This is such a basic issue that I don't understand why USPS or some other shipper w/ bricks-n-mortar haven't stepped up to offer some sort of package shipping certification.
If I was the seller it could work as simply as me bringing the item to a shipper who would take their own photos and weigh the items being packaged up as well as some check that the item is as being described to the recipient. In turn the shipper would get an extra fee.
For high value items (i.e. like OP's camera) it would certainly be in everyone's best interest and platforms like ebay, Facebook, Amazon could insist that all parties use this type of service or relinquish their ability to dispute.
I had the same exact experience the last time I sold on ebay, in 2017. I sold an $800 item. One day before the claim window closed, the buyer filed a claim saying it had never arrived and claiming they emailed me several times and I never responded. I submitted proof of delivery from UPS and pointed out the simple fact that I had received no messages from the buyer through ebay messaging. Ebay gave them a full refund and refused to speak to me about it. When I called them and waited on hold for several hours, they literally just hung up on me. I closed my ebay and paypal accounts and I’ll never use them again.
I have a similar story. I sold a brand new iPhone to someone on eBay who claimed it was reported as stolen and was not able to be used. Paypal refunded the buyer, and allowed them to keep the phone. Paypal account went negative, their internal collections started calling every day right away even though it was in dispute.
Even after providing proof that the IMEI was not reported as stolen, and them waiting weeks for the buyer to provide any proof (they didn't), they still sided with the buyer. I called for weeks, and finally after about two months, somehow the person on the phone was able to just issue a refund. I've not sold anything on Ebay since.
On top of that, when I had an issue with buying something through paypal, they used that ^ instance as a negative against me while on the phone. "Well I see you sold a stolen iPhone in the past..." was not something I was expecting to hear.
EBay in 2017 was a giant shitshow (and probably still is, but I don't use it anymore). Both their security and support are complete trash, even if you happen to be lucky (like me) and they reply quickly.
I woke up one morning to get an email notification thanking me for purchasing a back bumper, a wing, and a few other parts for a 2012 Hyundai Genesis, which I obviously don't have and neither have I made that purchase. The fraudster even put their real delivery address and name less than 20 miles away from where I lived (which I reverse searched and confirmed that the name was associated with that address). I immediately notified eBay about this, they refunded me the purchase, and asked me to change my password. I did all that, removed the perp's address from the account, but eBay didn't have a legitimate 2FA solution, so I was kinda out of luck here.
Lo and behold, the day after, I wake up to info on my account (name+address) changed again. They couldn't change the email, as I have 2FA on my email account, but they did everything they could aside from that with my eBay account. This repeated at least one more time afterwards. By the end of this saga, I just gave up and closed my eBay account after getting my refund.
I just did some googling, and it seems like eBay STILL doesn't support any form of 2FA aside from SMS-based one (which is exactly how, I suspect, they got into my account in the first place, as I didn't get my email compromised). What a shame, but oh well.
Stories like this are why I've never bought or sold anything on Ebay. They just seem like a genuinely shitty experience and I'd rather shell out extra cash to buy new or meet someone off craigslist as a bank.
I tried, once, to sell something on eBay. I specified clearly that I would only ship the item to the UK. Someone bought it with a shipping address in Portugal. I refused to ship it. eBay "rejected" my refusal. I sold it on Gumtree instead. eBay charged me success fees for the item, since it had "sold". eBay refused to communicate with me about refunding these success fees, so I filed a chargeback with my credit card company. eBay closed my account because of the chargeback.
Similar thing happened to me with PayPal, buyer got to keep the item, and got a refund (by doing a chargeback on their CC) and I got billed the amount + 15% of fees and punishment.
I provided exhausting proof of delivery and that there was no contact or complaints from the buyer, but they didn't care. They said, since it's a chargeback, they HAVE to give them their money back. The buyer was a client of Commonwealth Bank of Australia.
Ironically, when I tried doing a chargeback on a transaction as a buyer, I got denied after waiting for 30 days for a reply, and had to pay a fee for an "untruthful claim". The bank is Erste Bank in Serbia. In my opinion my claim was valid, as the seller did not reply to me at all.
And that's your problem. If you deny a return within the return period, you're in violation of Amazon policy, and the A-Z team will rightly rule against you. The correct response is to accept the return, then deny a refund after it comes back to you because it wasn't sent back with the same accessories you sent it with.
> S-2.2 Cancellations, Returns, and Refunds. The Amazon Refund Policies for the applicable Amazon Site will apply to Your Products. Subject to Section F-6, for any of Your Products fulfilled using Fulfillment by Amazon, you will promptly accept, calculate, and process cancellations, returns, refunds, and adjustments in accordance with this Agreement and the Amazon Refund Policies for the applicable Amazon Site
I came here to say this also. You can’t reject the return, you need to accept it and then it’s on the buyer to return the item to you.
If it comes back with parts missing, you can do a partial refund. Buyer can still do an A-Z claim, but you’re in a much stronger position, especially if you have proof of how you sent it and how you received it.
Wouldn't that be a good small claims court case? There's good documentation that the item has been shipped, and the seller is out of both the money and the camera.
I have heard many stories online where customers bought new graphic cards/cpus/camera gear from 'Sold by Amazon.com' but instead receive used ones. Or receive different cheaper (older generation) products.
It does not seem to be a good place to buy or sell expensive items.
Did you sell it as used? If you opened the package and touched the product it can no longer be sold as new. I have called out sellers on this crap before and gotten my money back. When I order new I expect a factory sealed box. (Also illegal in the US https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/16/20.1 )
So assuming you sold this as used, that sucks I feel for you. However if your one of those scumbags who sells used things on Amazon as new I have no sympathy and I would happily report you for my money back. (I have encountered this maybe twice in all the electronics I buy on Amazon)
If you want to sell used things you have opened, flag them as such on Amazon or go to Ebay. I buy from both places and will always take a deal on a cheaper gently used item if its disclosed up front.
Edit: For clarity, FTA > "To this day, I have no idea what he claimed was “missing” from the package. I even included all the original plastic wrap!"
He opened a factory box and unwrapped the product. How else would he photograph all the parts with the kit?
Is Amazon even supposed to be a reasonable place for small scale sellers to try to operate? The entire mechanism of credit cards and large scale markets is based on the idea that you reduce user friction in order to get more sales en aggregate. Can you imagine Best Buy caring "Visa let a fraudster keep the refrigerator they purchased from us and even refunded them $3000"? Something like that probably happens every week. If you care about every individual sale you need entirely different sales apparatus and pipeline than something like Amazon, for whom we have also heard stories recently here on HN of them shipping multiple items to someone and just telling the customer not to bother returning it as it will be more trouble for everyone than it is really worth it to them.
Does emailing the CEO really work? If I contact regular Amazon support, I end up talking to a bot presumably since their employee time is so valuable. But I can just hit up Jeff like it's no big deal?
Honestly asking, there might be some special team to go through the [email protected] emails.
It is unlikely that your email catches his(his team's) attention. However, if it does, rest assured that he will shake things up to fix the root cause of the issue and likely get the team to refund your money as well.
> If you’re going to sell on Amazon or elsewhere, take an actual video of you packing the camera. You need all the defense you can get against items mysteriously disappearing.
Isn't this evidence just as bad as the buyer's account that he didn't receive any accessories? One could just unpack the box right after filming.
> Isn't this evidence just as bad as the buyer's account that he didn't receive any accessories?
No, of course not. Buyer didn't provide any details about what was missing or what was received. This isn't a level he-said/she-said, it's one party being forthcoming and the other evasive. Both parties had equal opportunity to lie, but only one put in effort to appear honest. Amazon should at least hold their scammers to a higher standard.
I think this every time someone suggests filming part of the transaction. Nowhere does video of an action imply that it was not immediately undone right after filming.
pack in fedex store, film handing it over to store employee and keep filming until they scan the box in. their tracking will show them receiving box. at that point it is in their custody and you are not getting it back so you cannot re-open it.
Similar thing happened to me with eBay and PayPal. I sold a Marantz CD player, well packaged, took plenty of pictures. Buyer claimed that the RCA connectors were "slightly bent" (he refused to send pictures of that - but it's a normal thing, there's some PCB flex) and that there was a scratch on a certain side that I hadn't photographed, using this to imply that I wanted to hide the scratch.
I offered him to return the item even at my expense, he refused. He threatened of negative feedback, made a claim with PayPal and got half the amount back pretty much instantly, and kept the item of course.
Since this I've decided that when I don't need something anymore I'm just better off donating it or simply trashing it. Dealing with dishonest buyers and everyone siding with them by default is just not worth the hassle.
Startup idea: create a high quality camera gear buying and selling experience for the web, with many protections and conveniences built in. Selling your gear on Craigslist and meeting with random strangers at McDonald's and Starbucks is pretty much the only real alternative right now and gets old pretty fast.
This was an issue for music gear too, but somehow reverb.com managed to address it and make it a pretty painless experience. Their customer service is excellent, and if one of the two parties are unsatisfied, they'll intervene and try to find a compromise. They send you boxes to ship your gear in, they set up shipping for you, they automatically track the shipment as it gets picked up etc. I've been hoping to find something similar for camera gear, but have had no luck so far.
The only downside is that the prosumer camera equipment world seems to be rapidly shrinking, so it might be not a great idea to step into this space right now. Whereas there doesn't seem to be a dearth of people buying guitars, drum kit pieces and effects pedals.
I totally get the frustration and such, and not trying to protect Amazon, but: author's web site intercepting browser history to trigger "checkout this content before you leave" when back navigation is clicked is outright evil. Just don't do that, be kind to visitors.
Edit:
1. Dictionary: evil, adj.: morally bad, cruel, or very unpleasant
2. To get the prompt you need to stay around on the page for a while, scroll around, pretend to read it. Triggers at least in mobile chrome browser.
Sad story, though not uncommon. I heard many eBay horror stories involving buyers' scams.
Frankly, selling anything on Amazon is crazy. But if you do have to, vet your buyer. Look at their previous purchases and feedbacks. Avoid the quick deal that will blow in your face.
The bottom line is that eBay (and Amazon too) are more focused on the buyers. Buying on eBay is great, because you have 100% buyer protection. There's no seller protection at all.
I'd recommend sticking to either local selling apps (like Craigslist etc.) where you can verify the buyer (though stay safe and do it somewhere public), or through online communities that manage access and feedbacks (there are several on Reddit and Facebook).
There is no perfect system that protects buyers and sellers. Change the rules and buyers will be complaining. The reason it is skewed towards buyers is:
1) who in there right mind would buy something online where there is no protection (sellers aren't the same as they have to sell somewhere to make a living).
2) most buyers are honest who just want their item. Profiting from fraud as a buyer is a lot more work as they need to resell the item to gain currency, which is risky (both from exposing themselves to stolen item investigations as well as being a victim of fraud themselves as a seller).
3) imagine if sellers could just ship rocks to buyers instead of cameras without consequence. Every scammer and his dog would be in on the gig without 5 seconds. (1) becomes even more bleak.
The general view is sellers need to take fraud into their overall operating expense budget, just like department stored do with shoplifting.
Similar story on eBay. I shipped ≈10k worth of goods to a buyer. He tore a hole in the box and claimed half of the contents were missing, after signing for the package. Despite this eBay refunded his money and refused to listen to our story until we took it to Twitter and pinged some high level manager.
I'm getting ads that state if I buy the ad-purchaser's product on Amazon and leave a good review, they'll refund my money. Basically, they're ads that say "Free [Product]!" and when you click them, they ask you to purchase the product, leave a positive review and then they'll refund you.
I tried to look for a way to report the seller to Amazon, but from what I found, I need to have a seller account with Amazon to do so, which I don't. As a customer, I can't report the product without buying it first. Does anyone have a link or email I can use to reach out to someone at Amazon about this?
Some of these products have thousands of positive reviews[1]. I find it misleading, and to be a nuisance to consumers who rely on these reviews to guide their purchases. I don't know why Amazon makes it so difficult to report these fraud schemes.
Since I found it difficult to reach out to Amazon, I reported the seller to my state Attorney General's consumer protection division and to the FTC. Since then, I've gotten even more ads like this, and I don't have the time to report them all to agencies that may or may not follow up on my reports.
Ultimately when you mail something there is no way to prove what you mailed. You can mail a brick and say it was a camera or you can mail a camera and the buyer can say it was a brick. There’s an opportunity here for companies with big real estate footprints like UPS store or Office Depot to offer verified shipping and/or receiving, where you hand them the items and they pack them up and ship them with a certification of what’s inside.
Good but not scam-proof, there can be a brick in a camera case in a box. The verified shipping says camera in a box. I don't really mean brick here but the item could be a defective item, a different model or something the verification process could miss.
I got ripped off on eBay where the fraudster kept my gas RC car and got the refund. It was only $300, but I haven’t sold anything on the internet that I wouldn’t be uncomfortable giving away since.
[+] [-] canada_dry|6 years ago|reply
If I was the seller it could work as simply as me bringing the item to a shipper who would take their own photos and weigh the items being packaged up as well as some check that the item is as being described to the recipient. In turn the shipper would get an extra fee.
For high value items (i.e. like OP's camera) it would certainly be in everyone's best interest and platforms like ebay, Facebook, Amazon could insist that all parties use this type of service or relinquish their ability to dispute.
Too over simplified??
[+] [-] ebaySucks123|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] JoshGlazebrook|6 years ago|reply
Even after providing proof that the IMEI was not reported as stolen, and them waiting weeks for the buyer to provide any proof (they didn't), they still sided with the buyer. I called for weeks, and finally after about two months, somehow the person on the phone was able to just issue a refund. I've not sold anything on Ebay since.
On top of that, when I had an issue with buying something through paypal, they used that ^ instance as a negative against me while on the phone. "Well I see you sold a stolen iPhone in the past..." was not something I was expecting to hear.
[+] [-] filoleg|6 years ago|reply
I woke up one morning to get an email notification thanking me for purchasing a back bumper, a wing, and a few other parts for a 2012 Hyundai Genesis, which I obviously don't have and neither have I made that purchase. The fraudster even put their real delivery address and name less than 20 miles away from where I lived (which I reverse searched and confirmed that the name was associated with that address). I immediately notified eBay about this, they refunded me the purchase, and asked me to change my password. I did all that, removed the perp's address from the account, but eBay didn't have a legitimate 2FA solution, so I was kinda out of luck here.
Lo and behold, the day after, I wake up to info on my account (name+address) changed again. They couldn't change the email, as I have 2FA on my email account, but they did everything they could aside from that with my eBay account. This repeated at least one more time afterwards. By the end of this saga, I just gave up and closed my eBay account after getting my refund.
I just did some googling, and it seems like eBay STILL doesn't support any form of 2FA aside from SMS-based one (which is exactly how, I suspect, they got into my account in the first place, as I didn't get my email compromised). What a shame, but oh well.
[+] [-] pdxbigman|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] _-___________-_|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] amatecha|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] milankragujevic|6 years ago|reply
Ironically, when I tried doing a chargeback on a transaction as a buyer, I got denied after waiting for 30 days for a reply, and had to pay a fee for an "untruthful claim". The bank is Erste Bank in Serbia. In my opinion my claim was valid, as the seller did not reply to me at all.
[+] [-] ikeboy|6 years ago|reply
And that's your problem. If you deny a return within the return period, you're in violation of Amazon policy, and the A-Z team will rightly rule against you. The correct response is to accept the return, then deny a refund after it comes back to you because it wasn't sent back with the same accessories you sent it with.
[+] [-] stordoff|6 years ago|reply
https://sellercentral.amazon.com/gp/help/external/G1791
> What should I do if a buyer wants to return an item?
> All Amazon sellers are required to accept returns.
https://sellercentral.amazon.com/gp/help/external/G200495860
[+] [-] lukevdp|6 years ago|reply
If it comes back with parts missing, you can do a partial refund. Buyer can still do an A-Z claim, but you’re in a much stronger position, especially if you have proof of how you sent it and how you received it.
[+] [-] jfim|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] node1|6 years ago|reply
It does not seem to be a good place to buy or sell expensive items.
[+] [-] crmrc114|6 years ago|reply
So assuming you sold this as used, that sucks I feel for you. However if your one of those scumbags who sells used things on Amazon as new I have no sympathy and I would happily report you for my money back. (I have encountered this maybe twice in all the electronics I buy on Amazon)
If you want to sell used things you have opened, flag them as such on Amazon or go to Ebay. I buy from both places and will always take a deal on a cheaper gently used item if its disclosed up front.
Edit: For clarity, FTA > "To this day, I have no idea what he claimed was “missing” from the package. I even included all the original plastic wrap!" He opened a factory box and unwrapped the product. How else would he photograph all the parts with the kit?
[+] [-] jacquesm|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Ensorceled|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tempestn|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] OrgNet|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] saurik|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] CamelCaseName|6 years ago|reply
If you're going to sell on Amazon, use FBA.
A-z claims cannot be filed on FBA orders.
If this is in fact your last sale on Amazon, and you no longer intend to do business with them, email [email protected] as a last resort.
Keep in mind, that email should not be used lightly. Be succinct and stoic. Provide proof that you have done everything else to resolve the matter.
[+] [-] politelemon|6 years ago|reply
https://services.amazon.co.uk/services/fulfilment-by-amazon/...
[+] [-] GuardLlama|6 years ago|reply
A popular PetaPixel post that gets coverage on additional social platforms is your only form of recourse against Amazon.
[+] [-] lucasmullens|6 years ago|reply
Honestly asking, there might be some special team to go through the [email protected] emails.
[+] [-] jasd|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] csours|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sevenf0ur|6 years ago|reply
Isn't this evidence just as bad as the buyer's account that he didn't receive any accessories? One could just unpack the box right after filming.
[+] [-] wtallis|6 years ago|reply
No, of course not. Buyer didn't provide any details about what was missing or what was received. This isn't a level he-said/she-said, it's one party being forthcoming and the other evasive. Both parties had equal opportunity to lie, but only one put in effort to appear honest. Amazon should at least hold their scammers to a higher standard.
[+] [-] _underfl0w_|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dmitrygr|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] uberduber|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] laurentdc|6 years ago|reply
I offered him to return the item even at my expense, he refused. He threatened of negative feedback, made a claim with PayPal and got half the amount back pretty much instantly, and kept the item of course.
Since this I've decided that when I don't need something anymore I'm just better off donating it or simply trashing it. Dealing with dishonest buyers and everyone siding with them by default is just not worth the hassle.
[+] [-] akurilin|6 years ago|reply
This was an issue for music gear too, but somehow reverb.com managed to address it and make it a pretty painless experience. Their customer service is excellent, and if one of the two parties are unsatisfied, they'll intervene and try to find a compromise. They send you boxes to ship your gear in, they set up shipping for you, they automatically track the shipment as it gets picked up etc. I've been hoping to find something similar for camera gear, but have had no luck so far.
The only downside is that the prosumer camera equipment world seems to be rapidly shrinking, so it might be not a great idea to step into this space right now. Whereas there doesn't seem to be a dearth of people buying guitars, drum kit pieces and effects pedals.
[+] [-] abbot2|6 years ago|reply
Edit:
1. Dictionary: evil, adj.: morally bad, cruel, or very unpleasant
2. To get the prompt you need to stay around on the page for a while, scroll around, pretend to read it. Triggers at least in mobile chrome browser.
[+] [-] Sohcahtoa82|6 years ago|reply
EDIT: Also, I think "outright evil" is a bit strong. A dark pattern for sure, but not quite evil.
[+] [-] unreal37|6 years ago|reply
You didn't get hurt by this.
[+] [-] bcrosby95|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] draw_down|6 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] TravelTechGuy|6 years ago|reply
Frankly, selling anything on Amazon is crazy. But if you do have to, vet your buyer. Look at their previous purchases and feedbacks. Avoid the quick deal that will blow in your face.
The bottom line is that eBay (and Amazon too) are more focused on the buyers. Buying on eBay is great, because you have 100% buyer protection. There's no seller protection at all.
I'd recommend sticking to either local selling apps (like Craigslist etc.) where you can verify the buyer (though stay safe and do it somewhere public), or through online communities that manage access and feedbacks (there are several on Reddit and Facebook).
[+] [-] tus88|6 years ago|reply
1) who in there right mind would buy something online where there is no protection (sellers aren't the same as they have to sell somewhere to make a living).
2) most buyers are honest who just want their item. Profiting from fraud as a buyer is a lot more work as they need to resell the item to gain currency, which is risky (both from exposing themselves to stolen item investigations as well as being a victim of fraud themselves as a seller).
3) imagine if sellers could just ship rocks to buyers instead of cameras without consequence. Every scammer and his dog would be in on the gig without 5 seconds. (1) becomes even more bleak.
The general view is sellers need to take fraud into their overall operating expense budget, just like department stored do with shoplifting.
[+] [-] allovernow|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] heavyset_go|6 years ago|reply
I tried to look for a way to report the seller to Amazon, but from what I found, I need to have a seller account with Amazon to do so, which I don't. As a customer, I can't report the product without buying it first. Does anyone have a link or email I can use to reach out to someone at Amazon about this?
Some of these products have thousands of positive reviews[1]. I find it misleading, and to be a nuisance to consumers who rely on these reviews to guide their purchases. I don't know why Amazon makes it so difficult to report these fraud schemes.
Since I found it difficult to reach out to Amazon, I reported the seller to my state Attorney General's consumer protection division and to the FTC. Since then, I've gotten even more ads like this, and I don't have the time to report them all to agencies that may or may not follow up on my reports.
[1] https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07NRGR9LL
[+] [-] freepor|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] onemoresoop|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] zxcmx|6 years ago|reply
Scammy buyer would purchase say, 32GB sticks of RAM and ship back 1GB sticks with the stickers swapped.
[+] [-] BooneJS|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] matsemann|6 years ago|reply
[0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14993216
[+] [-] CamelCaseName|6 years ago|reply
As a general rule, if the main differentiating feature of the product is hard to verify, or if the product is expensive and easy to resell, stay away.