drive, it is that lizard part.
[+] [-] seshagiric|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] _4ziu|6 years ago|reply
This is why we must make a continuous effort to stomp it before it spreads and never listen to people who call us silly for saying Modi is a fascist just because he isn't Hitler's level yet.
[+] [-] frsandstone|6 years ago|reply
(Sorry for the search pop-up, I'm not sure how to get a cached version without it.)
[+] [-] baybal2|6 years ago|reply
The world had 2 decades to wake up, and mop up that political faction.
I honestly don't know where the world is going now.
[+] [-] naresh_negi_kr|6 years ago|reply
This news article (https://m.economictimes.com/news/politics-and-nation/inx-med...) and several others seem to indicate that the Central Bureau of Investigation has filed a charge-sheet and that Chidambaram is out on bail right now. The initial First Information/Incident Report was filed way back in May 2017.
[+] [-] fellellor|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] scarecrowbob|6 years ago|reply
https://itsgoingdown.org/an-anti-colonial-anarchist-analysis...
[+] [-] fellellor|6 years ago|reply
Ok
[+] [-] known|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] spaceman_2020|6 years ago|reply
As much as they might want to fantasize about it, you can't wish away 200M minorities. Nor can you economically progress if 200M minorities are ghettoized.
[+] [-] random314|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] saq7|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] braindead_in|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jagannathtech|6 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] redpillor|6 years ago|reply
pak's isi is also funding paid stone pelting and protests.
[+] [-] 0x8BADF00D|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ladyattis|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] vsskanth|6 years ago|reply
They were able to successfully capture most institutions (RBI, supreme courts, investigative agencies) in addition to capturing the media through corporate ownership.
Social media strategy and a massive disinformation campaign on Whatsapp proved extremely successful in the 2019 elections and the right wing party now has an even bigger majority with the opposition decimated.
Barring a turn in public approval (probably from a recession), they will continue to perform well unless opposition steps up their game.
[+] [-] ignoramous|6 years ago|reply
The citizens taking up to protests is the right way forward. The fascist ideals of the current incumbent is plain to see in these times of mass dissent. That's the point of worry here. Not opposition, not the ruling party, not the right-wing politics, per se; but the unsatiable thirst of a pro-violent party fronting a terrorist organisation to consolidate power with facist undertones.
[+] [-] morekozhambu|6 years ago|reply
People must vote for progress.
[+] [-] jares777|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] cptaj|6 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] weirdstuff|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] goatinaboat|6 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] Koremat6666|6 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] x10s|6 years ago|reply