The big telcos have always been horrible and they will never change. I used to work for a small provider in that industry and always hated USWest because of that experience. They will never change as long as they exist, whatever name they go by.
Good to see Maine has a law protecting privacy. I agree with other commenters that this kind of law should be broad-spectrum, affecting all businesses from telcos to lemonade stands.
My ISP is a municipal fiber provider with strong and proud Net Neutrality. Obviously NN isn't a privacy issue, but it's unlikely to pair with trying to sell personal data (of our own neighbors!) for cash.
In addition to consumer protection laws, strongly consider supporting local municipal FTTH. Compared to Comcast, I pay less money for unmetered symmetric gigabit, it's run by ordinary people (not comic book villains), and the money stays here in town. All it takes is determined civic engagement.
(And that includes voting out the people who support these attacks against people.)
For those that are unaware, if you live in California the recently passed CCPA (California Consumer Privacy Act) gives you a lot of new power to force companies to delete your data and let you opt-out of them selling it.
It's a little tedious since you have to do it with each company, but so far I've found that it largely works.
You can also do it for equifax, experian, and transunion (though when I tried equifax it was unsurprisingly broken).
You can either request the data they have on you, ask for it to be deleted (the parts they don't require for operation), or opt-out of resale.
This website [0] has a bunch of links to the CCPA pages for different companies. The better companies have enabled this ability for all users, but generally the companies you'd rather delete from have only enabled it for California.
Sounds like I have an equal first amendment right to publicly expose the personal cell phone numbers and home addresses of every lawyer, corporate executive, and lobbyist who think this is a good idea.
No you don't. Those folks are a different class of people than you, a better class, a class that deserves privacy - us peons aren't important enough to have to worry about that stuff.
That's what they'll argue anyway. They'll use different words, but whatever words they use will carry that message.
When I worked at a large telco/broadband provider in the 90s and onward such concepts of selling this data was forbidden and you'd get funny looks for suggesting it. Our leadership chain - comprised of a mixture of long tenured employees with mostly engineering backgrounds supported not wanting to sell this data as well. It wasn't until the mid 2000s when our leadership got swapped out with younger executives who'd do 2 year rotations across the company and were looking to do a fast big bang to wow others that would go down this road. It wasn't just selling data this new gang wanted, but DNS redirection (think for nxdomains), and ad insertion thru TCP seassion hijacking platforms. There were a number of startups who were happy to give us free gear to sniff & manipulate customer traffic and we'd get a cut of the ad money.
Sure. Just get the corporate entity to say a single word. No representatives. No notes. No proxies. No robots. No automated voices. The actual corporate legal entity. Not even the CEO. No clever stand-ins with same name.
Just one mouthed, audible word to confirm the entity can qualify for speech. Then we can consider "free speech" for that entity.
I can only dream this would hold up even as I know there are likely dozens of loopholes to render it irrelevant. Not to mention specific exceptions and allowances already in law.
What about the flip side of that. If the NYT prints a slanderous story about you, can you sue the deep-pocketed times, or do you have to go after the underpaid reporter?
I like where your head's at, but guardians speak on behalf of minors, lawyers speak on behalf of clients, and representatives speak on behalf of their electorate (in theory), so executives speaking on behalf of groups of employees isn't much different.
> “Maine's decision to impose unique burdens on ISPs' speech—while ignoring the online and offline businesses that have and use the very same information and for the same and similar purposes as ISPs—represents discrimination between similarly situated speakers that is impermissible under the First Amendment,” the lawsuit claimed.
I agree. The law should apply to everyone, not just ISPs.
That's not how "free speech" works. That right isn't violated by privacy protection laws.
Free speech states that a state isn't going to prosecute you directly for whatever you may say. But that doesn't mean you are free from the consequences of what you're saying.
Privacy protection simply states that any legal person who feels that your actions violated the consent they gave, is free to sue you via the legal system for compensation for damages incurred. Which has little if anything to do with free speech.
If a telco uses the "free speech" argument, they essentially argue "we're a media company and we are accountable for what we publish".
If we're discussing media companies, it's interesting to note that these pull the "freedom of press" card to defend divulging person or confidential information in news outlets.
At this point, the entire discussion becomes rather silly semantics.
Interestingly, many EU countries also have "secrecy of correspondence" enshrined as a fundamental principle into their constitutions. The U.S. does not:
>Free speech states that a state isn't going to prosecute you directly for whatever you may say. But that doesn't mean you are free from the consequences of what you're saying.
If you are punished by the government for what you say, are you not being prosecuted by the government for what you say? If we say that all one needs to do to be punished for saying the wrong thing is to enter into an agreement with another person, what is to stop Facebook from adding something to its EULA saying by using the services you are agreeing to not say anything out of line with what Facebook wishes?
It seems like the end result of this rationale is that we allow the government to enforce private agreements that compromise speech. Effectively meaning you can sign away your First Amendment rights.
The whole "doesn't mean you are free from the consequences of what you're saying" is meant in respect to how other people are treating you, not how the government is treating you (regardless if it is on behalf of another person).
There's a pretty big difference between the qualifiers used in the 1st and 4th Amendments.
The 1st begins with "Congress shall make no law.."
The 4th states "..shall not be violated"
This is important because the 1st restricts what the government can do, while the 4th restricts what anyone can do. In other words, Congress need not pass a law restricting the collecting and sale of private information because that activity is already banned by the 4th. This is a job for the courts.
I don't believe that's accurate. I've heard first hand from lawyers that the bill of rights guarantees protections from government action, not other citizens or entities like corporations. That's why, for example, we have to have laws that make it illegal for people to break into your home and steal stuff. Otherwise, we could just apply the 4th amendment.
No individual or company has to necessarily "respect" your first amendment right to free speech, as that is something that can only be violated by the government or a government affiliated entity for which these protections also apply.
First Amendment seems to mean whatever the hell we want it to mean, these days.
A group of gun's rights advocates marching in Virginia recently argued that not being allowed to brandish assault weapons at the capitol was violation of their "symbolic" speech.[0]
I'm just waiting for the point where someone tries to make the defense in court that shooting another person in the head was an exercise of their freedom of speech.
Great: furniture movers should also have the free speech right to talk about my address, describe all my possessions, etc.
I hire those assholes to transport my bits, unmodified except for TTL, from my endpoint to a peer, no more, no less. Since they have a de facto monopoly I don’t even have the ability to choose an alternative. This exploitative crap must be stopped.
Furniture movers do have that free speech right. It's completely kosher for them to chat with some friends in a bar about how weird your possessions are or how hard it was to get to your address. Maybe ISPs should have special restrictions the same way medical providers do, but there's no general principle that people who discover private things about you aren't allowed to talk about it.
I mean every platform is monetizing data. If the telcos are arguing 'google and facebook are the same as us, we should have the same business models' I kind of agree
Of course my version is that they're all common carriers and have to comply with some norms, but allowing platforms to do this but not telcos is potentially silly
Somewhat more information, including the plaintiffs (America's Communications Association, CTIA, NCTA, and USTelecom), in the referenced Ars Technica article:
California Constitution
ARTICLE I DECLARATION OF RIGHTS
SECTION 1.
All people are by nature free and independent
and have inalienable rights. Among these are
enjoying and defending life and liberty,
acquiring, possessing, and protecting property,
and pursuing and obtaining safety, happiness,
and privacy.
I previously worked under the umbrella of a major Canadian telecom (though in their media arm—radio, publishing, television).
I'd heard they gathered a large amount of data, but more to do with the trend of just hoovering up every bit possible and store it in their data lakes.
My understanding at the time is they had no idea what to do with it.
Some of these initiatives could be rooted in little more than some manager wanting to stamp `mined data lake using machine learning and AI to generate $(x) in $(m)`. It doesn't have to actually mean anything.
That said, maybe they've discovered a route to more revenue, hence the push.
edit: Should clarify this was in Canada when the linked article is about the US.
I would be fine with that argument if they could get media companies on board with fair use and more limited copyright again. At least that would be consistent logic, but that won't happen.
What monopoly? Here in Palo Alto I have full consumer “choice”: comcast or att.
I have to use crapcast (though goes down each night) as att, despite their ads, will only provision me 768kb DSL though I’m less than a mile from the CO/DSLAMS (and the PAIX for that matter)
I assume elsewhere the two companies have a deal where comcast is slow and att is faster. Of course the competition authorities and fcc are utterly supine.
Palo Alto used to run its own infrastructure but over the years stupid privatization has gradually shed phone, TV, garbage collection, parking enforcement and such for inferior, more expensive private services. I expect power and water to fall next.
How perverted. They claim that the entity has a right to free speech? And worse, that somehow that entitles them to do as they please? Is Alan Dershowitz behind this?
Panino|6 years ago
Good to see Maine has a law protecting privacy. I agree with other commenters that this kind of law should be broad-spectrum, affecting all businesses from telcos to lemonade stands.
My ISP is a municipal fiber provider with strong and proud Net Neutrality. Obviously NN isn't a privacy issue, but it's unlikely to pair with trying to sell personal data (of our own neighbors!) for cash.
In addition to consumer protection laws, strongly consider supporting local municipal FTTH. Compared to Comcast, I pay less money for unmetered symmetric gigabit, it's run by ordinary people (not comic book villains), and the money stays here in town. All it takes is determined civic engagement.
(And that includes voting out the people who support these attacks against people.)
DailyHN|6 years ago
gonehome|6 years ago
For Comcast: https://www.xfinity.com/support/articles/ccpa
It's a little tedious since you have to do it with each company, but so far I've found that it largely works.
You can also do it for equifax, experian, and transunion (though when I tried equifax it was unsurprisingly broken).
You can either request the data they have on you, ask for it to be deleted (the parts they don't require for operation), or opt-out of resale.
This website [0] has a bunch of links to the CCPA pages for different companies. The better companies have enabled this ability for all users, but generally the companies you'd rather delete from have only enabled it for California.
[0] https://caprivacy.github.io/caprivacy/
ouid|6 years ago
what, precisely, are the implications of this?
semerda|6 years ago
ipython|6 years ago
sophacles|6 years ago
That's what they'll argue anyway. They'll use different words, but whatever words they use will carry that message.
kitteh|6 years ago
rs23296008n1|6 years ago
Just one mouthed, audible word to confirm the entity can qualify for speech. Then we can consider "free speech" for that entity.
I can only dream this would hold up even as I know there are likely dozens of loopholes to render it irrelevant. Not to mention specific exceptions and allowances already in law.
Misdicorl|6 years ago
criddell|6 years ago
gumby|6 years ago
muro|6 years ago
briandear|6 years ago
mLuby|6 years ago
comis|6 years ago
I agree. The law should apply to everyone, not just ISPs.
turc1656|6 years ago
CaptArmchair|6 years ago
Free speech states that a state isn't going to prosecute you directly for whatever you may say. But that doesn't mean you are free from the consequences of what you're saying.
Privacy protection simply states that any legal person who feels that your actions violated the consent they gave, is free to sue you via the legal system for compensation for damages incurred. Which has little if anything to do with free speech.
If a telco uses the "free speech" argument, they essentially argue "we're a media company and we are accountable for what we publish".
If we're discussing media companies, it's interesting to note that these pull the "freedom of press" card to defend divulging person or confidential information in news outlets.
At this point, the entire discussion becomes rather silly semantics.
Interestingly, many EU countries also have "secrecy of correspondence" enshrined as a fundamental principle into their constitutions. The U.S. does not:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secrecy_of_correspondence
bluGill|6 years ago
SkyBelow|6 years ago
If you are punished by the government for what you say, are you not being prosecuted by the government for what you say? If we say that all one needs to do to be punished for saying the wrong thing is to enter into an agreement with another person, what is to stop Facebook from adding something to its EULA saying by using the services you are agreeing to not say anything out of line with what Facebook wishes?
It seems like the end result of this rationale is that we allow the government to enforce private agreements that compromise speech. Effectively meaning you can sign away your First Amendment rights.
The whole "doesn't mean you are free from the consequences of what you're saying" is meant in respect to how other people are treating you, not how the government is treating you (regardless if it is on behalf of another person).
34679|6 years ago
The 1st begins with "Congress shall make no law.."
The 4th states "..shall not be violated"
This is important because the 1st restricts what the government can do, while the 4th restricts what anyone can do. In other words, Congress need not pass a law restricting the collecting and sale of private information because that activity is already banned by the 4th. This is a job for the courts.
turc1656|6 years ago
No individual or company has to necessarily "respect" your first amendment right to free speech, as that is something that can only be violated by the government or a government affiliated entity for which these protections also apply.
AdmiralAsshat|6 years ago
A group of gun's rights advocates marching in Virginia recently argued that not being allowed to brandish assault weapons at the capitol was violation of their "symbolic" speech.[0]
I'm just waiting for the point where someone tries to make the defense in court that shooting another person in the head was an exercise of their freedom of speech.
[0]https://wtop.com/virginia/2020/01/gun-groups-want-firearms-b...
mfer|6 years ago
Do the big telco's remove the history of their own execs when selling it?
What would it cost for someone to buy the browsing histories of the execs at these companies ... or that of politicians and their staffs.
gumby|6 years ago
I hire those assholes to transport my bits, unmodified except for TTL, from my endpoint to a peer, no more, no less. Since they have a de facto monopoly I don’t even have the ability to choose an alternative. This exploitative crap must be stopped.
SpicyLemonZest|6 years ago
thepete2|6 years ago
awinter-py|6 years ago
Of course my version is that they're all common carriers and have to comply with some norms, but allowing platforms to do this but not telcos is potentially silly
kabdib|6 years ago
I could be wrong. I guess my point is, this is a double-edged sword, like most freedoms.
volgar1x|6 years ago
dredmorbius|6 years ago
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2020/02/isps-sue-maine-c...
m463|6 years ago
bryanrasmussen|6 years ago
on edit: obviously not because I'm not in the U.S but if I were?
kube-system|6 years ago
allovernow|6 years ago
52-6F-62|6 years ago
I'd heard they gathered a large amount of data, but more to do with the trend of just hoovering up every bit possible and store it in their data lakes.
My understanding at the time is they had no idea what to do with it.
Some of these initiatives could be rooted in little more than some manager wanting to stamp `mined data lake using machine learning and AI to generate $(x) in $(m)`. It doesn't have to actually mean anything.
That said, maybe they've discovered a route to more revenue, hence the push.
edit: Should clarify this was in Canada when the linked article is about the US.
brenden2|6 years ago
TallGuyShort|6 years ago
pnutjam|6 years ago
https://movetoamend.org/
ghastmaster|6 years ago
gumby|6 years ago
I have to use crapcast (though goes down each night) as att, despite their ads, will only provision me 768kb DSL though I’m less than a mile from the CO/DSLAMS (and the PAIX for that matter)
I assume elsewhere the two companies have a deal where comcast is slow and att is faster. Of course the competition authorities and fcc are utterly supine.
Palo Alto used to run its own infrastructure but over the years stupid privatization has gradually shed phone, TV, garbage collection, parking enforcement and such for inferior, more expensive private services. I expect power and water to fall next.
unknown|6 years ago
[deleted]
ptah|6 years ago
takk309|6 years ago
12xo|6 years ago
aswanson|6 years ago
auiya|6 years ago
xxpor|6 years ago
throwawaymanbot|6 years ago
[deleted]
clSTophEjUdRanu|6 years ago