[AThrowAway99]

This is a throwaway account, but I'd like some advice on this very subject.

I recently ended a working relationship with a company that had a problem with 'not liking' me. I moved to another country to offer onsite services to this company, as I created the core (design and tech) of a product that unexpectedly performed very well and became the focus of their business. Unfortunately this meant throwing out years of work by their core team, the owners work included.

As I had only been working remotely and very part time till this point, I saw an understandable resentment toward me and addressed it head on with each of the team when I arrived onsite. I perhaps failed in this because I was met with nods, smiles, and a professional behaviour me most of the time but not friendship. I was actively excluded from team lunches for example. And I heard less than favourable rumours about me in the local community, a community I never worked in.

This is ok, to a point if a little hurtful. As it didn't impact my work, I thought just letting it go was a better approach. Many people had a secure job based on my work...thats probably my resentment talking but worth saying.

Anyway it came to a head when I asked for the money we agreed for my contribution. (I had held off charging till the company was on more solid ground) At this point I was quickly told that the owner created the thing I made for them. Not me. Then closed ranks and told me I was a bad friend, refusing to pay obviously.

I think being left out in the cold all this time was a good sign that the company as a whole was planing something like this. Not explicitly but something.

Did I do the right thing in leaving? Am I the 'bad friend'?

[Traster]

Sorry but you moved to country to work for company and you didn't have a contract to be paid for your work?

[AThrowAway99]

I have been paid for some of my work, just not the full amount.

I was and am a private contractor, labour was paid but not the IP transfer. Thats what brought it to a head, me asking for the fee.

[anotherman554]

You had a business relationship with them. You were not friends.

[AThrowAway99]

I did think we where both, this is 100% my mistake.

Not being bitter about it, rather I should have been more strict and not offered business favours for free. Things like not charging for late payments, relocation and so on. 100% my error.

[Ididntdothis]

The number one in a business relationship is to be clear about money issues. Friendship may come in addition. A lot of people think that asking for money will hurt the relationship but the opposite is true.

[AThrowAway99]

Yes I think this answers my question quite distinctly, asking for the agreed amount should not have resulted on what happened. Even if there is a misunderstanding on any side, it should have resulted in negotiations, not an immediate accusation and denial of work done.

It's all in all pretty disappointing.

[faeyanpiraat]

If you had a proper contract, talking to a lawyer should fix your payment issue.

As others have pointed it out they were not your friends in the first place.

I’m lucky as I have managed to gain a true friend through work, but it takes a lot of time spent together, I’m not sure if it is even possible remotely.

If you are remote ppl can also use you as a scapegoat for issues they have that you are not even remotely responsible for.

I’m sorry you had this experience.

[AThrowAway99]

It's clear something like this has happened. Writing it down and getting valuable feedback here is helping me with my self doubt. I'm always questioning all kinds of things about myself surrounding this. I didn't create the end product in a vacuum, many people contributed to it and it feels weird to state my importance over others.

Looks like it will be court at this point. I'm more worried about my career and reputation now.

[mech1234]

Did you eventually get paid?

Sounds like the old phrase "you can't understand something if your salary depends on not understanding it" applies. If the boss of the company spreads misinformation that impugned you, his reports will believe it.

[AThrowAway99]

No not yet, this is only weeks old at this point.

Yeah, after seeing the velocity in which I was told I created little of value for the company, I think the resentment and ego issues runs much deeper that I saw.

[tartoran]

Best thing is to try to understand and move on. It is possible that there's something you did or said or your attitude but it is also possible someone might be sabotaging you. By moving on and seeing whether these patterns repeat you can asses whether you have any blame at all. I've worked in a toxic environment and know how they affect the confidence. Second, no pay no play, it's a good sign to move on. On friendship: if you show a more humble side of yours people won't be afraid to be your friends. Sometimes people are intimidated by people who are better than them. Also eagerness friends turns people off, sometimes it's better to just smile and wait for friendships to happen naturally. Not sure if that was your case but it's a good thing to rummage on.

[AThrowAway99]

I totally agree, I've never been in this kind of situation before. I've managed teams before, worked as a grafter and everything in-between, my complains have always been technical in nature. Never personal, in fact quite the opposite.

My best guess is it was rooted in the resentment that an outsider created something (in a fraction of the time) that meant the disposal of years of their work. And this is no comment of the quality of their work at all, it was excellent. It just didn't strike a cord with audiences. This has happened to me many many times. Something along the lines of an unearned position.

So yes, I think although there is no reoccurring pattern of this. I could have been much more sensitive to this issue.

Thanks for this comment!

[thomk]

>> "(it was) a little hurtful"

>> "(I had held off charging till the company was on more solid ground)"

>> "Am I the 'bad friend'?"

Those comments are a red flag to me that you are confusing business with personal relationships, it will always cost you money. I'm curious to know what your upbringing was like. I am speaking from experience here. I'm not saying that you fit into this model (I don't know you), but, it has been my experience that people from codependent families tend to fall into this trap.You are a gifted programmer, but, you struggle to understand how to appropriately bond with people.

You are woking in the same physical space, you see them, you know about their lives and families so you assume because of that you are 'friends'. You may be friendly but you are not there together because you are friends. Your bond is that you all earn a living there, that's it. Later, you may become friends, but that takes time.

A better way to conduct yourself is to put on a 'work persona'.

You are not the same person in every situation right? You do not walk around town in your underwear like you might at home. You do not drink soup from a bowl in a restaurant like you might at home. You don't talk to your mother like you do a stranger right? You are many different people already. You may not consciously choose to change your speech when you talk to your mother or a baby or a dog or a cop or a stranger but you do it. So recognize that ability and use it.

Your work persona will have a different vocabulary, wardrobe, everything.

Your work persona should be professional but warm. Professional means good manners and doing what you are supposed to do even if you do not feel like it. It does not mean cold and without personality.

If you are acting like a professional you have every right to expect others to act like professionals and you should interact with them like they are a professional.

It is at this point (pro to pro) that the lack of payment should have come to a head. When you are not being paid, stop working. Do it in a friendly way, don't shout or storm out. Give a company a small grace period (maybe a week) but even that is pushing it. Then simply say to whoever you report to: I'm unable to work here without pay, I'm sorry. If you can pay me I will continue work. If they say "we will pay next week please keep working" You say: 'I will keep working next week when I am paid'.

Seriously, even if you GET THE FEELING like you aren't going to get paid (like you said) that is the point to start saying something.

Someone here mentioned a lawyer. Let me tell you something from experience, don't rely on that in place of speaking up. Even if you have an airtight contract written by the best lawyer in the country and everyone in the company signed and agreed to it, A CONTRACT IS NOT MONEY. In fact, enforcing that contract is going to cost you money. It costs $250 to sue someone in America and 99.9% of all lawsuits are settled before they go to trial. That means the only thing that matters is who has the most money to fight over the contract. If it is you (a person) versus your work (a company) you probably do not have the money to fight over a contract. Start speaking up early and leave if you aren't paid.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say what I actually think happened. I think you rewrote their code without explicitly being asked to do so. Programming is fun, you saw that you could make a big impact so you just did it yourself and it worked! However, from their perspective you did something they didn't actually ask you to do, so, they feel it doesn't have value. You also didn't press for payment which further fuels their feeling (not fact) that you did not contribute value.

Also, the product existed before you and there are a lot of people who make that product work regardless of who wrote it: sales, support, management. Remember that, they sure do.

If you are so talented that you can rewrite an entire production grade codebase: go work for someone who pays you or work for yourself.

Honestly, and I mean this in the most sincere empathetic way I know how to say it: you sound a bit inexperienced and a little immature. This experience will help you grow. Remember how it feels to be disrespected and not paid and use that horrible fucking feeling to protect yourself in the future. I'm not saying be jaded and cynical, I'm saying just act as a professional (especially when it is difficult to do so) and you will be amazed at how things like this stop happening.

One final point and I will hit 'reply' and count the downvotes: How long did it take you to be able to do what you do? A thousand hours? Five thousand? Ten? More?

Whatever it is: THAT is what you are selling; your experience.

It is confusing because programmers are used to just spending time at a computer without any expectation of being paid. We read and code and try things and chat online about it, all in a self-education mode learning on our own because it is fun. Then we go to work and, again, I sit at a desk, I open my favorite editor and write in my favorite language and I'm having fun again! I'm just in a different building. So when I don't get paid it actually feels kind of OK because I am used to doing this for free. Oy.

The difference is now that you are working for someone they are getting the benefit of all that sweat equity. Name another industry where someone has a thousand hours of experience and they are expected to work for free. It doesn't exist.

Ask for payment, you earned it. If you do not get paid on time then walk. If you see a coworker not getting his rightfully earned pay, that company is broken and if you don't move on you will eventually be next to not get paid.

You are a talented developer, businesses need talented developers so they hire them. After that, your experience there is largely up to you.

Be a professional and walk if you are not paid in timely manner. Always speak up for yourself, look out for yourself, and if you see others being treated poorly (and it's permitted) find another job.

[AThrowAway99]

Thanks so much for the time to write all this!

There are some great points here, but a few leaps.

Nope, not from a codependent family.

I did create the product (A game), I designed the game and designed a novel tech to run it. I was given an open brief and created this game based on my domain knowledge. It was meant to be part of a larger project but it got such a good response that it became the entire project.

I'm ok with people not being my friend and being professional. I'm unsettled by being singularly excluded and rumours spread about me.

My professionalism has been impeccable, beyond reproach even.

I did get payed, just not the full amount.

And I've got about 15 years behind me.

The things you've said that ring true are:

What you said about seeing another developer on the team getting paid far less than what they are worth. Yes I saw this, one of the middle managers let slip they thought he was a coward and would not leave because of poor pay. I foolishly ignored this sign, rather I tried to get them to increase his pay.

"CONTRACT IS NOT MONEY", oh yes! I know this very strongly. It is a concern, but my reputation is of more value here.

Because many people were involved in the game it feels odd to stand my ground, but I see no other alternative. And yes, I did walk the second there was a refusal to pay. I hope you don't get down voted too much here. Some good stuff!

[Psyladine]

Friends & money don't mix. If you are owed something, get it in writing, and get a lawyer.

Intra-group politics are magnified by the presence of potential earnings, and if you aren't savvy at the game, you're losing.

[AThrowAway99]

Yes, I usually agree.

We do have something in writing and my lawyer is taking it seriously. What bothers me, if a bigger name than I is claiming my work as his own, what impact that will have on my career?